News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

F3

dudmis wrote: »

F3, thanks for unearthing this info.

If we are to take the glass is half full approach, if an official 5 yr timeframe has now been imposed upon us, there is now no excuse for SISPAR not to make the harbour amenable to the community - esp. seeing as they got a free 'get out of jail' card. Up to now, the main problem, as I have seen it, is that work was always just around the corner, so there was no point in spending any money landscaping etc. That reason is no longer valid.

And being completely optimistic (and prob. naive) about it - perhaps some level of transparency/accountability will now be forced into the process.

(yes, I have been drinking )

I can't take all the thanks, there are two other like minded researchers that have been trawling the public records for a week to find out this information. And there is a lot more to come.

Fiachra2

Can I sugest that those who are interested in finding out about the time extension, email the town clerk today and the matter can come up under correspondence. Best to email a few councillors as well in case the email is "overlooked"

Cheeky Chops

This STINKS.

I know the public are not allowed to table questions at the TC meeting but are the media?

There are many journalists from both tabloid, broadsheet and RTE that live in the area and should perhaps be made aware of the meeting. Perhaps Press Accreditation will force answers from those whom are accountable.

I imagine that if it has not already begun an investigation by the Standards in Public Investigation Office will soon commence. At least they have the power to compel the attendance of witnesses.

Well done F3 for unearthing more of the rot that has destroyed our harbour.

recedite

F3 wrote: »

What this means, is that the construction should have been complete by the time the concession commences, which was to be this year [2012] add 30 year concession [running the harbour and marina] = 2042

The CAG reported in 2010 figures [published in September 2011] that concession commences 2017. that is a 5 year extension of time granted by WCC to Sispar.

Who gets the concession for the marina up till 2017 then?
Apparently some sort of floating berths are due to be installed and leased out this year, so there will be some income from it.

F3

recedite wrote: »

Who gets the concession for the marina up till 2017 then?
Apparently some sort of floating berths are due to be installed and leased out this year, so there will be some income from it.

Hi Recedite,

Read between the lines, no berths this year. The recent meeting attended by 150 potential clients, was met with an amateur presentation with "this is the first of 3 market testing meetings"

F3

What I'm saying is, in my opinion, they never expected such a turn out. If i were a boater, looking to join a new marina, I would have expected a full marina pack glossy brochure with all my questions answered and a date for completion. there was nothing. NOTHING. What this tells me is that they expected a handful of tyre kickers. Then offer up an diluted solution on the basis that the demand for a full marina is not required. then put a cheap and cheerful small 'marina solution' before the council. and if accepted try and recover the first €5m bond. whooops, didn't work lads. What do you do now?

legrand

Was not able to attend GTC meeting last evening. Any news/updates ?

F3

Not there mysel, but got a call afterwards. TF & GM have raised the question formally, and will write to WCC to get a straight answer. There were others at the meeting who did not want the matter discussed at all, citing untruths, and naysayers i.e. the usual tiresome dribble. But I think in this case, the Auditor & Comptroller General may have it right, and those one or two TC's just might have it wrong.

F3

Greystones Guide Press release 25th April 2012 from Councillor Mitchell

Harbour Developers intend to complete development
Press Release from Cllr Derek Mitchell
 
Sispar, who have developed Greystones Harbour, have written to the Town Council stating that they intend to complete the development. Other points in the letter include;
 
·        Funding is expected soon for the Medical Centre which has been delayed, as have many throughout Ireland. A commitment is given to grass the area if it does not proceed soon.
·        The hundreds of members of the local clubs that are now occupying their compounds will bring the harbour to life this Summer.
·        Safety bollards have been placed to separate people and cars because of the large number of visitors.
·        Other work is being done such as filling in the ‘borrow pit’, beach replenishment and the Harbour Master is supervising the area and carrying out normal repairs.
·        The temporary fencing is of better quality than other organisation’s permanent fencing around the area.
·        They are currently designing the marina.
 
Sispar accept that the North end of the site is not attractive but say it will be needed for future construction activity and work done would have to be redone. They hope to meet the Cliff Walk Management Committee and consider whether a practical and economic solution can be found. They also commit to reviewing the plan every year in the light of changing circumstances. 
 
‘Previously the Council neglected the harbour for a century and the new harbour is great for the town. I am concerned that GUBOH and others continuously do down the project and thus the town. In these difficult times it is important to work with Sispar not to keep confronting them as GUBOH do. Cooperation is the way forward!!’
 
25/04/2012
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Tags: Cllr Derek Mitchell, co. Wicklow, Greystones Harbour, Greystones Town Council, GUBOH, Sispar
Category: Cllr Derek Mitchell, Harbour Updates

F3

F3 wrote: »

Greystones Guide Press release 25th April 2012 from Councillor Mitchell

Harbour Developers intend to complete development
Press Release from Cllr Derek Mitchell
 
Sispar, who have developed Greystones Harbour, have written to the Town Council stating that they intend to complete the development. Other points in the letter include;
 
·        Funding is expected soon for the Medical Centre which has been delayed, as have many throughout Ireland. A commitment is given to grass the area if it does not proceed soon.
·        The hundreds of members of the local clubs that are now occupying their compounds will bring the harbour to life this Summer.
·        Safety bollards have been placed to separate people and cars because of the large number of visitors.
·        Other work is being done such as filling in the ‘borrow pit’, beach replenishment and the Harbour Master is supervising the area and carrying out normal repairs.
·        The temporary fencing is of better quality than other organisation’s permanent fencing around the area.
·        They are currently designing the marina.
 
Sispar accept that the North end of the site is not attractive but say it will be needed for future construction activity and work done would have to be redone. They hope to meet the Cliff Walk Management Committee and consider whether a practical and economic solution can be found. They also commit to reviewing the plan every year in the light of changing circumstances. 
 
‘Previously the Council neglected the harbour for a century and the new harbour is great for the town. I am concerned that GUBOH and others continuously do down the project and thus the town. In these difficult times it is important to work with Sispar not to keep confronting them as GUBOH do. Cooperation is the way forward!!’
 
25/04/2012
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Tags: Cllr Derek Mitchell, co. Wicklow, Greystones Harbour, Greystones Town Council, GUBOH, Sispar
Category: Cllr Derek Mitchell, Harbour Updates

So Derek, this is all GUBOH's fault?

Why don't you face up to reality once and for all. You have elected yourself as being the public representative with his finger on the pulse in matters relating to the harbour. Are you not in even the slightest bit embarrassed that you've been sold a "pup"? Explain if you will why you have not reported to all of us that Wicklow County Council granted an additional 5 years to Sispar in 2010 to complete this development? Did you know? Personally I don't believe you did, yet you must be completely entrenched in your own biligerence when you make press releases as you do above. You have a duty as a public representative to those who elected you. At this stage surely you must know the difference?

Yes or No are perfectly reasonable answers to questions posed. The disruption period of 5 years (from 2007 to 2012) to the town to construct this harbour has doubled currently 2007 to 2017 according to the Comptroller and Auditor General who published this fact in September 2011. That is 10 years!!

The coastline is being hammered as we speak, with the second raft of easterly storms this year. How many further meters of erossion will have occurred over and above the planned 700mm per annum on the North Beach. I'm sure the photos will be coming soon and comparisons made. Your comrade made a recent press release to say that the beach nourishment was imminent since Sispar have not bothered to comply with the planning requirements since 2008. Do you think we are all complete idiots? They are only addressing this as a result of GUBOH's continued pressure.

You forget, GUBOH are a collection of normal people who live in this town, who have come together to do a job that you are paid to do and that is to make sure that the town is protected.

Why don't you be honest for once and for all and tell everyone the truth. Which is that you have no idea what is going on and you have no control over any matters associated with the harbour.

You say Sispar will complete the development in the future. Thats about as accurate as saying we will colonise the planet Mars in the future.

We are only interested in making Greystones a destination town now, we will not put up with a Ghost Harbour any longer.

Please do your job, and stop misrepresenting the facts to the people.

Langerland

Forgice my ignorance, but I've just been hearing this for a few years....

· Funding is expected soon for the Medical Centre which has been delayed, as have many throughout Ireland. A commitment is given to grass the area if it does not proceed soon. SOON??????
· The hundreds of members of the local clubs that are now occupying their compounds will bring the harbour to life this Summer. COMPOUNDS = CAGES
· Safety bollards have been placed to separate people and cars because of the large number of visitors.
· Other work is being done such as filling in the ‘borrow pit’, beach replenishment and the Harbour Master is supervising the area and carrying out normal repairs. HAS THERE?
· The temporary fencing is of better quality than other organisation’s permanent fencing around the area. YES - GREEN AND GREY CAGES ARE BETTER THEN GREY HOARDINGS
· They are currently designing the marina. DID THEY NOT DESIGN THIS BEFORE THEY STARTED???:eek:

MyPerfectCousin

Langerland wrote: »

· They are currently designing the marina. DID THEY NOT DESIGN THIS BEFORE THEY STARTED???:eek:

You win the thread, Langerland!

pixbyjohn

F3,
Why don't you post your reply to Derek Mitchell on the Greystones guide site, thats where he posted his "press release"
You make good points but face him up on the Greystones guide where you will have to use your real name :rolleyes:

darter

pixbyjohn wrote: »

F3,
... where you will have to use your real name ...

This is exactly the problem with all the screaming and shouting and Khrushchev-like shoe bashing done here. We are (almost) all anonymous, so are ignored.

In contrast, on facebook GUBOH is known to comprise respected town individuals who cannot be so easily dismissed.

All the posturing done here is exactly that. Once GUBOH had sent up their fb page, all of the discussions should have migrated to it, and they have in the main apart from a stubborn few who are content to shout from the wings but are not willing to stand up on the stage and say what they have to say.

Time for us all to abandon this thread and express ourselves through fb and other public channels.

Cheeky Chops

darter wrote: »

This is exactly the problem with all the screaming and shouting and Khrushchev-like shoe bashing done here. We are (almost) all anonymous, so are ignored.

In contrast, on facebook GUBOH is known to comprise respected town individuals who cannot be so easily dismissed.

All the posturing done here is exactly that. Once GUBOH had sent up their fb page, all of the discussions should have migrated to it, and they have in the main apart from a stubborn few who are content to shout from the wings but are not willing to stand up on the stage and say what they have to say.

Time for us all to abandon this thread and express ourselves through fb and other public channels.

I don't agree and I find this thread extremely informative. Not everyone is on Facebook. Giving an opinion on here is not about "a stubborn few who are content to shout from the wings but are not willing to stand up on the stage and say what they have to say." Forums are commonplace and are a platform for us to give opinions without relinquishing our personal identities. Public representatives releasing so called aggressive PR have made a decision to be just that - public. I have not.

Fiachra2

From Derek Mitchells press release.

A commitment is given to grass the area if it (the medical centre)does not proceed soon.

Mitchell sugests that this is something new.Sispar Met with GUBOH in april 2011 (one year ago). They gave us a comitment that If the PCC was not built Christmas 2011 they would grass the area.

So here we are a year later yet Mitchell criticses GUBOH for not working with the developer?

Of course we should not forget that Cllr Mitchell has in the past implied that he has no problem with the harbour staying as it is for another decade or so.


However at least we got bollards. Thats a big relief!

With regard to F3 going on the Greystones guide I would understand his desire for anonymity. But rest assured Pix, it will be addressed on that forum in due course.

recedite

Fiachra2 wrote: »

However at least we got bollards. Thats a big relief!

The red rubber bendy dildos at the steps? if a car reverses into one of those it'll go straight over the edge

F3

Guys, I understand your points of view, but I do not wish to put myself out there in a public contest. Please believe me when I tell you that I make all my points directly. I've no political aspirations nor do I look for recognition in what I do. This thread has been viewed 127,000 times and often upto 400 views per day. Alot of people keep themselves informed of this matter via boards. GUBOH has 800 members on its FB group, but it also has 3,000+ signatures from town people supporting our cause. not everyone has a face book page, boards is more accessible and far less complicated than Facebook.

Do not underestimate the value of this thread in reaching out to a wider audience.

The Durutti Column

Originally Posted by darter

This is exactly the problem with all the screaming and shouting and Khrushchev-like shoe bashing done here. We are (almost) all anonymous, so are ignored.

In contrast, on facebook GUBOH is known to comprise respected town individuals who cannot be so easily dismissed.

All the posturing done here is exactly that. Once GUBOH had sent up their fb page, all of the discussions should have migrated to it, and they have in the main apart from a stubborn few who are content to shout from the wings but are not willing to stand up on the stage and say what they have to say.

Time for us all to abandon this thread and express ourselves through fb and other public channels.

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I don't agree and I find this thread extremely informative. Not everyone is on Facebook. Giving an opinion on here is not about "a stubborn few who are content to shout from the wings but are not willing to stand up on the stage and say what they have to say." Forums are commonplace and are a platform for us to give opinions without relinquishing our personal identities. Public representatives releasing so called aggressive PR have made a decision to be just that - public. I have not.

I agree with Cheeky. Facebook is really not suitable for a discussion. The same points keep coming up on the GUBOH FB page, but nobody can find any previous contribution on the topic unless they scroll back through thousands of pages of posts and comments. There is just a timeline, with no division into pages, subjects, categories, etc etc. STUFF GETS LOST!! And, censored. Some, including me on occasion, may complain of the mods here, but FB just accepts mischievous complaints from the likes of Ciaran Hayden and removes entirely innocuous comments without any effective appeal mechanism.

In fact, I know of several group pages on FB whose members are migrating to forums like this precisely because of FB's unsuitability as an organised forum for discussion. After all, it started as a messaging system and that's still largely what it is.

Annasopra

The Durutti Column wrote: »

Originally Posted by darter

I agree with Cheeky. Facebook is really not suitable for a discussion. The same points keep coming up on the GUBOH FB page, but nobody can find any previous contribution on the topic unless they scroll back through thousands of pages of posts and comments. There is just a timeline, with no division into pages, subjects, categories, etc etc. STUFF GETS LOST!! And, censored. Some, including me on occasion, may complain of the mods here, but FB just accepts mischievous complaints from the likes of Ciaran Hayden and removes entirely innocuous comments without any effective appeal mechanism.

In fact, I know of several group pages on FB whose members are migrating to forums like this precisely because of FB's unsuitability as an organised forum for discussion. After all, it started as a messaging system and that's still largely what it is.

At least here you have identified mods that you can gripe about and at

The Durutti Column

Everyone knows that Sispar have stated they "intend" to complete the development.

They told GUBOH that last June. They have said it at Town Council meetings. They have said it at Harbour Liaison Committee meetings.

It's amazing that Derek thinks this is news.

It's also amazing that the man who signed the contract on behalf of Wicklow County Council does not seem to know that the same WCC have given Sispar a free pass to double the construction time.

I say free pass intentionally — it's a free pass because WCC did not seek anything in return for this. On the contrary, they gave away the community amenities we were supposed to get, the very raison d'etre for having a Public Private Partnership in the first place and which Derek is always boasting about, even though he seems not to care how long it takes to deliver them.

They just gave it. They did not negotiate, they did not say to Sispar "OK, guys, we will give you an extension, but you have to finish Phase 1 first".

The extension was given in mid-2010, two years ago, which is why people began to notice signs of Sispar mothballing the site once the harbour itself was complete — without Phase 1 being finished.

What is left of P1 to finish? The clubhouses, public square and related aspects, and the marina.

WCC could have got all this in place in return for the extra five years. Then we would all have been happy. Nobody except Sispar would have cared if the housing and offices were completed in 2017 or 2127 or never. There would have been no GUBOH, no pesky citizens annoying hard-working public representatives such as Derek with their whingeing and complaining.

But Derek didn't know!

I believe that too.

Because WCC and Sispar, partners in the PPP, concealed this dirty deal from the public, from two Mayors, from the Town Council, from the HLC, and from the County Councillors and TDs who have tried to move this matter along since the foundation of GUBOH. At every juncture, they spoke of matters as if the original schedule was still in place but just a little delayed (as in, taking twice as long as planned) and that only the funding problem or NAMA prevented progress.

To the residents of the harbour area, to GUBOH, to the Town Council, to the Harbour Users Group — to everyone, they have displayed total bad faith and employed gross deception to conceal what they had actually done.

Derek needs to take a hard look at what Sispar and WCC have done, and his own role as their local flag-waver and cheerleader.

And it was two members of GUBOH who dug the facts of this situation out of the annual reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Anybody still think GUBOH is a waste of space?

The Durutti Column

mango salsa wrote: »

At least here you identified mods that you can gripe about and at

Quite so, Mango. And if it ever comes to that, there is also a clear and fairly quick appeal procedure. You should see the email chain involved in the Byzantine procedures of FB, with its 'customer assistance' nerds extremely well trained in the arts of missing the point and obfuscation.

F3

I've learnt much about local politics in the last 12 months but probably the most significant is that they inwardly rely upon research and opinion of genuinely hard working members of the public concerned about specific civic issues.

What is both frustrating and amusing, is that they will purport to take action on complaints made by Joe or Jane public, but really do nothing, and certainly never follow up. They generally move like collective treacle rolling down hill with no individual maverick taking lead on a particular issue. However, once they learn about facts supported by research and have a bibliography to tie their point to, then they take action [sometimes forthright action].

This is why Boards is so important to getting the message out. If we learn to provide the research that the Public Representatives appear to struggle in finding themselves, then they will take action themselves.

The amusing part, is that when they take full ownership they forget who did the hard work! Anyway, I find it frustratingly amusing, but so long as we get to where the matter ought to be, I don't care who takes the chequered flag just so long as someone gets over the finish line!!!!!

F3

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

For ****'s sake. This is criminal.

I'm close to despondency. I hate going near the place the devastation is so apparent.

Well if we ever needed a picture postcard to exemplify the abhorrent greed that has ripped this country to pieces than that is it.

Certain Councilors have made very firm press releases that are not after the picture postcard element of the new harbour, its simply not important to him or the people that elected him???? perhaps???

Cheeky Chops

I am fed up with saying it. Will GUBOH call a public meeting?

Maudi

The Durutti Column wrote: »

Just to add: the same letter from Sean Quirke of WCC to Bord Pleanala stated that the last beach survey took place in 2010. Another obligation abandoned — beach surveys were mandated to take place at six months intervals initially and then annually.

So, no beach survey in 2011, none so far in 2012, no fresh nourishment placed despite announcing it via Cllr Hayden, erosion increasing at a dangerous rate. And WCC and Sispar walk away. Great!!

What do their cheerleaders have to say? Either nothing at all, or that everything is fine and NAMA will fund the health centre — which has no planning permission yet! These people need to wake up and smell the coffee...

itl be more than coffee that they will be smelling when the old dump is exposed..you can only imagine what will be washed out from it...+when i was down there was a constant trickle and falls of bits of stone...its dangerous...and an accident waiting to happen...the make upof the soil is mostly sand and gravel mixed with marley type clay...if it was along a road ....the road would be closed....f.f.s thousands was spent along the cliff walk to contain less material from falling..mark my words..

Cheeky Chops

mirekb wrote: »

Do we need GUBOH to call the meeting? We could have a meeting where all groups were invited to discuss it and that would take the pressure off there being an agenda from either side.

Hi, because they are in a position to call for one. I don't believe they have any agenda other than getting this mess sorted out. Yes it has got political but that is because of the incompetence of WCC and the utter arrogance and contempt shown by certain public representatives. GUBOH are in the perfect position to call a public meeting that, imo, will be supported by the people of the Wicklow. I can't call one, if I could I would!

F3

F3 wrote: »

Dear John,

I understand your views, and agree that a GUBOH public meeting might be appropriate at some point soon, but feel I must correct your facts. The view about GUBOH being a small minority of disgruntled residents has been taken essentially by only one Town Councilor, not Wicklow County Councilors and not Government Ministers.(and thus not all elected public representatives as your blog portrays) GUBOH has now raised their reasonable requests (that have been well publicised over the last 12 months) to Wicklow County Councilor level and to TD level. GUBOH is a Facebook group of concerned members of the community, their support has been constant and communications consistent. GUBOH do not need to sing from the tree tops to gain credibility, GUBOH have provided and publicised a list of reasonable requests, nothing more and nothing less. GUBOH are not politicians GUBOH are not looking for your vote. If you agree with what GUBOH want then that's fantastic, if you want something more or less, then write to whomever you feel needs to hear your views and to make the changes you require to what's going on. The leading voices in GUBOH are well informed ordinary people, who have taken their own time to put their views and the views of their members across to those that have the power to implement change. They are not looking to sell an idea or manifesto to gain support. As a GUBOH member, you can always put your point across about what you want and it will be discussed debated and put forward as a GUBOH requirement if agreed and consented to be reasonable. You can do this publically, or privately and most of our members choose to contact the leaders privately. If any of you wish to speak with the leaders of GUBOH let me know and I could arrange a meeting for you to discuss you views and questions. PM me in this regard. Please don't feel that GUBOH are elected public reps as they are not. GUBOH is a group of people of 800 Facebook members and over 2,500 signatories that have strong views based upon common sense and fairness to all in the community. GUBOH are not against the development, and never have been. GUBOH's only demand is that whilst the market is waiting to recover, Sispar need to implant whatever actions are necessary to make Greytones a destination town once more, and give a proper amenity back to the people of Greystones. I hope this goes some of the way to explaining what GUBOH is. GUBOH have made great progress over the past 12 months and have a achieved significant milestone recently with the support of the key public representatives in Wicklow.

I feel that time is getting closer to call a public meeting, but if we can wait a little longer to allow the TD's to do their job. Steven Donnelly, Simon Harris and Anne Ferris are all demanding answers from Eddie Seedy ( County Manager ) and Sean Quirks ( director of services in charge of the harbour) as we speak. If they fail to right this issue in early course, Then i feel no more GUBOH blue banners, it's GUBOH Red banners and public protest, and national media cover to save our town! Believe me there will be public meetings and plenty of them.

mirekb

EDIT: F3 got in there first!

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

Hi, because they are in a position to call for one. I don't believe they have any agenda other than getting this mess sorted out. Yes it has got political but that is because of the incompetence of WCC and the utter arrogance and contempt shown by certain public representatives. GUBOH are in the perfect position to call a public meeting that, imo, will be supported by the people of the Wicklow. I can't call one, if I could I would!

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound negative by using the word 'agenda'. I just meant that if we really wanted a meeting we could have one. The GUBOH people are all working incredibly hard (and voluntarily) and deserve to be heard fairly. If they organise a meeting some people may use it as an excuse to make them into the problem. If someone else does then it becomes open and 'GUBOH AGAINST WCC' can't be made the issue. GUBOH can't be turned (unfairly) into the aggressors as I believe they are being now.

Of course if GUBOH want to have a meeting then I will be there to cheer them on. They haven't had one yet and are in danger of losing support because they may start to be perceived as another closed group unwilling to deal with public participation - which I don't believe is true.

F3

mirekb wrote: »

EDIT: F3 got in there first!



Sorry, I didn't mean to sound negative by using the word 'agenda'. I just meant that if we really wanted a meeting we could have one. The GUBOH people are all working incredibly hard (and voluntarily) and deserve to be heard fairly. If they organise a meeting some people may use it as an excuse to make them into the problem. If someone else does then it becomes open and 'GUBOH AGAINST WCC' can't be made the issue. GUBOH can't be turned (unfairly) into the aggressors as I believe they are being now.

Of course if GUBOH want to have a meeting then I will be there to cheer them on. They haven't had one yet and are in danger of losing support because they may start to be perceived as another closed group unwilling to deal with public participation - which I don't believe is true.

See my last comment mirekb