Killed a motorcyclist? That'll be €1000 please...

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 11:18am #1

A CORK man has been acquitted of dangerous driving causing the death of a motorcyclist in an incident which occurred as he was dropping off his son to catch a school bus.

Gerard Noonan (42), a father of two and plumber, Castlecor, Mallow, had denied a charge of dangerous driving causing the death of Cornelius Jones from Milford, Co Cork, at Kilbarry, Castlecor, on October 16th, 2008.

He had pleaded guilty to careless driving.

Following his acquittal on the dangerous driving causing death charge by a jury at Cork Circuit Criminal Court, he was fined €1,000 for careless driving by Judge Seán Ó Donnabháin.

During the trial, the jury heard evidence that Mr Noonan had pulled off the road on the left side to allow two cars that were behind him to pass before he pulled out to cross over to the right side to drop his 13-year-old son off to catch a school bus.

Mr Noonan told the court that he checked in the wing mirrors of his vehicle three times and had a good line of sight behind him and saw both cars coming from behind, but he could not explain how he failed to see Mr Jones’s motorbike coming up behind him.

The jury was shown CCTV footage of the incident taken at a nearby garage which showed Mr Noonan pulling out across the road before being hit by the motorbike on the driver’s door.

Don McCarthy, prosecuting, said it was the State’s case that the manner in which Mr Noonan opted to cross the road without either checking his mirror or without checking his mirror properly constituted driving that was dangerous. Tom Creed SC, defending, argued that the error made by Mr Noonan in crossing the road amounted to a momentary inadvertence which more properly fell into the category of careless driving.

The jury took just over half an hour to acquit Mr Noonan of the dangerous driving causing death charge.

Imposing sentence, Judge Ó Donnabháin said that it was notable that there were no aggravating factors such as drink, speed or a defective vehicle involved.

So the going rate for a dead motorcyclist is €1000, I wonder how much I would have to pay for killing a dangerous 4x4 driver? Maybe not, I mean motorcyclists are criminal hooligans right? That man had to drop his kid off to school, he had no time to be checking his mirrors for crazed bikers.... :mad:

28-10-2009 11:21am

KamiKazi wrote: »

So the going rate for a dead motorcyclist is €1000, I wonder how much I would have to pay for killing a dangerous 4x4 driver? Maybe not, I mean motorcyclists are criminal hooligans right? That man had to drop his kid off to school, he had no time to be checking his mirrors for crazed bikers.... :mad:

You are totally missing the point. The legal system doesn't work that way.

It's a fine not some sort of restitution.

brandon_flowers · 28-10-2009 11:24am

KamiKazi wrote: »

So the going rate for a dead motorcyclist is €1000, I wonder how much I would have to pay for killing a dangerous 4x4 driver? Maybe not, I mean motorcyclists are criminal hooligans right? That man had to drop his kid off to school, he had no time to be checking his mirrors for crazed bikers.... :mad:

To be fair I've seen a lot worse cases than that involving dangerous driving causing death charges not been carried through into prosecutions. Unfortunate that the motorcyclists was killed and the sentence was so lenient but its like all our legislation, it protects the defence as much as possible.

stevenmu · 28-10-2009 11:26am

You're ignoring the fact that he was acquitted of causing the death and only convicted of dangerous driving.

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 11:28am

stevenmu wrote: »

You're ignoring the fact that he was acquitted of causing the death and only convicted of dangerous driving.

Following his acquittal on the dangerous driving causing death charge by a jury at Cork Circuit Criminal Court, he was fined €1,000 for careless driving by Judge Seán Ó Donnabháin.

He was acquitted of dangerous driving and only charged with careless driving. Makes me wonder what one would have to do to be charged with dangerous driving.

Owen · 28-10-2009 11:30am

Speaking as a motorcyclist, who's had a friend killed off a bike, the 1000 Euro is immateriaal. The guy who caused the accident didn't set out to kill anyone, and you can be sure that both him, and his son will have that horrible memory and guilt with them for the rest of their lives, whether it was 1000 Euro, 10 Euro, or 1000000 Euro.

KamiKazi wrote: »

He was acquitted of dangerous driving and only charged with careless driving. Makes me wonder what one would have to do to be charged with dangerous driving.

Performing a U turn when you think the road is clear although it isn't *is* careless driving. Overtaking 7 cars in a row is dangerous. There's a world of difference.

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 11:34am

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Speaking as a motorcyclist, who's had a friend killed off a bike, the 1000 Euro is immateriaal. The guy who caused the accident didn't set out to kill anyone, and you can be sure that both him, and his son will have that horrible memory and guilt with them for the rest of their lives, whether it was 1000 Euro, 10 Euro, or 1000000 Euro.

Performing a U turn when you think the road is clear although it isn't *is* careless driving. Overtaking 7 cars in a row is dangerous. There's a world of difference.

Where do you cross the line then between careless and dangerous? When you put the life of someone else at risk it isn't careless it's downright dangerous.

kermitpwee · 28-10-2009 11:35am

KamiKazi wrote: »

He was acquitted of dangerous driving and only charged with careless driving. Makes me wonder what one would have to do to be charged with dangerous driving.

I am just guessing here. Imo dangerous driving would be driving in a manner that is excessive or dangerous for the conditions. Driving carelessly would be making a mistake or not carrying out maneourves in a correct manner.

Owen · 28-10-2009 11:37am

KamiKazi wrote: »

Where do you cross the line then between careless and dangerous? When you put the life of someone else at risk it isn't careless it's downright dangerous.

Intent. If you intend to overtake 7 cars, or overtake on the wrong side of the road coming into a corner to be a hard man behind the wheel, that's dangerous. The guy pulled into the left, checked to see if the way was clear, missed the oncoming bike in his mirror (It does happen - there are ads on UK TV telling people to be wary of bikes exactly because of this), and only when he thought the way was clear did he commit to the U-Turn. He was careless. Not actually out to act the maggot in the car and drive dangerously. I feel sorry for the guy.

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 11:42am

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Intent. If you intend to overtake 7 cars, or overtake on the wrong side of the road coming into a corner to be a hard man behind the wheel, that's dangerous. The guy pulled into the left, checked to see if the way was clear, missed the oncoming bike in his mirror (It does happen - there are ads on UK TV telling people to be wary of bikes exactly because of this), and only when he thought the way was clear did he commit to the U-Turn. He was careless. Not actually out to act the maggot in the car and drive dangerously. I feel sorry for the guy.

Since when has ignorance ever been a valid excuse? If I have a pint after work before driving home, get stopped, breathalyzed and found to be over the limit will the Garda excuse because I didn't know I was over the limit?

Drummerboy08 · 28-10-2009 11:43am

KamiKazi wrote: »

So the going rate for a dead motorcyclist is €1000, I wonder how much I would have to pay for killing a dangerous 4x4 driver? Maybe not, I mean motorcyclists are criminal hooligans right? That man had to drop his kid off to school, he had no time to be checking his mirrors for crazed bikers.... :mad:

Where does it say that? The driver himself says he checked his mirrors three times, and the prosecution couldn't prove otherwise. Could you edit that out of your original post?

Also, I feel sorry for him, as well as the biker's family.

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 11:46am

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Where does it say that? The driver himself says he checked his mirrors three times, and the prosecution couldn't prove otherwise. Could you edit that out of your original post?

Also, I feel sorry for him, as well as the biker's family.

The jury was shown CCTV footage of the incident taken at a nearby garage which showed Mr Noonan pulling out across the road before being hit by the motorbike on the driver’s door.

He said he did, CCTV proved he didn't.

Soon as the jury walked into that courtroom they saw themselves driving that jeep being hit by a bike, not driving a bike being hit by a jeep.

Owen · 28-10-2009 11:46am

KamiKazi wrote: »

Since when has ignorance ever been a valid excuse? If I have a pint after work before driving home, get stopped, breathalyzed and found to be over the limit will the Garda excuse because I didn't know I was over the limit?

That's a ridiculous, and unrelated argument. The guy didn't set out to kill anyone, did his best to make sure the way was safe, and got caught out. He has to live with his mistake for the rest of his life.

But if the fine was more than 1000 Euro, what do you think it would achieve, would it bring the dead man back? Would it make other drivers aware of motorcyclists? Probably not to both counts.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue in favour of, it's very very clear in the article that this was a genuine mistake and careless, not dangerous driving. It's very misfortunate that one family lost a member, and the other will be scarred for life. I'm not really sure how much you can achieve by trying to punish the driver further. You can bet that most nights when he's lying in bed, he's probably replaying it again and again in his head.

BigEejit · 28-10-2009 11:49am

Was anyone here at the court and heard all the evidence? Until such time that all the facts are known no-one here can say whether it was careless or anything else. For all we know it could have been a 40km/h zone and the motorbike was doing 150.

Was €1000 the maximum fine that the judge could levy for careless driving?

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 11:53am

PaintDoctor wrote: »

That's a ridiculous, and unrelated argument. The guy didn't set out to kill anyone, did his best to make sure the way was safe, and got caught out. He has to live with his mistake for the rest of his life.

What?? Was the biker travelling at the speed of light? Bikes are harder to spot at a glance, I'll admit that, they are not invisible and they are usually quite loud compared to cars. He did not do his best to make sure the way was safe.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

But if the fine was more than 1000 Euro, what do you think it would achieve, would it bring the dead man back? Would it make other drivers aware of motorcyclists? Probably not to both counts.

You're right, they amount of money is irrelevant, my point was more about how the guy is still allowed drive on public roads without so much as a refresher course on safe driving. Hell, he probably drove home from the courtroom.

robtri · 28-10-2009 11:57am

Firstly soory to hear of the death of anyone on the road...

Secondly, stop jumping to conclusions, the courts decided he was done only for careless driving.....
Much as I am sorry for the biker, but ACCIDENTS do happen, it was not intentional or malicious, it was an accident...

even if the court fined him 10million.. what good would it do anyone????

Drummerboy08 · 28-10-2009 11:58am

KamiKazi wrote: »

He said he did, CCTV proved he didn't.

Soon as the jury walked into that courtroom they saw themselves driving that jeep being hit by a bike, not driving a bike being hit by a jeep.

No, CCTV Showed him pulling out. It didnt show him checking/not checking his mirrors. BIG difference.

Owen · 28-10-2009 11:59am

KamiKazi wrote: »

What?? Was the biker travelling at the speed of light? Bikes are harder to spot at a glance, I'll admit that, they are not invisible and they are usually quite loud compared to cars.

Bikes are only loud within a certain distance, and if they have a race can fitted. Bikes certainly hard to spot - there's an advertising campaign in the UK specifically trying to get that point across. Even if a bike is doing a low speed, their very small front cross section means that unless that have a bright headlight on, high vis jacket and light coloured helmet on that they might not be seen. Hell, I've worn that stuff and car drivers still haven't seen me. Doesn't mean they set out to kill me though. Mistakes do happen on our roads, people get killed because of mistakes - not dangerous driving in all cases. Here's the campaign from the UK :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI8-_9FrB4

cleveroli · 28-10-2009 12:02pm

I dont think its right that you posted this mans name up on the boards -
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' - This man didnt wake up in the morning and say ' I know, lets go out and kill a biker' I feel sorry for ALL of the families involved. Seven years ago a biker ran into the back of my car cos he was racing his pals who were driving the car behind me - Thank God he was ok - But Ill never forget the shock of seeing him on the road - I dont even remember the impact but all this time later if I see a biker in my mirror I move out of the way...so how this poor man will feel ...
And no Im not anti-biker it takes guts to go on the roads these days in anything never mind a bike- your obviously involved in someway - but dont take your anger out on that man - his life will have changed in that day more than any courts could change it ---and if you are looking for a campaign to fight for - how about the guy in Limerick who beat the livin shi*e out of his 5yr old son for years and will be out in a year and a half - the young lads 10 now and asked the judge to jail his father for 100years...some hope that was goin to happen - Peace Out and may all that read this board NEVER be involved in an accident.

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 12:03pm

I get that he didn't set out to kill anyone, my main gripe is the fact that he got away with a fine. How will a fine prevent the same from happening again?

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 12:05pm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

No, CCTV Showed him pulling out. It didnt show him checking/not checking his mirrors. BIG difference.

CCTV showed him pulling out into the path of the motorcyclist. He either didn't check his mirrors or didn't check them properly.

Owen · 28-10-2009 12:08pm

KamiKazi wrote: »

I get that he didn't set out to kill anyone, my main gripe is the fact that he got away with a fine. How will a fine prevent the same from happening again?

A prison sentence wouldn't prevent the same from happening either, nor would a death sentence.

Put aside your gripe for a minute, and put yourself in his shoes. You've just caused an accident that's killed someone, you've stepped out of the car and seen the body, and the accident scene, you've seen the look on your Son's face. The police arrive, and it all starts to set in, you go home after the accident and can't sleep for weeks on end, go to court, see the man's family crying over his death that's your fault, and afterwards if you ever decide to Google it, this ridiculous thread with your ridiculous comments are forever ingrainied into the Internet.

If you think he got away with a fine, I'd like a ticket to your world please.

Drummerboy08 · 28-10-2009 12:10pm

KamiKazi wrote: »

CCTV showed him pulling out into the path of the motorcyclist. He either didn't check his mirrors or didn't check them properly.

There's a big difference there. He either didnt check them at all, or didnt check them properly. Which is it? Did he check them? Didn't he?

Why couldnt the motorbike stop in time? Was he not prepared for the unexpected? What speed was the bike doing? What was the speed limit on the road where this incident happened? How heavy was the traffic? What was the weather and visibility like?

There are lots of variables. For all you know it could have been the bikers fault.

Stop jumping to stupid, unfounded conclusions. The driver of the car made a mistake. It happens, and unfortunately it cost a man his life. It happens every week on Irish roads.

The driver of the car will feel guilty for the rest of his life, and I'd imagine his son doesnt feel to great about himself either. What more do you want to happen to them?

Overature · 28-10-2009 12:19pm

Check with your local county council they have the going rates that you have to pay if you hit and kill somebody, i think that the fine is lower if the person doesn't die. And the fines vary from county to county, just dont hit anybody and you will be grand

cleveroli · 28-10-2009 12:20pm

I have to agree with Paint Doctor here- Believe me KamiKazi I think that man wud rather have paid a million to turn back time - and not only wud his son have seen the accident- Im assuming that the school bus was there as well so all the class mates wud have seen what happened? Please Kamikazi give this family a chance - if he's a crazy 4x4 driver who cares about no-one else on the road he'll get whats due him in the afterlife - but he cud just have been a dad - trying to get his son to school on time - thinking about the next job he's to go to - a hundred normal things mulling in his brain and then wham his life and that guy on the bikes life changed forever. And if he was a real menace wud he have pulled in to let the two cars off? - believe me where I live they'd brake in front of you and let the kids out and wud'nt give a sh**e if you were trying to get to work or not.

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 12:20pm

cleveroli wrote: »

I dont think its right that you posted this mans name up on the boards -
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' - This man didnt wake up in the morning and say ' I know, lets go out and kill a biker' I feel sorry for ALL of the families involved.

Well it's on news sites etc. but if mods feel that the names should be removed they I'm sure they will edit my post.

cleveroli wrote: »

Seven years ago a biker ran into the back of my car cos he was racing his pals who were driving the car behind me - Thank God he was ok - But Ill never forget the shock of seeing him on the road - I dont even remember the impact but all this time later if I see a biker in my mirror I move out of the way...so how this poor man will feel ...

I'm sure he feels terrible, that's not the point though.

cleveroli wrote: »

And no Im not anti-biker it takes guts to go on the roads these days in anything never mind a bike- your obviously involved in someway - but dont take your anger out on that man - his life will have changed in that day more than any courts could change it ---and if you are looking for a campaign to fight for - how about the guy in Limerick who beat the livin shi*e out of his 5yr old son for years and will be out in a year and a half - the young lads 10 now and asked the judge to jail his father for 100years...some hope that was goin to happen - Peace Out and may all that read this board NEVER be involved in an accident.

Well I won't say what I'd to do guy if I had my way, but prison would be the least of his worries.

Anan1 · 28-10-2009 12:24pm

KamiKazi wrote: »

Well I won't say what I'd to do guy if I had my way, but prison would be the least of his worries.

With respect, that says a lot more you than about the accident.

Drummerboy08 · 28-10-2009 12:26pm

Anan1 wrote: »

With respect, that says a lot more you than about the accident.

Apt name, eh?

KamiKazi · 28-10-2009 12:29pm

Anan1 wrote: »

With respect, that says a lot more you than about the accident.

Well that may be the case, but a year and a half in prison is as unfitting a punishment as a €1000 fine is for causing the death of another motorist is.

galwaytt · 28-10-2009 12:36pm

BigEejit wrote: »

Until such time that all the facts are known no-one here can say whether it was careless or anything else. For all we know it could have been a 40km/h zone and the motorbike was doing 150.

...actually you do know. The record of the court, and as reported in the paper, clearly states: "Imposing sentence, Judge Ó Donnabháin said that it was notable that there were no aggravating factors such as drink, speed or a defective vehicle involved".

Which part of the plain English of the original post do you not understand ?

I'm sick to the teeth of 'motorbike, ergo, speed' horse**** that gets spouted. :mad: It is a fact, and as stated in the current campaign run by the the RSA, that 50% (or thereabouts) of all 'bike accidents are caused by cars. That means that car drivers are NOT paying attention. This case is what happens in when that inattention comes to pass. Although a car person generally, my transport of choice is a motorbike, and I can see both sides of this - it's not as if I've never got a fright in the car myself.

As for the sound/noise, someone commented on ? Well, fwiw, you can take that up with the EU/your local MEP. If they didn't make such a friggin' nonsense of noise laws, you would hear them coming.........the Doppler effect notwithstanding, that is...........

cleveroli · 28-10-2009 12:42pm

Wonder how the wife felt if she turned up in court to see all his biker friends there?? And how'd she'd feel seeing your comment on what you'd like to do to him -- and dont worry you didnt need to publish his name to get payback I'd say if Mallow is like any of the other backwaters in this country it has its own little local rag which will give all the details to the local curtain twitchers - and will probably do a lot more damage to his family than posting his name on this board cud ever do.

Killed a motorcyclist? That'll be €1000 please...

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