News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

pixbyjohn

Greystones Harbour 4/4/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn

Greystones Harbour 4/4/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

The Bishop Basher

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Greystones Harbour 4/4/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

Super shot John

pixbyjohn

Greystones Harbour 4/4/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn

Greystones Harbour 4/4/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn

Greystones Harbour 4/4/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

MyPerfectCousin

Fiachra2 wrote: »

A few points are worth making here.

The Greystones guide provides a very useful service because it publishes all the material sent to it. This is not the case with newspapers who can pick and choose what they publish and do not always do so impartially.

I agree that the Guide facility is being "abused" by some local councillors to issue repetitive confrontational statements. I would argue that this is not the case with GUBOH.

I would agree with all that.

And while the newspapers may pick and choose based on their editorial views, they also, presumably, pick and choose based on "newsworthiness". They don't do a great job, but if they did, they would cover this story with original reporting and quotes -- not full unedited statements -- from involved politicians all within the same story to provide a balanced view.

I like the idea of the Greystones Guide publishing everything in full as a non-partisan, non-editorial local clearinghouse, but I wish it would do a better job of distinguishing the sources of each post. It may be as simple as putting the source at the top rather than the bottom of each article. I don't like to see a headline saying something like "Progress at Harbour" and then find out halfway down or at the end that its from a very biased source with a certain agenda.

Pat-ience

Thank you for your responses.

Fiachra2 wrote: »

A few points are worth making here.
The Greystones guide provides a very useful service

I'd agree!

Fiachra2 wrote: »

However we avoid engaging in any "slagging matches"

I accept that.

I am referring to those who make strong and harsh 'personal comments' when I say:
better to rise above 'confrontational statements' from any quarter.
State the facts.
Make one's point.
Getting 'personal' achieves nothing.
In fact it takes away from one's case.

'Our last press release did make reference to the comments by other councillors.'

That is understandable one would have to answer inaccuracies made.
I am talking about 'personal remarks' here.

'We do not intend to get dragged down to that level of personal abuse'.

I accept that.

'What happens here or on facebook is an altogther different matter.'

What happens here is moderated.
What is happening on Facebook is that Facebook itself has been called upon to 'moderate' the 'personal abuse'.

'I feel that a few of them are pointless and would agree that they are a waste of energy. '

This is my point.

'But thats people and without them we dont have supporters or a campaign....

Thats some people. I'm sure quite a number of supporters of the campaign would not subscribe to the current level of personal attack.

If all the good folk of Greystones went the 'personal abuse' route, the cause would lose a lot of supporters and well wishers very quickly.

'I regret that some people find the debate so tedious they have to leave.'

Nowhere did I say the debate was tedious.
Recently some contributors have been very unpleasant online.
For that reason I have left the Facebook group.

'The cause is worth a bit of effort on your part.'

I agree as the wonderful photographs above remind me.
I have just left the Facebook group
where the personal attacks became too frequent and too unpleasant.

But .... and I am only throwing this out there...
I wonder
am I wrong in thinking that the nature of that FB page is changing

and that what can be a very informative page
(I'm thinking most recently on the discussion on erosion)

has just become a 'slag off a One Individual' page
and that people are getting tired of this and not 'tuning in'.

I may well be wrong about this
(and I see that there were new members recently)
but is there less traffic?

F3 wrote: »

Here's what I think, the war of words is sometimes necessary, as to not respond allows nonsense to go unchecked publicly and becomes accepted by all.....It's your choice as to whether you want to support GUBOH when they are a happy clappy with bucket and spade gang or when the lies become intollerable and a more forthright campaign is required sometimes an apparent negativity is also required to stop the lies to the community. As a person I don't like it either, but if this is the small bit of pain I have to endure to get our harbour back then I'll do it, I'm sorry that you've given up you support for GUBOH. And ask you to perhaps reconsider, I know these people, and they are all very good people, honest and honourable, we should be proud to support them, and not leave them when they need our support most.

Thank you too.
I agree a response is necessary so that inaccuracies do not go unchecked publicly.
I support GUBOH ... but I have left the Facebook group in protest at the relentless personal attacks on one person.

Ironically the worst of what was said about him was taken down from the Facebook page and remains here i.e. the Gollum reference
(I ask you!? What level of debate is that!?)

I realise the 'happy clappy with bucket and spade gang' would be
'taken for a long walk down a short pier' by some of the players involved

Untruths are intolerable. A 'forthright campaign' is called for
but personal attack isn't.

If people stopped that they would be doing the campaign a favour.
The opposition will get some sympathy votes if some members of GUBOH are seen to be intemperate in their language and approach.

Again I say
I support the GUBOH.
I have just left the Facebook Group because of relentless personal attacks which to my mind clouds the real issues

and again I say the personal remarks 'sap energy' from the real debate.

I know these people to be good, honest and honourable too

I applaud the way that debate on this thread became more than just talk
and became an active group which has achieved so much to date.
I just feel the group shouldn't get bogged down in personal attacks.

pixbyjohn

Cllr Stokes appeals for moderation in the wake of GUBOH meeting with Town Council

http://www.greystonesguide.ie/cllr-stokes-appeals-for-moderation-in-the-wake-of-guboh-meeting-with-town-council/

Jammyc

Perhaps it might be a suggestion for the greystones guide to have a seperate section for articles written by councillors?

F3

Pat-ience wrote: »

Thank you for your responses.
I'd agree!


I accept that.

I am referring to those who make strong and harsh 'personal comments' when I say:
better to rise above 'confrontational statements' from any quarter.
State the facts.
Make one's point.
Getting 'personal' achieves nothing.
In fact it takes away from one's case.

'Our last press release did make reference to the comments by other councillors.'

That is understandable one would have to answer inaccuracies made.
I am talking about 'personal remarks' here.

'We do not intend to get dragged down to that level of personal abuse'.

I accept that.

'What happens here or on facebook is an altogther different matter.'

What happens here is moderated.
What is happening on Facebook is that Facebook itself has been called upon to 'moderate' the 'personal abuse'.

'I feel that a few of them are pointless and would agree that they are a waste of energy. '

This is my point.

'But thats people and without them we dont have supporters or a campaign....

Thats some people. I'm sure quite a number of supporters of the campaign would not subscribe to the current level of personal attack.

If all the good folk of Greystones went the 'personal abuse' route, the cause would lose a lot of supporters and well wishers very quickly.

'I regret that some people find the debate so tedious they have to leave.'

Nowhere did I say the debate was tedious.
Recently some contributors have been very unpleasant online.
For that reason I have left the Facebook group.

'The cause is worth a bit of effort on your part.'

I agree as the wonderful photographs above remind me.
I have just left the Facebook group
where the personal attacks became too frequent and too unpleasant.

But .... and I am only throwing this out there...
I wonder
am I wrong in thinking that the nature of that FB page is changing

and that what can be a very informative page
(I'm thinking most recently on the discussion on erosion)

has just become a 'slag off a One Individual' page
and that people are getting tired of this and not 'tuning in'.

I may well be wrong about this
(and I see that there were new members recently)
but is there less traffic?



Thank you too.
I agree a response is necessary so that inaccuracies do not go unchecked publicly.
I support GUBOH ... but I have left the Facebook group in protest at the relentless personal attacks on one person.

Ironically the worst of what was said about him was taken down from the Facebook page and remains here i.e. the Gollum reference
(I ask you!? What level of debate is that!?)

I realise the 'happy clappy with bucket and spade gang' would be
'taken for a long walk down a short pier' by some of the players involved

Untruths are intolerable. A 'forthright campaign' is called for
but personal attack isn't.

If people stopped that they would be doing the campaign a favour.
The opposition will get some sympathy votes if some members of GUBOH are seen to be intemperate in their language and approach.

Again I say
I support the GUBOH.
I have just left the Facebook Group because of relentless personal attacks which to my mind clouds the real issues

and again I say the personal remarks 'sap energy' from the real debate.

I know these people to be good, honest and honourable too

I applaud the way that debate on this thread became more than just talk
and became an active group which has achieved so much to date.
I just feel the group shouldn't get bogged down in personal attacks.

GUBOH was born here 1 year ago.

F3

The Durutti Column wrote: »

I support Cheeky's suggestion. The only way to even post something on the SAVE THE HARBOUR FB page (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4311437482) is to click on Discussion and start a new one, or join the one that started yesterday (Monday 18 April).

What about a new FB page called GIVE US BACK OUR HARBOUR aimed at organising a demo? People are actively talking about a demo around the town, so this could be a focus for organising it.

OK, that's done. See here: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_148849258516045

19th April 2011 - Cheeky Chops was the proud mother of GUBOH! Fathered by Durrutii ! LOL

Pat-ience

F3 wrote: »

GUBOH was born here 1 year ago.

Happy Birthday GUBOH.

Tiradon

Jammyc wrote: »

Perhaps it might be a suggestion for the greystones guide to have a seperate section for articles written by councillors?

From what I can see, they do. There's separate sections for Council releases/harbour releases and then general news.

Jammyc

Tiradon wrote: »

From what I can see, they do. There's separate sections for Council releases/harbour releases and then general news.

Apologies, should have looked closer. Harbour updates are totally governed by the councillors though, it seems. It'd be ideal for someone not affiliated to the town council or to GUBOH to update that rather than someone with more than the average vested interest in the project.

Tiradon

Jammyc wrote: »

Apologies, should have looked closer. Harbour updates are totally governed by the councillors though, it seems. It'd be ideal for someone not affiliated to the town council or to GUBOH to update that rather than someone with more than the average vested interest in the project.

I think anyone has the ability to contribute a release, it's just that it's the Councillors who are the ones sumbitting them. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think GUBOH have had releases/comments on there before.

Cheeky Chops

F3 wrote: »

19th April 2011 - Cheeky Chops was the proud mother of GUBOH! Fathered by Durrutii ! LOL

Well I am now firmly placed on the naughty list

F3

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

Well I am now firmly placed on the naughty list

Well i supposse I am too, if you see our thread leading up to it, I was pushing for action too!:D

F3

Tiradon wrote: »

I think anyone has the ability to contribute a release, it's just that it's the Councillors who are the ones sumbitting them. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think GUBOH have had releases/comments on there before.

100% correct Tiradon, GUBOH do post press releases on GG, I think the point being made, is that each release from what ever source, is written as if if it's been drafted by an investigative journalist, in both tone and language, but it clearly has not, it's been drafted by the person wanting to make their point public. The criticism of Greystones guide as I understand it, is that it is uncontrolled and to the unwary who may not read an entire article to get to the end where the true authors name is revealed may be mislead that someone has actually researched a story and taken views from both side.

GUBOH do draft press releases that go to a committee for wording before release to Greystones Guide, the articles are firm but do not attack any 3 rd party.

Fiachra2

Not to disrupt the discussion but did anyone notice that over 1000 people viewed this thread yesterday!

F3

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Not to disrupt the discussion but did anyone notice that over 1000 people viewed this thread yesterday!

Yes Fiachra, my fingers are raw from clicking in and out 990 times!:D

pixbyjohn

F3 wrote: »

Yes Fiachra, my fingers are raw from clicking in and out 990 times!:D

you must like my photos !!!!!!;)

F3

pixbyjohn wrote: »

you must like my photos !!!!!!;)

Johnnie, did you get any really good ones of the easterly?

pixbyjohn

F3 wrote: »

Johnnie, did you get any really good ones of the easterly?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8632585@N06/
Good enough in the circumstances

The Durutti Column

Alister Ginger wrote: »

Went down about an hour ago! Wow, darcys field will be gone by tomorrow!
First decent storm since the completion of the harbour, good news is that Gollum organised beach shingle to be placed next week, first time since 2009, after tonight's storm, Sispar will be able to tip trucks of shingle into th new beach from wind gates road

Who is this Gollum, Alister?

Actually, it will be the first time since May or June 2008, according to a comment on the GUBOH FB page:

From the Minutes of the Harbour Liaison Committee meeting 15 July 2008:

"Ciaran Demery raised the issue of coastal protection works and beach nourishment. It was stated that a commitment was made to lay 30,000m3 during the construction phase. To date 10,000 m3 has been put in place. The rest will be placed during the remainder of the construction programme."

NOTE WELL: 'To date 10,000 m3 has been put in place.' So the one-third of the amount mandated by Bord Pleanala had ALREADY been placed by July 2008 — three years and ten months ago, maybe longer.

Sispar and Wicklow County Council are vandalising the shoreline by neglecting their obligations. Their own experts told the ABP Inspector that the entire 30,000 m3 would be placed DURING THE PERIOD OF CONSTRUCTION OF THE BREAKWATERS (piers) as these are what increase the erosion (not houses, offices, or club premises).

Now Sispar and WCC claim that the planning approval allows them to place the remaining 20,000 m3 at any time until construction is finished — 20 years, anyone?

This deliberate neglect ignores their own expert advice, which they told ABP they accepted. Not only are they vandals, they are liars.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=383229778363722&set=o.148849258516045&type=1&theater

Taltos

Made for interesting reading this morning over toast and chocolate eggs

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/plain-sailing-for-nama-developer-cotter-in-caribbean-as-marina-lies-in-limbo-back-home-3074302.html

Nice to see some unbiased reporting on this ongoing issue.

Work on phase two of the town's new marina, in which Park Developments is involved in the Sispar consortium with Sisk, remains at a standstill owing to a lack of available funding for its completion.

pixbyjohn

F3 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/how-nama-developer-cruised-the-caribbean-3031843.html


NAMA developer Michael Cotter spent last week sailing the high seas around the islands of the Caribbean, far from the travails of the property market shambles back at home.

Mr Cotter raced his €1m-plus 80ft yacht Whisper out of the beautiful sun-drenched island of Antigua in temperatures of a balmy 25 degrees for a four-day fixture that is one of the most prestigious events on the sailing calendar.

The Caribbean 600, a six-hundred-mile offshore race around 11 islands of the Caribbean, is run by Antigua's Royal Ocean Racing Club.

One of the Celtic Tiger's biggest construction companies, Mr Cotter's Park Developments was one of the first to sell €1m-plus homes in Dublin in the early days of the property boom. Park was also reported to be one of the bidders for the Jury's Doyle site that was eventually bought for €400m by Sean Dunne.

On Friday night, champagne corks popped and the celebrations were lively at the prizegiving ceremony at the packed Antigua Yacht Club, a location legendary for its post-race parties and super wealthy yacht owners.

Last month Whisper won the more informal Antigua Yacht Club's Round The Island Race and Mr Cotter's yacht is signed up for three more races in Antigua in coming months.

Mr Cotter also sails out of Dun Laoghaire and Villefranche on the French Cote D'Azur, where he and construction empire chief John Sisk are developing an exclusive yacht club. Mr Cotter's 80ft Reichel Pugh cruiser racer is worth €1m-€2m, according to the boat's San Diego designers.

Mr Cotter has raced Whisper on Mediterranean, Irish and British waters for the past six years. This year saw the yacht's Caribbean debut.

Park Developments is one half of a consortium partnered with the local council on a massive unfinished €300m marina development at Greystones Harbour, Co Wicklow.

Sispar, a partnership between Park Developments and construction giant Sisk, had its loans transferred to Nama in 2010. Phase two of the development is incomplete, to much dissatisfaction.

Sispar has applied to Nama for funding to progress the development and Nama has responded with a request for further details from the consortium and will make a decision on whether the project will proceed in March.

"It is essential that certainty is brought to the future of this project as quickly as possible," said Fine Gael TD Simon Harris. "My absolute concern for this development is that all the public facilities which were pledged to the people of Greystones are delivered upon."

It is believed that loans associated with the Greystones Harbour development are being serviced in full and on time.

Mr Cotter did not respond to requests for comment.

- Roisin Burke

This was posted in February, nothing new really !!!

The Durutti Column

pixbyjohn wrote: »

This was posted in February, nothing new really !!!

It's something new to see that we taxpayers are, in effect, forking out for the underfloor heating for his vintage car collection, while his company leaves us stuck with an enormous mess exactly where it most affects the community's amenities and deters visitors and tourists. Jesus!

pixbyjohn

When I said "nothing new really" I meant thats the way company law is structured. A similar type of thing has gone on for years. Companies can go bang on a Friday and reopen again Monday under a different name leaving lots of debtors. Maybe the law needs to be changed radically but that would probably run every investor out of our little country. Hard to find a balance.

The Bishop Basher

It certainly gets abused. Car dealers in areas close to the M50 are notorious for it. No point stressing about it though cause it won't change.

Planting a bit of grass down by the North Beach, now that's possible :-)