Supreme Court says no women need apply to Golf Club. Mod warning post 119

Cadiz

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well as you've so kindly proved, your taxes aren't going towards them. And more importantly, they're not paying for the bad man's golf clubs:rolleyes:

Still having trouble reading eh? And you have some kind of 'bad man' complex to boot you say? Poor thing - maybe you should take up golf, it sounds like it's tailor made for you!

And the fresh air might improve your eyesight even

Zulu

Cadiz wrote: »

Still having trouble reading eh? And you have some kind of 'bad man' complex to boot you say?

Funny, he doesn't state he has a 'bad man' complex - yet you accuse him of bad eye sight.

phasers

Men can ban me from whatever they want, I get cheaper car insurance on my special lady car plan.


Private establishments have the right to admit whoever they want, these bitches need to stop whining

Dragan

Gyalist wrote: »

Last week, the big brouhaha in the US was over female White House staff not being invited to play basketball with the President. As usual, the women didn't care but it was other men using it as an excuse to attack the President.

Nobody wants to see Obama checking a little female staffer on defense.

In fairness to him, the guy can play and isn't a stranger to throwing sneaky elbows.

midlandsmissus

Men and golf. Men and golf. It's one of those things that make them feel 'like a man'.
Men are much more desperately insecure than women are. They need to constantly reassure themselves that they are manly.
As a consequence of this they don't like women doing what they see as 'manly' things.

I've played golf all my life, love it. Played with men a few times, and never have again, as it just isn't fun. They hate the fact that a woman can play golf. One said to me why wasn't I on the pitch and Putt course, he couldnt believe that I actually wanted to and could play 18 holes.

Manic Moran

After having read the opinions (both the judgement and the dissent, which took a while, they're not very light reading), I'm inclined to say that I am more convinced by the majority opinion. As a matter of logic and practicality, the Equality Act should not (cannot) be read as barring the actions of the Portmarnock Golf Club.

NTM

Eoin

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Men and golf. Men and golf. It's one of those things that make them feel 'like a man'.
Men are much more desperately insecure than women are. They need to constantly reassure themselves that they are manly.
As a consequence of this they don't like women doing what they see as 'manly' things.

I've played golf all my life, love it. Played with men a few times, and never have again, as it just isn't fun. They hate the fact that a woman can play golf. One said to me why wasn't I on the pitch and Putt course, he couldnt believe that I actually wanted to and could play 18 holes.

And, once again, women do play golf in the club. But, to be honest, I think your patronising and condescending response is better than the moral outrage over an issue that doesn't really seem to affect anyone.

GreeBo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's one of those things that make them feel 'like a man'.

I've played golf all my life

Ah so you want to feel like a man...now I get it.
At first I thought your post was pure sexist drivel, but now I get it!:rolleyes:

WindSock

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you state something as fact, generally it's up to you to back it up, not for someone else to disprove your theory.*

*In response to windsock.

edit: Unless you're a Christian of course.

Zulu wrote: »

So you've got no proof at all, do you?

Back up? What sort of back up or proof do you need? Stats are available from CSO and other publications, but I thought it was a fairly obvious point. Same as the harrassment theory for which you demanded stats for previously.

shoegirl

Cadiz wrote: »

Portmarnock hasn't had funding from any exchequer source more recently mainly because of its membership policy.

And rightfully so. I would hope that the reversal of that ruling would neither encourage other clubs to follow suit or resume promotion of or tax reliefs/grants for this club.

I do feel that there was a little bit of fudge over the clubs "purpose" though. Surely if the club lets women play as a reduced status of member and actually is called a "golf club" then it is a "golf club" and not a "mens club"? When is a golf club not a golf club?

Its certainly a wee bit uncertain.

That said I've no issue with groups excluding or restricting membership as long as they get no tax exemptions or public funding for doing so.

WindSock

eoin wrote: »

Yeah, but it's about picking your battles. This is about a private club where stuffy middle aged men talk shìte to each other. Who on earth would want to force themselves into that environment in the first place!

No one. You said yourself, no woman even wants to be a member (that you know of).

I don't mind gentlemans clubs. If that's what it says on the tin, then I really don't see why any woman would bother wanting to join. I think most women respect that men want to be with other men sometimes. It's when it is a law, or a court order or a policy, then there is something a bit shitty there.

But how much of that is because men's paternity leave doesn't exist in Ireland? If parental leave was transferable (I think they have a similar scheme in some parts of Germany), then perhaps that trend would change. To be blunt, I can't understand how women can't expect a downside to being able to take the guts of a year off, when men can only take their annual leave.

I believe it is transferable here, but not too sure. Maybe a poster more learned the subject can confirm or deny?
What I do know is that fathers have less rights than mothers here. Maybe the time effort and money spent to keep women out of their club would have been better spent on this issue.

The flip side of the coin is positive discrimination. My cousin works for the Met Police, and as a hetero white male, his promotion opportunities are severely hampered.

I don't agree with positive discrimination, I think it is discrimination all the same but you have to ask why it is there to begin with?

dr.bollocko

Personally I prefer snooker.

Zulu

WindSock wrote: »

Back up? What sort of back up or proof do you need?

Well anything relavent other than hearsay and misandrist or prejudice opinion would be a welcome start.

WindSock

Zulu wrote: »

Well anything relavent other than hearsay and misandrist or prejudice opinion would be a welcome start.

So it's misandry to say that straight white middle class males are the dominant culture in this country?

If that's the case then you left out homophobic, racist and classist too.

Zulu

WindSock wrote: »

If that's the case then you left out homophobic, racist and classist too.

Well no doubt it's them as well, however, the point stands: no evidence provided to your assertion.

One can only conclude that your point was horseshit. Now you are welcome to, as invited on more than one occasion, to provide proof or evidence to back up your assertions.

It occurs to me that so long as we're prejudicing white men, it's grand to spout anything we like without providing any proof. However, should that man also fall into another category - Roma, traveller, Polish, or if it's a woman we're prejudicing, any comment needs to be backed up with a series of links and studies.

Eoin

WindSock wrote: »

No one. You said yourself, no woman even wants to be a member (that you know of).

Actually just to be honest about it, I just said that the equality authority have not received a complaint.

WindSock wrote: »

I believe it is transferable here, but not too sure. Maybe a poster more learned the subject can confirm or deny?

Unfortunately, men will only get maternity leave should the mother die within 24 weeks of birth. link. A colleague of mine works in Eastern Germany, and I think he was able to take his wife's second maternity leave so she could go back to work as soon possible. That's the sort of career/life balance that is needed I feel.

WindSock wrote: »

Maybe the time effort and money spent to keep women out of their club would have been better spent on this issue.

They should never have had to defend their right to association in the first place. Maybe the equality authority could have spent their time and money better.

WindSock wrote: »

I don't agree with positive discrimination, I think it is discrimination all the same but you have to ask why it is there to begin with?

I don't even have to ask, it's clear there was a serious imbalance which is still working its way out, but I think that enforcing quotas is not the way forward.

Anyway, the employment / paternity stuff is a bit off topic.

shoegirl wrote:

I do feel that there was a little bit of fudge over the clubs "purpose" though. Surely if the club lets women play as a reduced status of member and actually is called a "golf club" then it is a "golf club" and not a "mens club"? When is a golf club not a golf club?

What about nightclubs or restaurants that have private members, but where the public can still eat/drink? Sort of similar.

WindSock

Zulu wrote: »

Well no doubt it's them as well, however, the point stands: no evidence provided to your assertion.

One can only conclude that your point was horseshit. Now you are welcome to, as invited on more than one occasion, to provide proof or evidence to back up your assertions.

Invited? Thats a nice word. I wouldn't call it that. Demanded with hostility is a more suitable phrase. I don't really feel like looking on the CSO website to back up my point to you, Zulu. I already looked up something else for you before. It seems like you are the one with a point to prove, not just me.

It occurs to me that so long as we're prejudicing white men, it's grand to spout anything we like without providing any proof. However, should that man also fall into another category - Roma, traveller, Polish, or if it's a woman we're prejudicing, any comment needs to be backed up with a series of links and studies.

Saying that a certain demographic in this country is socially dominant is prejudiced now?

Yes, all Irish men are lazy beggars and are only here to scrounge and steal and take jobs from us wimmins...

midlandsmissus

GreeBo wrote: »

Ah so you want to feel like a man...now I get it.
At first I thought your post was pure sexist drivel, but now I get it!:rolleyes:

Do you know what I really laughed at this. The amount of anti - women jokes there is to be found on after hours, and yet when it's turned on you you go ballistic. Give me a break.

Zulu

WindSock wrote: »

Invited? Thats a nice word. I wouldn't call it that. Demanded with hostility is a more suitable phrase.

Well, feel free to dress it up whatever way you prefer, I honestly don't mind.

I don't really feel like looking on the CSO website to back up my point to you, Zulu.

Well feel free to look to other sites, I wouldn't restrict your source - if you have one. But it appears you don't.
I'm guessing that's the real reason you won't previde proof - you have none. Ergo, you were talking rubbish.

Yes, all Irish men are lazy beggars and are only here to scrounge and steal and take jobs from us wimmins...

Well it's nice to know how you really feel, however, it is quite a biased opinion. You'll probably find that not all men are like that. BUT, feel free to set up a club for women so you can avoid these "lazy beggars", that is unless Curves, or the Irish Countrywomens Assoication, or any of the other women only clubs don't accodomate for your needs!

Overheal

Aarav Nice Menswear wrote: »

You make this reply in soooo many posts... it's worn out. Really...

Be patient, Im going somewhere with this.

Manic Moran

I do feel that there was a little bit of fudge over the clubs "purpose" though. Surely if the club lets women play as a reduced status of member and actually is called a "golf club" then it is a "golf club" and not a "mens club"? When is a golf club not a golf club?

That's pretty much what the judges focused on. As one of the Justices points out, they're arguing that a gentleman's club which happens to have a squash court is legal, and a males-only squash club is not. The majority position is that it's a men's club, which happens to play golf and owns a publicly accessible golf course which is open to all people without discrimination. Note that actually playing golf is not a requirement for membership.

NTM

WindSock

Zulu wrote: »

Thats total horseshit, do you have any proof to back up that total bullshit of a lie?

Zulu wrote: »

Well, feel free to dress it up whatever way you prefer, I honestly don't mind.

Good for you. 'dressing up' would be what you did though. Calling something bull****, horseshit and a lie is an invitation now?

Well feel free to look to other sites, I wouldn't restrict your source - if you have one. But it appears you don't.
I'm guessing that's the real reason you won't previde proof - you have none. Ergo, you were talking rubbish.

Oh how nice of you not to restrict me bothering my arse to google a publication to back up my statement. Of course I just believed it was common knowledge that we live in a patriarchial society where the vast majority of those who hold the power economically, politically and socially are from the demographic previously mentioned. I guess I didn't believe anyone could deny that. But there you have it.

Well it's nice to know how you really feel, however, it is quite a biased opinion. You'll probably find that not all men are like that. BUT, feel free to set up a club for women so you can avoid these "lazy beggars", that is unless Curves, or the Irish Countrywomens Assoication, or any of the other women only clubs don't accodomate for your needs!

I guess my point seems to have missed your head. Again. Seems like I am pissing in the wind with this one.

Stercus Accidit

Obviously this isn't a step forward, but we are so far back already its not much of a step back.

In an ideal world, women would be allowed full membership, but also, I could be quoted on my car on a par with a similarly experienced woman, I could go to curves, get equal access to a child with a woman I may not be married to etc. etc.

Welcome to the imperfect world, don't hold your breath.

Zulu

WindSock wrote: »

Of course I just believed it was common knowledge

Ah well, it all depends on who you assoicate with really. At a KKK meeting you'll find plenty of things that are "common knowledge" amonst the crowd, that aren't true. "Common knowledge" isn't fact. Defining something as "common knowledge" doesn't make it true unfortunatly.

we live in a patriarchial society

It's "common knowledge" that ireland has a matriarcal society.

where the vast majority of those who hold the power economically, politically and socially are from the demographic previously mentioned.

The ecomonic wealth is split across the sexes, as is the poliitical power - what with it being an open democroacy.

...But that's an aside, distracting us from the basic fact: you've no proof to back up your previous assertions. This is because your assertions were false.

Coriolanus

shoegirl wrote: »

That said I've no issue with groups excluding or restricting membership as long as they get no tax exemptions or public funding for doing so.

I can't wait to see this expanded to include "public" schools.

Anyway, on topic. Looking at the legal wording of it all, to me it actually seems like it should be illegal. The primary purpose of a Golf Club seems to be golf. It's not actually a gentlemens club. (is it just me or does that term summon up poles and scanty ladies in the head? )

WindSock

Zulu wrote: »

Ah well, it all depends on who you assoicate with really. At a KKK meeting you'll find plenty of things that are "common knowledge" amonst the crowd, that aren't true. "Common knowledge" isn't fact. Defining something as "common knowledge" doesn't make it true unfortunatly.

You saying it isn't, doesn't make it false either

...But that's an aside, distracting us from the basic fact: you've no proof to back up your previous assertions. This is because your assertions were false.

Not because they are false. Because I can't be arsed. Oh oh here's one report then:

http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pr_womenandmen2008.htm

The employment rate for women in Ireland was 60.5% in the second quarter of 2008 compared with 48.1% in 1998. This rapid increase means that Ireland already exceeds the EU 2010 target of 60%. The employment rate in 2008 for men was 75.6%, which was well above the average 2007 EU rate of 72.5%.

Women’s income1 in 2006 was around two-thirds of men’s income. After adjusting for differences in hours worked, women’s hourly earnings were around 86% of men’s.

The report shows that women are under-represented in decision-making structures at both national and regional levels. In 2008 only 13% of TDs in Dáil Eireann were women, while they accounted for 34% of members of State Boards, 17% of members of local authorities and just 15% of members of regional authorities. The average representation in national
parliaments for EU27 countries was nearly 24% in 2008.

The education and health sectors employed the highest proportion of women, with an 80% share of the total at work in health, 85% in primary education and nearly two-thirds in second level education (62%). However, women were not well represented at senior level positions. In the health service, women represented only 32% of medical and dental
consultants. Similarly, women accounted for 51% of primary school managers, and in second level schools women accounted for only 38% of school managers.

The early school leavers rate among women aged 18-24 in 2007 was 8.7%, which was much lower than the male rate of 14.2%. There were higher proportions of girls taking English and European languages at Leaving Certificate higher level in 2008. However, boys had higher rates of participation in technical subjects. Over 90% of Leaving Certificate students taking higher level engineering, construction studies and technical drawing examinations were male. This pattern continued at third level with men accounting for around 86% of graduates in engineering, manufacturing and construction.

The proportion of men at risk of poverty in 2006, after pensions and social transfers, was 17% compared to 19% of women. At risk of poverty rates in 2007 were considerably lower for employed men and women at 6% for both.

Life expectancy for women at birth was 81.6 years in 2006, nearly 5 years more than the value for men of 76.8 years. Life expectancy for men at age less than 1 year in Ireland is over 2 years greater than the EU 27 average, while for women in Ireland life expectancy at age less than 1 year is just over half a year greater than the EU 27 average.

Men were generally more likely to die at a younger age than women, with the difference in risk particularly high in the 15-24 years age group. This reflects a greater tendency for young men to commit suicide and to be victims of motor vehicle accidents.

Ireland had the most gender balanced population in the EU in 2007, with 100 women per 100 men in the population. For older age groups the proportion of women in the population was higher with 80 men per 100 women in the 65 and over age group. At EU level there were 71 men per 100 women in the 65 and over age group.

Eoin

Hopefully this will balance out when men have the same opportunity to take 6 months paternity leave, plus 16 weeks unpaid leave following the birth of a child.

ScumLord

eoin wrote: »

Hopefully this will balance out when men have the same opportunity to take 6 months paternity leave, plus 16 weeks unpaid leave following the birth of a child.

In fairness men don't have to go through the physical ordeal of shitting out a child, so it's only fair women get a longer break.

Warfi

eoin wrote: »

Hopefully this will balance out when breast feeding men have the same opportunity to take 6 months paternity leave, plus 16 weeks unpaid leave following the birth of a child.

You left out a few words

NothingMan

ScumLord wrote: »

In fairness men don't have to go through the physical ordeal of shitting out a child, so it's only fair women get a longer break.

Man, just because she let you have anal doesn't mean that a baby is gonna come out of that hole.