Killed a motorcyclist? That'll be €1000 please...

Anan1

QTour wrote: »

Please help me get home safe. I will try to be less annoying to you.

Am I going to Hell for laughing?;)

KamiKazi

JD1763 wrote: »

I can list off a litany of run ins I've had with bad motor cyclists its about as long as the list of run ins I've had with bad motorists. So maybe a bit of perspective on your comments would have more people agreeing with your viewpoint instead of throwing out crass generalisations that do nothing to help your argument. So like I said stop holding them up as some sort of ideal who never do anything wrong or are never to blame in accidents - thats simply not true.

You could list off all your bad run ins with bikes, guarantee you I'll have a longer list of more serious incidents from the forty minute commute into work this morning alone.

BigEejit

KamiKazi wrote: »

You could list off all your bad run ins with bikes, guarantee you I'll have a longer list of more serious incidents from the forty minute commute into work this morning alone.

You have multiple serious incidents with other road users every day, and you come to the conclusion that they are all at fault. Riiiight......

KamiKazi

BigEejit wrote: »

You have multiple serious incidents with other road users every day, and you come to the conclusion that they are all at fault. Riiiight......

Are you really that ignorant? I could start listing them off but it'll take me a while.

Cuddlesworth

BigEejit wrote: »

You have multiple serious incidents with other road users every day, and you come to the conclusion that they are all at fault. Riiiight......

If he paid attention to his training then he has managed to avoid multiple serious incidents every day. Believe it or not, with good foresight and planning you can anticipate anything. And on a bike you have too. If car drivers put the same amount of thinking into their daily commutes the world would be a much better place.

Anan1

BigEejit wrote: »

You have multiple serious incidents with other road users every day, and you come to the conclusion that they are all at fault. Riiiight......

Most of the near-misses i've seen involved cars not seeing bikes rather than vice versa, and I say this as a driver.

QTour

Anan1 wrote: »

Am I going to Hell for laughing?;)

Nah, probably for something worse

Theta

There are a huge amount of generalisations in this thread from both camps. But the way KamiKazi is going on about what happened to the driver of the car would make you think the judge just decided to let him off cause he didnt think the death of the biker was meaningful. The key to this is that a jury of his peers decided that he did not commit dangerous driving.

Thats it in my mind, thats how justice works. Your fate is determined by members of the public and the judge fined the man based on there decision to what the law allowed him.

What did you want the judge to do?? Overrule what had been decided by the jury.

KamiKazi

irlmarc wrote: »

There are a huge amount of generalisations in this thread from both camps. But the way KamiKazi is going on about what happened to the driver of the car would make you think the judge just decided to let him off cause he didnt think the death of the biker was meaningful. The key to this is that a jury of his peers decided that he did not commit dangerous driving.

Thats it in my mind, thats how justice works. Your fate is determined by members of the public and the judge fined the man based on there decision to what the law allowed him.

What did you want the judge to do?? Overrule what had been decided by the jury.

You don't have a problem with that? A person with a driving license being so incompetent at driving that they caused the death of another motorist doesn't even have his license revoked?

Theta

You dont get it do you????

By the jury saying he wasnt a dangerous driver they are saying he is not an incompetent but he like every other motorist at least once made a mistake but he has the misfortune that that mistake took a life and he will have to live with that.

Your trying your best to vilify the man into some kind of mainiac who doesnt know his arse from his elbow.

JD1763

KamiKazi wrote: »

You could list off all your bad run ins with bikes, guarantee you I'll have a longer list of more serious incidents from the forty minute commute into work this morning alone.

And you still manage to completely miss the point. So I'll finish off with the exact same viewpoint as you - because of my bad experience with a number of terrible motor cyclist all motor cyclists are terrible road users with no respect for anyone else and should all be arrested, shot and all their relatives should be banned from driving.

KamiKazi

irlmarc wrote: »

You dont get it do you????

By the jury saying he wasnt a dangerous driver they are saying he is not an incompetent but he like every other motorist at least once made a mistake but he has the misfortune that that mistake took a life and he will have to live with that.

Your trying your best to vilify the man into some kind of mainiac who doesnt know his arse from his elbow.

He was incompetent, and his incompetency cost somebody their life! That is my point.

Theta

KamiKazi wrote: »

He was incompetent, and his incompetency cost somebody their life! That is my point.

So your saying that you have never made a mistake on the road?? Because if you do that instantly makes you incompetent?

KamiKazi

irlmarc wrote: »

So your saying that you have never made a mistake on the road?? Because if you do that instantly makes you incompetent?

If I made a mistake that cost somebody their life I'd accept that fact and would not plead not guilty.

It's vehicular manslaughter, plain and simple.

faceman

I drive both a car and a bike. I love being on my bike.

However I do more mileage in my car each year than on the bike - and i do alot of mileage on the bike. Yet I have completed more training for the bike than the car. Does that make sense? My car is in effect, more likely to cause harm to others than my bike is, yet i have more training on my bike. Is there something wrong there?

Ive been involved in 2 collisions on the bike, the second one writing off the bike I was on. I use the word collision and not accident, because accident implies no one was at fault. Im sure the other drivers' in both cases didnt intend to be at fault, but it didnt change the circumstances of both collisions. Fortunately, Ive never been involved in a collision whilst driving my car.

Despite this, i still ride bikes. Maybe that implies I have a deathwish and dont deserve respect on the roads? I dont know, but i dont think it does.

We can call it whatever technical term necessary. But a biker has died and it could have been avoided. I dont think its fair to use the driver as a scapegoat here for the mistakes of other car drivers either. It seems from reading this thread that some people think that is the answer.

I wonder though. What if the penalty for driving dangerously or carelessly and injuring/killing a motorcyclist was extorionate and well publicised? I cant speak about this case obviously as its in the past, but as car drivers, do you think it would make you extra vigilant when making maneouvers like this?

Since penalty points were introduced, we have seen reported improvements annual in road safety. There seems to be a clear relationship between the penalty for breaking the law and choosing to break the law.

It might be something the RSA/dept of Justice consider.

Just as a footnote and to clear up all the statistics that fly around relating to motorcycle incidents on the road. There has only ever been one comprehensive European study into the reasons for motorcycle accidents. its called MAIDS and is sponsored by ACEM, the European Association of Motorcycle Manufacturers, supported by a group of 9 partners. MAIDS was co-funded by the European Commission.

IN the study 15.5% of motorcycle incidents were single vehicle incidents but the report goes deeper than this and breaks it down further by catergorising the power of the bike. E.g. higher powered bikes were more frequently involved in single vehicle incidents than lower powered. However, and quite interestingly, the % of lower powered bikes involved in collisions with other vehicles in urban areas was 23% higher than higher powered bikes.

36.6% of incidents were at the fault of other vehicle drivers failure to perceive the biker. Decision failure on the biker's part contributed to 13% of cases. (i.e. the biker failed to make the correct decision) The stats are broken down in more detail however.

In 85.6% of cases, bikers were deemed to be travelling at the correct speed, either in terms of the speed limit or of that of the flow of traffic.

In summary, the main primary contributing factors to incidents were the biker (37.1%) and other vehicle drivers (50.4%).

Theta

KamiKazi wrote: »

If I made a mistake that cost somebody their life I'd accept that fact and would not plead not guilty.

It's vehicular manslaughter, plain and simple.

YOU think it is! The jury does not and they get to decide.

Drummerboy08

This thread has turned into a trainwreck now.

KamiKazi

irlmarc wrote: »

YOU think it is! The jury does not and they get to decide.

OK well riddle me this. How will a €1000 fine prevent this from happening in future?

Theta

Well someone died because of a mistake he made so I can tell you he will never made the same mistake again. The 1000 euro fine was not there to prevent him from making the same mistake again. The fact he will have to live with the bikers death will.

You would swear he is just going to brush it off no because he paid the fine!

Drummerboy08

KamiKazi wrote: »

OK well riddle me this. How will a €1000 fine prevent this from happening in future?

It wont. Simple as. Neither will jail time, death, or anything else along those lines. How will putting this man in jail, taking him away from his family, all for making a mistake help prevent this from happening again? It wont.

The ONLY thing that will help prevent this is better driver training - for both motorists and motorcyclists.

KamiKazi

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It wont. Simple as. Neither will jail time, death, or anything else along those lines. How will putting this man in jail, taking him away from his family, all for making a mistake help prevent this from happening again? It wont.

The ONLY thing that will help prevent this is better driver training - for both motorists and motorcyclists.

That's my point, why wasn't he made redo his driving test, do some driver training or anything that would have prevented this? I know throwing him in prison won't help.

But in reality all the judge said was "Pay the €1000 dead biker toll, and be on your way"

Drummerboy08

KamiKazi wrote: »

That's my point, why wasn't he made redo his driving test, do some driver training or anything that would have prevented this? I know throwing him in prison won't help.

But in reality all the judge said was "Pay the €1000 dead biker toll, and be on your way"

I agree with you. He should be made take an advanced driver training course. And then resit his test. The big problem is, the mess that the testing network is in at the minute.

I think anyone who is convicted of any offence as a result on an RTA or otherwise should be made take a training course and resit their test.

It'l never happen though.

cascade35

KamiKazi wrote: »

OK well riddle me this. How will a €1000 fine prevent this from happening in future?

No amount of money or a long jail sentence will stop this from happening in the future.
People make mistakes which lead to accidents which can sometimes lead to loss of life.
No one leaves their house thinking if i kill someone on the road im gonna jail or i will receive a fine.

Something i think might make drivers more aware would be to errect a sign at every fatal accident location.
On the sign would be a picture of the deceased,their age,time of accident etc, (family consent would be needed here).

We have all passed the scene of a fatal crash and in alot of cases not realised it.

KamiKazi

cascade35 wrote: »

No amount of money or a long jail sentence will stop this from happening in the future.
People make mistakes which lead to accidents which can sometimes lead to loss of life.
No one leaves their house thinking if i kill someone on the road im gonna jail or i will receive a fine.

That's obvious. Why was the driver not made do some driver training or resit his driving test?

Zulu

KamiKazi wrote: »

If I made a mistake that cost somebody their life I'd accept that fact and would not plead not guilty.

Sure. Sure you would. Only they don't allow shiny moral high horses into prison, so you'd need to climb down before being jailed.

Noone would look for a jail sentance, saying you would is moronic.

KamiKazi

Zulu wrote: »

Sure. Sure you would. Only they don't allow shiny moral high horses into prison, so you'd need to climb down before being jailed.

Noone would look for a jail sentance, saying you would is moronic.

See post above, kthx.

Cuddlesworth

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The ONLY thing that will help prevent this is better driver training - for both motorists and motorcyclists.

Can't speak for motorists but you might want to read from post 22 onwards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055711356&page=2

galwaytt

BigEejit wrote: »

Good point, but there are no mentions of road conditions or bends in the road etc. Anyone know where this happened? are there bends that would have obscured the motorbike? Was it raining or recently finished raining?So you are honestly saying that motorbike drivers are less likely to speed than car drivers?

Again, I'll refer you to the plain English language, as used by the Judge. You can safely assume (by ommission) that when he says there were no aggravating factors, that that includes the scapegoat you are trying to find to shift the blame to the motorcycle rider.

BigEejit wrote: »

ah, the glass half full argument, how about 50% of motorbike accidents are caused by motorbikes.This is all it is

When everyone is trying to blame all motorcycle accidents on motorcyclists, 50% (could be even higher), is a lot more than the so-called 'innocent' car driver likes to hear. This because they don't like admitting they are responsible for anything.

BigEejit wrote: »

Yeah, we would all _love_ to hear motorbikes for 30 seconds before we even see them. Purely from a safety point of view of course.

If people complain that they can't hear them, then, ergo, if you can hear them, it's a safety contribution.

BigEejit wrote: »

... This was an accident, the guy could just as easily have pulled out in front of a car with no lights on in the rain or something.

Yes, you are 100% correct. But that doesn't give you licence to start looking for reasons to shift blame, just 'cos it's a bike. You're forgetting (conveniently), that there was a 13yr old who just narrowly missed being involved.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I dont know about anyone else, but in my experience, bikers like to hug the rear drivers side wing of my car. This makes it -

This is the IAM and RoSPA position for a bike, to right of centre of lane, and positioning to overtake.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

- Very hard for any other motorist to spot the bike,

..then you're not looking hard enough, and have no cognisance of your blind spot.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

- Very hard for me to concentrate on whats ahead of me, particularly at night when its headlight is shining directly into my wing mirror

Well, you need to take that up with the EU. Headlights are now mandated on, and there is no switch to turn it off.

QUOTE=Drummerboy08;62732921On top of this, bikers like to weave in and out of heavy traffic, with a tendency to appear out of nowhere from behind an artic. Very hard for a driver to prepare and allow for this.[/QUOTE] Just like car drivers, not all m/c's follow the rules, I'm sure. I'm equally sure that the interest of the vast majority of m/c riders is.........self-preservation, and defensive riding is the name of the game. That a m/c can execute a passing maneouvre more quickly than a car, behing an artic, doesn't make it some sort of......offence.........more, that the cars are bigger, and easier to see, slower to overtake, and so easier to spot. That's a + to the bike, and a - to a car, imho, and car drivers need to realise that in situations where there are m/c's in the vicinity, that the cars - no matter how much they cost, nor how big the engine - are always going to be the underperformer. It's just physics - power/weight ratio, that's all. Car drivers just need to learn that there are vehicles that operate either side of their own method of transport - slower and faster. It's just they keep concentrating on the former, and forget the latter.........

If motorcyclists spent as much time thinking about whats up ahead, as opposed to how to get by it, they'd be a bit safer. I honestly think that alot of motorcyclists put themselves into silly positions..

....we are not infallible, I agree, but by the same token we already spend more time concentrating on the road, and traffic than car drivers. And including those NOT in front of us. Oh that car drivers would do similar - then there'd be no more '..out of nowhere..' statements. We don't come out of nowhere - we are where you're not/too lazy, to look, in the first place.

KamiKazi wrote: »

No aggregrating factors would include weather I'd imagine. And parking too close to a bend to be able to rejoin traffic would be the car drivers fault.

Agree

KamiKazi wrote: »

Honestly, bikes don't speed that much - I think most car drivers have that impression because bikes can accelerate away from lights etc. so much faster. And on the flip side of that the brakes on bikes usually mean they'll outbrake cars too. If you see someone one a big sports bike or whatever they've more than likely done advanced training courses, insurance assesments and maybe even track days / racing. How many yuppies in BMW's and Audi's have done anything more than the legal requirement? They are much more dangerous than bikes IMHO.

Indeed. I find that, especially on a small bike, that car drivers go around as if they have some point to prove, and that I'm an 'obstacle' they simply must overtake. They need to get over it. No matter how much you spend in Halfords, or MaxPower - still makes your car slower to accelerate than my Aprilia scooter, so get over it.

Drummerboy08

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Can't speak for motorists but you might want to read from post 22 onwards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055711356&page=2

Shame they wouldnt bring that out for motorists too.

galwaytt

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Shame they wouldnt bring that out for motorists too.

I agree. All that's wrong here is: education, training. It's not malice.

And, if you ever hated school, but love cars/bikes/etc, training is actually very enjoyable and sociable.