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Killed a motorcyclist? That'll be €1000 please...

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245

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    #32
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Well that may be the case, but a year and a half in prison is as unfitting a punishment as a €1000 fine is for causing the death of another motorist is.
    It really depends on the exact circumstances of the accident. I always check my mirrors and i'm sure you do too, but that doesn't change the fact that this could have happened to either of us too. And if I killed someone like that the fine would be - to use your term - the least of my worries.


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    #33
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    There's a big difference there. He either didnt check them at all, or didnt check them properly. Which is it? Did he check them? Didn't he?

    Does it really make a difference when the end result is the same? What if the mirrors weren't adjusted properly? It really doesn't matter because the end result was he didn't pay attention and as a result another road user died.
    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Why couldnt the motorbike stop in time? Was he not prepared for the unexpected? What speed was the bike doing? What was the speed limit on the road where this incident happened? How heavy was the traffic? What was the weather and visibility like?

    See galwaytt's post^
    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Stop jumping to stupid, unfounded conclusions. The driver of the car made a mistake. It happens, and unfortunately it cost a man his life. It happens every week on Irish roads.

    The driver of the car will feel guilty for the rest of his life, and I'd imagine his son doesnt feel to great about himself either. What more do you want to happen to them?

    I think anyone in this thread believes that the car driver pulled out on purpose. If intent, or lack thereof, was a valid excuse then why isn't it used more? "Ah well I didn't intend on breaking the speed limit" "I didn't intend on staying in the pub for eight pints, I intended to leave after one".


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    #34
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    cleveroli wrote: »
    And how'd she'd feel seeing your comment on what you'd like to do to him

    In case anyone misinterpreted my comment earlier, the "what I'd do to him" comment was meant at the case of the abusive father someone mentioned, not the guy driving the jeep.


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    #35
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    [quote=galwaytt;62732741
    I'm sick to the teeth of 'motorbike, ergo, speed' horse**** that gets spouted. :mad: It is a fact, and as stated in the current campaign run by the the RSA, that 50% (or thereabouts) of all 'bike accidents are caused by cars. That means that car drivers are NOT paying attention. This case is what happens in when that inattention comes to pass. Although a car person generally, my transport of choice is a motorbike, and I can see both sides of this - it's not as if I've never got a fright in the car myself.

    [/quote]


    I dont know about anyone else, but in my experience, bikers like to hug the rear drivers side wing of my car. This makes it -

    - Very hard for any other motorist to spot the bike,
    - Very hard for me to concentrate on whats ahead of me, particularly at night when its headlight is shining directly into my wing mirror


    On top of this, bikers like to weave in and out of heavy traffic, with a tendency to appear out of nowhere from behind an artic. Very hard for a driver to prepare and allow for this.

    If motorcyclists spent as much time thinking about whats up ahead, as opposed to how to get by it, they'd be a bit safer. I honestly think that alot of motorcyclists put themselves into silly positions.

    Anyhow, another argument for another day.


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    #36
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    I think anyone in this thread believes that the car driver pulled out on purpose. If intent, or lack thereof, was a valid excuse then why isn't it used more? "Ah well I didn't intend on breaking the speed limit" "I didn't intend on staying in the pub for eight pints, I intended to leave after one".
    It is. This is why attempted murder is punished more severely than involuntary manslaughter.


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    #37
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,062 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Another case of "I checked my mirrors properly and there was no motorcyclist. He must have come out of nowhere". And this time this ignorance / incompetence killed a person.


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    #38
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Does it really make a difference when the end result is the same? What if the mirrors weren't adjusted properly? It really doesn't matter because the end result was he didn't pay attention and as a result another road user died.

    Yes, it does. It shows he checked his mirrors. Big difference as oppsed to not checking his mirrors at all. It shows the intent to drive safely.

    See galwaytt's post^
    I think anyone in this thread believes that the car driver pulled out on purpose. If intent, or lack thereof, was a valid excuse then why isn't it used more? "Ah well I didn't intend on breaking the speed limit" "I didn't intend on staying in the pub for eight pints, I intended to leave after one".

    We know he didnt pull out with the intention of killing someone. That's all that matters.

    You obviously have never been involved in a serious RTA, or had someone in your family involved. If you did, you wouldnt be speaking like this.


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    #39
    cleveroli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭cleveroli


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    In case anyone misinterpreted my comment earlier, the "what I'd do to him" comment was meant at the case of the abusive father someone mentioned, not the guy driving the jeep.


    Glad you cleared that up
    and on that point I'd be right beside you 100% !He gave that child a cauliflower ear he hit him so hard - Id like to introduce him to the vegetable world:mad::mad:


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    #40
    BigEejit
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭BigEejit


    galwaytt wrote: »
    ...actually you do know. The record of the court, and as reported in the paper, clearly states: "Imposing sentence, Judge Ó Donnabháin said that it was notable that there were no aggravating factors such as drink, speed or a defective vehicle involved".
    Good point, but there are no mentions of road conditions or bends in the road etc. Anyone know where this happened? are there bends that would have obscured the motorbike? Was it raining or recently finished raining?
    galwaytt wrote: »
    I'm sick to the teeth of 'motorbike, ergo, speed' horse**** that gets spouted.
    So you are honestly saying that motorbike drivers are less likely to speed than car drivers? (disregarding the infamous 18 year old skangermobile merchants)
    It is a fact, and as stated in the current campaign run by the the RSA, that 50% (or thereabouts) of all 'bike accidents are caused by cars. That means that car drivers are NOT paying attention.
    ah, the glass half full argument, how about 50% of motorbike accidents are caused by motorbikes.
    This case is what happens in when that inattention comes to pass.
    This is all it is
    As for the sound/noise, someone commented on ? Well, fwiw, you can take that up with the EU/your local MEP. If they didn't make such a friggin' nonsense of noise laws, you would hear them coming.........the Doppler effect notwithstanding, that is...........
    Yeah, we would all _love_ to hear motorbikes for 30 seconds before we even see them. Purely from a safety point of view of course.
    /sorry for offtopicness...
    This was an accident, the guy could just as easily have pulled out in front of a car with no lights on in the rain or something.


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    #41
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,983 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    BigEejit wrote: »
    ah, the glass half full argument, how about 50% of motorbike accidents are caused by motorbikes.

    I don't have the figures but I'm positive that a huge part of that 50% is single vehicle accidents. If you have ever driven a motorbike on a Irish road you would understand. Simple things like farmers gates, road markings, manholes, the tar that they use to seal joints and cats eyes can be lethal without the interference of a car.
    unkel wrote: »
    Another case of "I checked my mirrors properly and there was no motorcyclist. He must have come out of nowhere". And this time this ignorance / incompetence killed a person.

    Pretty much. If he was a HGV driver and killed somebody in a car would the verdict be the same?
    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    I dont know about anyone else, but in my experience, bikers like to hug the rear drivers side wing of my car. This makes it -

    - Very hard for any other motorist to spot the bike,
    - Very hard for me to concentrate on whats ahead of me, particularly at night when its headlight is shining directly into my wing mirror

    Believe it or not, driving close to the white line is the safest place to be on a straight.


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    #42
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    In case anyone misinterpreted my comment earlier, the "what I'd do to him" comment was meant at the case of the abusive father someone mentioned, not the guy driving the jeep.
    Sorry, I got that one wrong!:)


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    #43
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    BigEejit wrote: »
    Good point, but there are no mentions of road conditions or bends in the road etc. Anyone know where this happened? are there bends that would have obscured the motorbike? Was it raining or recently finished raining?

    No aggregrating factors would include weather I'd imagine. And parking too close to a bend to be able to rejoin traffic would be the car drivers fault.
    BigEejit wrote: »
    So you are honestly saying that motorbike drivers are less likely to speed than car drivers? (disregarding the infamous 18 year old skangermobile merchants)
    ah, the glass half full argument, how about 50% of motorbike accidents are caused by motorbikes.This is all it is

    Honestly, bikes don't speed that much - I think most car drivers have that impression because bikes can accelerate away from lights etc. so much faster. And on the flip side of that the brakes on bikes usually mean they'll outbrake cars too. If you see someone one a big sports bike or whatever they've more than likely done advanced training courses, insurance assesments and maybe even track days / racing. How many yuppies in BMW's and Audi's have done anything more than the legal requirement? They are much more dangerous than bikes IMHO.
    BigEejit wrote: »
    Yeah, we would all _love_ to hear motorbikes for 30 seconds before we even see them. Purely from a safety point of view of course.

    Well apparently bikes are invisible so a loud exhaust may well save lives.


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    #44
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Believe it or not, driving close to the white line is the safest place to be on a straight.


    Not when your several inches away from my back bumper.


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    #45
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    I don't have the figures but I'm positive that a huge part of that 50% is single vehicle accidents. If you have ever driven a motorbike on a Irish road you would understand. Simple things like farmers gates, road markings, manholes, the tar that they use to seal joints and cats eyes can be lethal without the interference of a car.

    No you're right. I haven't got a link as it's been ages since I saw it, but a report on motorcycle accidents concluded that if you ignore single vehicle accidents, 75-80% are caused by the other vehicle. Biker's don't have a bubble around them like car drivers, hitting another vehicle hurts.


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    #46
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Not when your several inches away from my back bumper.

    Well if there is a bike several inches from your back bumper in the middle of the lane where is he going to go if you brake? Sitting on the white line usually shows the bikes intent of filtering anyway.


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    #47
    JD1763
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭JD1763


    Generalise much?? - how about the motor cyclist who saw fit to weave from side to side on my rear at a distance of about 3 feet on a single lane slip road that switchbacked left to right trying to pass me when there was no where near enough clearance to safely to do so. And then forced his way past between me and the car in front of me and a concrete seperator with no room to spare instead of waiting till the road split into a two laner and he could safely pass about 100 metres further down.

    Yeah all motorcyclists are responsible road users with a million courses under their belt and all accidents are the fault of those audi and bmw drivers :rolleyes:.


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    #48
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    JD1763 wrote: »
    Generalise much?? - how about the motor cyclist who saw fit to weave from side to side on my rear at a distance of about 3 feet on a single lane slip road that switchbacked left to right trying to pass me when there was no where near enough clearance to safely to do so. And then forced his way past between me and the car in front of me and a concrete seperator with no room to spare instead of waiting till the road split into a two laner and he could safely pass about 100 metres further down.

    Yeah all motorcyclists are responsible road users with a million courses under their belt and all accidents are the fault of those audi and bmw drivers :rolleyes:.

    Well I would say that guy had a death wish.


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    #49
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    galwaytt wrote: »
    ...actually you do know. The record of the court, and as reported in the paper, clearly states: "Imposing sentence, Judge Ó Donnabháin said that it was notable that there were no aggravating factors such as drink, speed or a defective vehicle involved".

    Which part of the plain English of the original post do you not understand ?

    He was referring to the car and not the speed of the bike...
    what part of plain english don't you understand


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    #50
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    robtri wrote: »
    He was referring to the car and not the speed of the bike...
    what part of plain english don't you understand

    Where does it say he was referring to just the car?


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    #51
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    I think while in this case it was a genuine accident(that still could have been avoided), the anger from the bikers here comes from the daily assignation attempts we all are on the receiving end of, which has spearheaded in this case.

    Today(so far) I had two assassination attempts for example.. both attempted side swipes. There is defiantly an attitude amongst car drivers about bikes, I see it every day.

    If I'm in a car I get let out at junction, If I'm on the bike I'm ignored.

    When I'm on the bike people have this mentality that they must speed up, overtake(dangerously most of the time) and when in front of me will slow down bellow the speed I've been consistently doing.Whats the point in overtaking me if your going to slow down to a speed lower than the one I'm traveling at? "There seems to be a look at me I overtook a bike mentality".

    Also we are not all speed junkies, There is a time and place for speed, its called a track day.

    On average, a motorcyclist receives more training then a car driver, a majority are advanced(grade 2) riders. Given the quality of road conditions and quality of driving of other road users this is more of a necessity then an option.

    Many car drivers also deliberately block space and fail to realize that filtering is a legal maneuver, if you want we can occupy a car space and traffic jams would become far worse.Instead, We can filter through the traffic at a safe pace, avoiding causing further congestion.


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    #52
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    galwaytt wrote: »
    .

    I'm sick to the teeth of 'motorbike, ergo, speed' horse**** that gets spouted. :mad: It is a fact, and as stated in the current campaign run by the the RSA, that 50% (or thereabouts) of all 'bike accidents are caused by cars. That means that car drivers are NOT paying attention. This case is what happens in when that inattention comes to pass. Although a car person generally, my transport of choice is a motorbike, and I can see both sides of this - it's not as if I've never got a fright in the car myself.

    i do like the its a fact that 50% or thereabouts ... so funny

    Actually according to the RSA.... in there publications of investigations of accidents on bikes over a ten year period.

    "Forty per cent of motorcycle fatalities were single vehicle collisions with bollard/island, parked car,parked truck, pole, tree, tall/gate, ditch and other objects. Head on collision with other vehicles accounted for 29 percent of fatalities."

    doesn't really support your FACTs


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    #53
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Well if there is a bike several inches from your back bumper in the middle of the lane where is he going to go if you brake? Sitting on the white line usually shows the bikes intent of filtering anyway.


    Erm.............straight into the back of me??


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    #54
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Where does it say he was referring to just the car?

    cause he was imposing sentance on the driver and his vehicle...


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    #55
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    robtri wrote: »
    cause he was imposing sentance on the driver and his vehicle...

    Yes but it was a multiple vehicle accident, he would have to consider aggrevating factors for both vehicles.


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    #56
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Erm.............straight into the back of me??

    Exactly, which is why he's sitting on the white line ready to overtake :rolleyes:


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    #57
    Dartz
    Registered Users Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭Dartz


    It is actually very difficult to see a motorcycle. Comapared to the mirror area occupied by a car, it's a much smaller frontal area, in a noisy visual environment, on the already small mirror. Motorcyclists are hard to spot.

    This really was just a tragic accident. Neither the driver, nor the biker were in the wrong. The driver did everything in his power save craning his head around out the window, the motorcyclist was riding safely.

    The driver didn't do anything wrong, he just got caught out by circumstance. On any other day the result would've been a locked brake and a brown trouser moment for both involved, but it didn't.

    I don't think the driver's life should be ruined over this. He did nothing wrong, he shouldn't be punished. It's something that's happened to all of us at some stage, we just got away with it and forget about it ten minutes later.


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    #58
    Drummerboy08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    Exactly, which is why he's sitting on the white line ready to overtake :rolleyes:


    Doing it in a dangerous manner i.e. leaving very little room for error, isnt the way of doing it unfortunately.


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    #59
    KamiKazi
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Drummerboy08 wrote: »
    Doing it in a dangerous manner i.e. leaving very little room for error, isnt the way of doing it unfortunately.

    Well the safest place for bikes is away from cars, which is why they are eager to get by you.


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    #60
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    Dartz wrote: »
    The driver didn't do anything wrong, he just got caught out by circumstance. On any other day the result would've been a locked brake and a brown trouser moment for both involved, but it didn't.

    So the judge fined him for careless driving for the craíc then? :rolleyes:


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    #61
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Dartz wrote: »
    It is actually very difficult to see a motorcycle. Comapared to the mirror area occupied by a car, it's a much smaller frontal area, in a noisy visual environment, on the already small mirror. Motorcyclists are hard to spot.

    This really was just a tragic accident. Neither the driver, nor the biker were in the wrong. The driver did everything in his power save craning his head around out the window, the motorcyclist was riding safely.

    The driver didn't do anything wrong, he just got caught out by circumstance. On any other day the result would've been a locked brake and a brown trouser moment for both involved, but it didn't.

    I don't think the driver's life should be ruined over this. He did nothing wrong, he shouldn't be punished. It's something that's happened to all of us at some stage, we just got away with it and forget about it ten minutes later.
    I don't think i'd go this far. The driver was wrong to pull out without ensuring that his path was clear. I can understand how it can happen, but it doesn't change the fact that the motorcyclist is dead because the driver pulled out without properly checking his mirrors. The above is based on the assumption that the motorcyclist wasn't doing a ridiculous speed.


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