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Killed a motorcyclist? That'll be €1000 please...

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    #122
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    OK, just read the whole thread. :eek:

    It was an accident, BUT -

    It was an avoidable accident.

    I personally think the punishment should have been more - this would send a clear and simple message:

    Look out for other road users!

    Why are so many posters here trying to stand up for this driver?


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    #123
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    galwaytt wrote: »
    I agree. All that's wrong here is: education, training. It's not malice.

    And, if you ever hated school, but love cars/bikes/etc, training is actually very enjoyable and sociable.


    I completely agree - It's too easy for any clown to get a driving licence.

    IMO it should be part of school. But of course, this will never happen.


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    #124
    BeardyGit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭BeardyGit


    It's sad to read this, but not in the least bit surprising really. Accidents will happen, sometimes caused by idiots and sometimes caused by a momentary lapse in concentration or better judgement etc.

    I live up in Roundwood, in Wicklow, on what's probably one of the most popular biker routes on the east coast. Winding and undulating roads make the route up the R751 and over the Wicklow gap very popular with bikers.

    Seeing the antics and carry-on of a large proportion of riders on this 'circuit', I'm surprised many more bikers aren't killed each year on these roads. Bikers are just as irresponsible and just as lacking in judgement as the solely car driving motoring public. I've seen more bikers make stupid and wreckless manouevres in one summer than I've seen in 15 years of driving cars all over this country....

    The man who caused the death of this biker made a mistake, and will pay a hefty price, no doubt about it. But something that strikes me about this is that I reckon more car drivers will learn from this than bikers will....

    I've not seen the CCTV footage, but as a biker myself, I can't believe for a minute that the risk of a car that's just pulled in to the hard shoulder might do a u-turn should have escaped the biker if he was alert and riding defensively.... In much the same way as the man in the jeep might have let his guard down, I can't but think the biker most likely did the same.....

    These court reports will rarely if ever comment on the lighting status of the bike, whether or not hi-viz was worn, and in general whether or not the biker had taken every resonable precaution to ensure his visibility. Sadly, once a biker take the fall and especially once fatal, the entire burden of responsibility is deposited squarely on the car/van/truck drivers shoulder.

    In this, as in many cases, one has become a victim, largely protected from criticism or scrutiny, and the other now bears the guilt and shame of causing anothers death...where both may have been greatly responsible for what happened....

    Biker beware and car driver take care....


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    #125
    cascade35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭cascade35


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    That's obvious. Why was the driver not made do some driver training or resit his driving test?

    Is there a driver training programme specifically for drivers involved in fatal crashs?


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    #126
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    they don't look i've been off fropm a car doing that exact thing and the woman driver's male friend stood over me and shouted that i should look where i was going then he told her to get in the passenger side and he drove off

    moral of the story is; baffels out of exhaust and beams on all day


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    #127
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    I've not seen the CCTV footage, but as a biker myself, I can't believe for a minute that the risk of a car that's just pulled in to the hard shoulder might do a u-turn should have escaped the biker if he was alert and riding defensively.... In much the same way as the man in the jeep might have let his guard down, I can't but think the biker most likely did the same.....
    ...but surely that's the point. We know the car driver was careless, it's what the court has adjudicated upon, and no-one in that sphere seems to be questioning it. But to extend some sort of 'guilt by assocation' to the biker is simply unjust. I think it's entirely fair to assume that he was defensive, that he was careful, and that even being so, a dithering moment for a car driver proved fatal. This can happen at 10mph.
    These court reports will rarely if ever comment on the lighting status of the bike, whether or not hi-viz was worn, and in general whether or not the biker had taken every resonable precaution to ensure his visibility.
    But if the absence of any of the above was a factor, it would surely have been mentioned. We must, for justice' sake, assume he was completely blameless.
    Sadly, once a biker take the fall and especially once fatal, the entire burden of responsibility is deposited squarely on the car/van/truck drivers shoulder. ..
    True, and, sometimes that's exactly the way it is, has to be, even.......sometimes there truly is, only 1 party to blame. Blame (even accidental), is not democratic.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #128
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    I completely agree - It's too easy for any clown to get a driving licence.

    IMO it should be part of school. But of course, this will never happen.

    ...sad, but hopefully not true. Rosemary Smith runs a teenager driving school, and my 2 small kids have met her and thought her terrific. They can't wait to get to go...........although they're only 9 & 6.......!

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #129
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    It's sad to read this, but not in the least bit surprising really. Accidents will happen, sometimes caused by idiots and sometimes caused by a momentary lapse in concentration or better judgement etc.

    I live up in Roundwood, in Wicklow, on what's probably one of the most popular biker routes on the east coast. Winding and undulating roads make the route up the R751 and over the Wicklow gap very popular with bikers.

    Seeing the antics and carry-on of a large proportion of riders on this 'circuit', I'm surprised many more bikers aren't killed each year on these roads. Bikers are just as irresponsible and just as lacking in judgement as the solely car driving motoring public. I've seen more bikers make stupid and wreckless manouevres in one summer than I've seen in 15 years of driving cars all over this country....

    The man who caused the death of this biker made a mistake, and will pay a hefty price, no doubt about it. But something that strikes me about this is that I reckon more car drivers will learn from this than bikers will....

    I've not seen the CCTV footage, but as a biker myself, I can't believe for a minute that the risk of a car that's just pulled in to the hard shoulder might do a u-turn should have escaped the biker if he was alert and riding defensively.... In much the same way as the man in the jeep might have let his guard down, I can't but think the biker most likely did the same.....

    These court reports will rarely if ever comment on the lighting status of the bike, whether or not hi-viz was worn, and in general whether or not the biker had taken every resonable precaution to ensure his visibility. Sadly, once a biker take the fall and especially once fatal, the entire burden of responsibility is deposited squarely on the car/van/truck drivers shoulder.

    In this, as in many cases, one has become a victim, largely protected from criticism or scrutiny, and the other now bears the guilt and shame of causing anothers death...where both may have been greatly responsible for what happened....

    Biker beware and car driver take care....

    Why are you standing up for the driver?

    and...

    Why are you trying to blame the biker?


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    #130
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    P.C. wrote: »
    Why are you standing up for the driver?

    and...

    Why are you trying to blame the biker?

    From the summary of this thread, I can assume it's because:

    Bikers are the spawn of satan, and they drive at the speed of light.


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    #131
    BeardyGit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭BeardyGit


    P.C. wrote: »
    Why are you standing up for the driver?

    and...

    Why are you trying to blame the biker?

    I'm not trying to blame the biker. I'm simply saying it's entirely possible that the biker wasn't doing all he should to ride and stay safe. Don't try to crucify me for that - It's absolutely a possibility and I don't think it's right to just give the benefit of the doubt....

    Many people are making a lot of assumptions here - I'm merely acknowledging that there are possibilities that some of you want to ignore in support of your witch-hunt for car drivers.....


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    #132
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,981 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    I'm not trying to blame the biker. I'm simply saying it's entirely possible that the biker wasn't doing all he should to ride and stay safe. Don't try to crucify me for that - It's absolutely a possibility and I don't think it's right to just give the benefit of the doubt....

    Many people are making a lot of assumptions here - I'm merely acknowledging that there are possibilities that some of you want to ignore in support of your witch-hunt for car drivers.....

    Sometimes you have to assume that the other person isn't a complete idiot. Even if he was driving defensively it could have boiled down to a level of basic trust in other drivers.

    But yes, I think the issue here is really that fact that he gets fined and walks away. I don't want to Vindicate the guy, but I would prefer the knowledge that if somebody creams me in either a car or bike I would like them to be stripped of their license and have to start all over again with a permit and a driving test.

    This is nearly as bad as drunk drivers just re-applying and getting handed back their license.


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    #133
    r3nu4l
    Registered Users Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    He said he did, CCTV proved he didn't.
    The CCTV did NOT prove that he didn't look in his mirrors, all it 'proved' was that he hit the bike. He's another example of a man who LBDNS (looked but did not see) and I blame that on the driver AND the car manufacturers who make thick A-pillars in cars and poorly designed mirrors that allow blind spots to exist. This is why looking over your shoulder is so important even when changing lanes on a dual carriageway. I've seen such poor motorcycle driving that I'm paranoid about it now.
    hobochris wrote: »
    If I'm in a car I get let out at junction, If I'm on the bike I'm ignored.

    When I'm on the bike people have this mentality that they must speed up, overtake(dangerously most of the time) and when in front of me will slow down bellow the speed I've been consistently doing.Whats the point in overtaking me if your going to slow down to a speed lower than the one I'm traveling at? "There seems to be a look at me I overtook a bike mentality".
    Well I know a few bikers well so I'm always hyper-aware of bikers on the road and allow them the room they need to move past.

    However, it's funny but I'd rather see the bike way ahead of me than behind me simply because in my experience too many bikers think that 'filtering' means 'riding the other guys bumper until you see the barest of gaps, then pulling out (left or right) and ripping past before squeezing in front again and forcing the guy I just overtook to slam on his brakes'. :rolleyes:
    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Doing it in a dangerous manner i.e. leaving very little room for error, isnt the way of doing it unfortunately.
    That's the problem I have with the way a lot (not all) of bikers choose to filter.
    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Well in my experience bikers are 90% good, 10% bad. I wish I could say the same (or even anything remotely close to that) about car drivers.
    KamiKazi wrote: »
    From the summary of this thread, I can assume it's because:

    Bikers are the spawn of satan, and they drive at the speed of light.

    And a summary of your posts seems to say only 10% of bikers are death-wish merchants, the other 90% are all-seeing, infallible road-users and saintly... :pac:


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    #134
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,981 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    r3nu4l wrote: »
    And a summary of your posts seems to say only 10% of bikers are death-wish merchants, the other 90% are all-seeing, infallible road-users and saintly... :pac:

    Think of a riding a motorbike like removing the safety labels off of everything. Most normal people with common sense will get along grand. And the idiots, well, they end up dead, maimed or crippled. And they rarely take anybody else out with them. It all balances out.


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    #135
    rgunning
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭rgunning


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    From the summary of this thread, I can assume it's because:

    Bikers are the spawn of satan, and they drive at the speed of light.

    I think a more accurate summary is:

    No one here was on the jury, but bizzarely many comment as if they know the case intimately. I think people are commenting on things that happened to them at some stage and are extrapolating on to this case. As a result, no one who has commented with strong opinions here would have been allowed on the jury because they would have tried the case without hearing evidence, owning to their existing prejudices.

    As regards the judgment, I look at it like this: he was done for careless driving and fined the approriate legal amount for that. He was not found to be guilty of anything else. So look at it this way: let's say a garda was watching him perform the u-turn carelessly, but no motorbike was involved. The garda brings him to court over it. Would he be charged with a possible manslaughter because of what could have happened if a motorbike/car/child was hit? No, because the only thing he was guilty of was careless driving.

    Very few of us have never driven carelessly (be it just for a few seconds), but a few have had the misfortune to do it and cause a road death at the same time. If you are someone who feels that this guy should never be on the roads again, the next time you do something careless in a car/motobike/hovercraft/whatever, turn your licence in.


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    #136
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    all bikers shouldn't be loaded together

    if i'm over taken by a car an its being a bit mad i don't think that all car drivers are driving around like that so if someone sees a bike doing the same wy do they lump all bikers together
    ?


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    #137
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Since when has ignorance ever been a valid excuse? If I have a pint after work before driving home, get stopped, breathalyzed and found to be over the limit will the Garda excuse because I didn't know I was over the limit?

    To be fair, if you were breathalysed after just a pint under today's limits you would probably pass. Unless you'd skulled it in less than a minute and got straight into your car.

    under the new proposed limits you could well be over after a single leisurely consumed pint but then the suggestion is that the authorities will indeed take a more lenient view of drivers marginally over the new limits.


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    #138
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    An interesting case from Scotland: link

    A scottish guy got nine months in prison and a five year driving ban for hitting 166mph on public roads. It's pretty obvious that's he's being made a scapegoat of, but even so it's a pretty steep sentence for speeding (albeit it at a crazy speed).

    A vast contrast to getting a €1000 fine for causing the death of somebody else.


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    #139
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    An interesting case from Scotland: link

    A scottish guy got nine months in prison and a five year driving ban for hitting 166mph on public roads. It's pretty obvious that's he's being made a scapegoat of, but even so it's a pretty steep sentence for speeding (albeit it at a crazy speed).

    A vast contrast to getting a €1000 fine for causing the death of somebody else.

    With all due respect, there is a world of difference between an accident and willfully breaking the law....


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    #140
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    robtri wrote: »
    With all due respect, there is a world of difference between an accident and willfully breaking the law....

    With all due respect? :eek::confused::(

    I know that they happened in different countries, and I know that the death was an accident but...

    one guy admittied that he had broken the law (no one got hurt), and got a very harsh sentence;

    the other guy pleaded not guilty and got a €1000 fine.

    And before you say - 'Oh, but he will have to live with the fact that he killed somone.' - answer me this - have you ever been responsible for the death of somone?
    if not, don't say it.


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    #141
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    P.C. wrote: »
    the other guy pleaded not guilty and got a €1000 fine.
    He pleaded not guilty to dangerous driving.
    P.C. wrote: »
    And before you say - 'Oh, but he will have to live with the fact that he killed somone.' - answer me this - have you ever been responsible for the death of somone?
    if not, don't say it.
    You may not be, but others among us are quite capable of imagining the effect on someone of having been responsible for a death.


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    #142
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    Anan1 wrote: »
    You may not be, but others among us are quite capable of imagining the effect on someone of having been responsible for a death.

    Just to make it a bit more clear.

    You are only 'capable of imagining', but you have no idea what it is actually like to be responsible for the death of another human being.
    And it has a very different effect on different people. For some, life is cheap, others will never be able to deal with it.
    Do you know anyone who is responsible for the death of somone else?
    Have you ever lost somone close to you to something like murder or an avoidable motor vehicle accident?


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    #143
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    P.C. wrote: »
    Just to make it a bit more clear.

    You are only 'capable of imagining', but you have no idea what it is actually like to be responsible for the death of another human being.
    And it has a very different effect on different people. For some, life is cheap, others will never be able to deal with it.
    Do you know anyone who is responsible for the death of somone else?
    Have you ever lost somone close to you to something like murder or an avoidable motor vehicle accident?
    Just so we're completely clear, the answers to the above questions are none of your business. Furthermore, you have no right to tell others what they can and cannot say on the subject simply because it does not conform to your idea of what is right.


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    #144
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    P.C. wrote: »
    And before you say - 'Oh, but he will have to live with the fact that he killed somone.' - answer me this - have you ever been responsible for the death of somone?
    if not, don't say it.
    Anan1 wrote: »
    Just so we're completely clear, the answers to the above questions are none of your business. Furthermore, you have no right to tell others what they can and cannot say on the subject simply because it does not conform to your idea of what is right.

    What I am saying is: Don't assume what effect it will have on a person, as you do not know.

    I am saying do NOT say how somone feels about somthing if you do not know how they feel. It is not correct to transfer feelings onto somone else.
    The way somone feels about an event is not right or wrong - it is just the way they feel. But that does not give anyone the right to transfer their feelings onto that person.
    You can not force somone to feel the way society beleives they should feel, and you have no right to assume that a person will feel a particular way about something, so don't.

    So, yes, I am saying 'Do not transfer your feelings onto somone else.'

    If that means that I am telling people what they can and cannot say on a subject, so be it - stick to the facts, not the feelings behind them.


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