News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

Fiachra2

A number of locally based commercial fishermen have been lobbying to be allowed use the harbour. They currently are based in Dun Laoghaire and "commute" each day to fish.


http://www.greystonesguide.ie/hayden-to-seek-solution-for-local-fishermen/


Cllr Ciarán Hayden has said that he will use all the influence he can to sort out the issue of accommodating local fishermen at Greystones Harbour. Two local boats are in desperate need of being facilitated since the closure of the Harbour in February 2008. Cllr Hayden has already had one meeting with Sispar on this issue and hopes to follow that initial contact with a more constructive meeting next week.

Cllr Hayden said, “I have spoken with both local operators in recent weeks and I am very confident a solution can be found to deal with their concerns. As an interim measure I have asked Sispar to look at making part of the outer marina pier available for these boats. I don’t think it will cost too much to facilitate them and it should be done sooner rather than later. It is worth noting that these men now have a voice at the Harbour Liaison meetings and they have my full support.”

Another matter the local Fianna Fail man wants sorted is the provision of the eight Fishermen’s Huts adjacent to the club pens. Cllr Hayden commented “the provision of fishermen’s huts was part of the wider plan and as they are not a complicated design or an expensive build I think we should look at their provision in the short term. This would be a very good gesture to a group that will use the harbour in a functional way”.

legrand

Fiachra2 wrote: »

A number of locally based commercial fishermen have been lobbying to be allowed use the harbour. They currently are based in Dun Laoghaire and "commute" each day to fish.


http://www.greystonesguide.ie/hayden-to-seek-solution-for-local-fishermen/


Cllr Ciarán Hayden has said that he will use all the influence he can to sort out the issue of accommodating local fishermen at Greystones Harbour. Two local boats are in desperate need of being facilitated since the closure of the Harbour in February 2008. Cllr Hayden has already had one meeting with Sispar on this issue and hopes to follow that initial contact with a more constructive meeting next week.

Cllr Hayden said, “I have spoken with both local operators in recent weeks and I am very confident a solution can be found to deal with their concerns. As an interim measure I have asked Sispar to look at making part of the outer marina pier available for these boats. I don’t think it will cost too much to facilitate them and it should be done sooner rather than later. It is worth noting that these men now have a voice at the Harbour Liaison meetings and they have my full support.”

Another matter the local Fianna Fail man wants sorted is the provision of the eight Fishermen’s Huts adjacent to the club pens. Cllr Hayden commented “the provision of fishermen’s huts was part of the wider plan and as they are not a complicated design or an expensive build I think we should look at their provision in the short term. This would be a very good gesture to a group that will use the harbour in a functional way”.

An assortment of Kelly Sheds. Lovely.

Will go nicely with the umpteen sign posts/road markings/loose gravel/tarmac/concrete/cobble lock/etc etc

So much for the attractive public space. What a freaking mess...

LifeBeginsAt40

Have just come back from an 8 day holiday to the UK, so how is the grass seeding going? Should be some early shoots by now?...No?...Hmmm

pixbyjohn

Cheeky Chops & darter, I can see your frustration at whats happening.
It is really time that GUBOH gathered its troops and called a public meeting, elect a committee and IF there is enough interest in the community to support GUBOH then more urgent action can be exercised. At the moment there is a view by the elected representatives and Wicklow County Council plus Sispar that GUBOH is a small minority of disgruntled residents who are against everything that is the harbour development.
Well now it is time that GUBOH changed that view by rallying the community behind them in a public meeting. Individual views on Boards.ie will change nothing.

Maudi

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Cheeky Chops & darter, I can see your frustration at whats happening.
It is really time that GUBOH gathered its troops and called a public meeting, elect a committee and IF there is enough interest in the community to support GUBOH then more urgent action can be exercised. At the moment there is a view by the elected representatives and Wicklow County Council plus Sispar that GUBOH is a small minority of disgruntled residents who are against everything that is the harbour development.
Well now it is time that GUBOH changed that view by rallying the community behind them in a public meeting. Individual views on Boards.ie will change nothing.

im just back from a walk down the north beach.wow! i dont know if one can actually blame anybody for the HUGE amount of erosion...but its certainly a big problem..somebody has lost a few sections of security fencing/netting and its defo happening at a faster rate than ive seen (im walking the beach since the 80s) bits were falling down while i walked tonight twas eerie.

recedite

It looks to me that about 3 or 4 metres of the cliff has gone in the last year.
Its the section north of the new fenced-in path down to the shingle beach.
Am I right in thinking this section (formerly Darcy's Field) was to be a public park in the original plans? The original security fence along the cliff was made of steel poles stuck in concrete filled tyres, with plastic netting attached. Its all in the sea now. The next line of defence in, is a new one made of green steel mesh, and at this rate it too will be in the sea by next year.

The other section (the reclaimed land) south of the path is well protected by the marina wall and the rock armour. Presumably this is the future building land reserved for Sispar.

Fiachra2

pixbyjohn wrote: »

. At the moment there is a view by the elected representatives and Wicklow County Council plus Sispar that GUBOH is a small minority of disgruntled residents who are against everything that is the harbour development.
.

That is no longer the case John. Indeed I doubt if it ever was. One particularly vocal public representative articulates that view repeatedly but it is not shared by others.
At a recent town council meeting a vote was passed by a majority of 2:1 in favour of sending a set of requests from GUBOH to Sispar. In effect the Town Council, despite the vigourous opposition of a few, voted to endorse GUBOH's position.
Since then, GUBOH has held meetings with a number of County Councillors and TD's all of whom have agreed to press the Council management to insist that Sispar undertake GUBOH's requests.

I dont think most public representatives ever had any problem with GUBOH Even our very vocal opponent did not always have such an adversarial position.
http://www.greystonesguide.ie/mayor-has-very-positive-meeting-with-give-us-back-our-harbour-group/

I also imagine that they are well aware of the feelings of people in the town and the fact that GUBOH is simply articulating those feelings.
Politicians by nature will always adopt a conservative, wait-and-see approach. In this instance I think they have waited and seen...nothing. Therefore they are now prepared to act. The purpose of GUBOH's campaign was to heighten awareness of the issue and pursuade politicians to do something about it. I believe we have achieved that point.
Our job is far from over. For obvious commercial reasons Sispar will not want to do what they will asked. The reluctance of Council officials to act on behalf of the community will be a problem. There will be contractual problems. Proposals will get watered down in the political process and will need to be revisted. Things will slow down and some prodding may be needed. We have however moved a long way in a year.

Jimjay

Fiachra2 wrote: »

That is no longer the case John. Indeed I doubt if it ever was. One particularly vocal public representative articulates that view repeatedly but it is not shared by others.
At a recent town council meeting a vote was passed by a majority of 2:1 in favour of sending a set of requests from GUBOH to Sispar. In effect the Town Council, despite the vigourous opposition of a few, voted to endorse GUBOH's position.
Since then, GUBOH has held meetings with a number of County Councillors and TD's all of whom have agreed to press the Council management to insist that Sispar undertake GUBOH's requests.

I dont think most public representatives ever had any problem with GUBOH Even our very vocal opponent did not always have such an adversarial position.
http://www.greystonesguide.ie/mayor-has-very-positive-meeting-with-give-us-back-our-harbour-group/

I also imagine that they are well aware of the feelings of people in the town and the fact that GUBOH is simply articulating those feelings.
Politicians by nature will always adopt a conservative, wait-and-see approach. In this instance I think they have waited and seen...nothing. Therefore they are now prepared to act. The purpose of GUBOH's campaign was to heighten awareness of the issue and pursuade politicians to do something about it. I believe we have achieved that point.
Our job is far from over. For obvious commercial reasons Sispar will not want to do what they will asked. The reluctance of Council officials to act on behalf of the community will be a problem. There will be contractual problems. Proposals will get watered down in the political process and will need to be revisted. Things will slow down and some prodding may be needed. We have however moved a long way in a year.

How is guboh articulating public opinion? As far as i know they have never held a public meeting to discuss public opinion. Until guboh get together with the public it is a small group that is only articulating the opinion of the small number of vocal people, from what it appears to us outsiders about 3-4 people, within that group.

If guboh are not willing to open up it will always appear to some people that guboh is a cover for those 3-4 people to articulate THEIR opinion.

dudmis

I'm not sure if this has been raised before but has anyone thought about the value of making a complaint with the Ombudsman?

The role of the Ombudsman is to examine the administrative actions of a government body (incl. LCCs). So while it couldn't investigate anything that SISPAr has done/failed to do, it could review WCCs role in the development.

From the website: What complaints can I make to the Ombudsman?
You can complain to us about a public body, if it:

delays providing services,
refuses to award a benefit or service,
fails to provide a promised service,
fails to follow approved procedures,
causes communication difficulties,
makes unfair decisions,
gives misleading advice,
is rude, or
fails to correct mistakes.

Under the Ombudsman Act we examine all issues involving ‘maladministration’, which includes any action that:

is taken without proper authority,
is taken on irrelevant grounds,
results from negligence or carelessness,
is based on incorrect or incomplete information,
discriminates improperly,
is based on administrative practice that is not acceptable, or
goes against fair or sound administration.

In undertaking its investigation, the Ombudsman would certainly get WCC to answer questions that they have failed to provide so far and may bring in a certain level of accountability that seems to have been missing to date.

Fiachra2

Jimjay wrote: »

How is guboh articulating public opinion? As far as i know they have never held a public meeting to discuss public opinion. Until guboh get together with the public it is a small group that is only articulating the opinion of the small number of vocal people, from what it appears to us outsiders about 3-4 people, within that group.

If guboh are not willing to open up it will always appear to some people that guboh is a cover for those 3-4 people to articulate THEIR opinion.

Ok I accept that you feel that the public has a different opinion to that of GUBOH. What do you think that is?

Jimjay

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Ok I accept that you feel that the public has a different opinion to that of GUBOH. What do you think that is?

I could not possibly say as i have never held a publIc meeting to find out. I would guess that no one is happy as it is but apart from friends who i speak to i wouldnt know what ideas other people have.


At the end of the day maybe everyboy in grystones has the same plan B. what i am getting at is that unless guboh or another group actually involve the community on a regalur basis (and as John says, vote a committee) then Guboh is just a small group of people expressing their own views and not that of the wider community.

danjo

Jimjay wrote: »

At the end of the day maybe everyboy in grystones has the same plan B. what i am getting at is that unless guboh or another group actually involve the community on a regalur basis (and as John says, vote a committee) then Guboh is just a small group of people expressing their own views and not that of the wider community.

I my opinion GUBOH are on the cusp of further achievements. They are performing a stellar task. They now have the majority of local councilors to agree to call a joint meeting with Sispar to discuss the outstanding issues.
I see no reason for any other meeting in advance of this. Voting a new committee at this stage would only be diversionary. The current one is doing just fine!
I am not a member of GUBOH but as a resident of Greystones I am informed by the regular posts here by members and I do feel involved.
If as you say "everyboy in grystones has the same plan B" you infer that everybody including yourself are supportive of GUBOH objectives then I fail to see why any change is necessary at this stage.

F3

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Cheeky Chops & darter, I can see your frustration at whats happening.
It is really time that GUBOH gathered its troops and called a public meeting, elect a committee and IF there is enough interest in the community to support GUBOH then more urgent action can be exercised. At the moment there is a view by the elected representatives and Wicklow County Council plus Sispar that GUBOH is a small minority of disgruntled residents who are against everything that is the harbour development.
Well now it is time that GUBOH changed that view by rallying the community behind them in a public meeting. Individual views on Boards.ie will change nothing.

Dear John,

I understand your views, and agree that a GUBOH public meeting might be appropriate at some point soon, but feel I must correct your facts. The view about GUBOH being a small minority of disgruntled residents has been taken essentially by only one Town Councilor, not Wicklow County Councilors and not Government Ministers.(and thus not all elected public representatives as your blog portrays) GUBOH has now raised their reasonable requests (that have been well publicised over the last 12 months) to Wicklow County Councilor level and to TD level. GUBOH is a Facebook group of concerned members of the community, their support has been constant and communications consistent. GUBOH do not need to sing from the tree tops to gain credibility, GUBOH have provided and publicised a list of reasonable requests, nothing more and nothing less. GUBOH are not politicians GUBOH are not looking for your vote. If you agree with what GUBOH want then that's fantastic, if you want something more or less, then write to whomever you feel needs to hear your views and to make the changes you require to what's going on. The leading voices in GUBOH are well informed ordinary people, who have taken their own time to put their views and the views of their members across to those that have the power to implement change. They are not looking to sell an idea or manifesto to gain support. As a GUBOH member, you can always put your point across about what you want and it will be discussed debated and put forward as a GUBOH requirement if agreed and consented to be reasonable. You can do this publically, or privately and most of our members choose to contact the leaders privately. If any of you wish to speak with the leaders of GUBOH let me know and I could arrange a meeting for you to discuss you views and questions. PM me in this regard. Please don't feel that GUBOH are elected public reps as they are not. GUBOH is a group of people of 800 Facebook members and over 2,500 signatories that have strong views based upon common sense and fairness to all in the community. GUBOH are not against the development, and never have been. GUBOH's only demand is that whilst the market is waiting to recover, Sispar need to implant whatever actions are necessary to make Greytones a destination town once more, and give a proper amenity back to the people of Greystones. I hope this goes some of the way to explaining what GUBOH is. GUBOH have made great progress over the past 12 months and have a achieved significant milestone recently with the support of the key public representatives in Wicklow.

F3

danjo wrote: »

I my opinion GUBOH are on the cusp of further achievements. They are performing a stellar task. They now have the majority of local councilors to agree to call a joint meeting with Sispar to discuss the outstanding issues.
I see no reason for any other meeting in advance of this. Voting a new committee at this stage would only be diversionary. The current one is doing just fine!
I am not a member of GUBOH but as a resident of Greystones I am informed by the regular posts here by members and I do feel involved.
If as you say "everyboy in grystones has the same plan B" you infer that everybody including yourself are supportive of GUBOH objectives then I fail to see why any change is necessary at this stage.

Wise words, Danjo you are so correct.

The Durutti Column

F3 wrote: »

Originally Posted by danjo
I my opinion GUBOH are on the cusp of further achievements. They are performing a stellar task. They now have the majority of local councilors to agree to call a joint meeting with Sispar to discuss the outstanding issues.

The Town Council meeting for April is tomorrow, 24 April @ 7.30pm. Does anyone know if Sispar deigned to reply to the Council's letter? Will they show up? Is GUBOH planning to have a presence there?

I notice one ominous sign.

On Greystones Guide, there are photos of the very welcome opening of the Rowing Club boat pen and handing over of keys by Paraic Keogh of Sispar. (http://www.greystonesguide.ie/rowing-club-gets-great-facilities).

But the only councillors in the photos are, guess who, Derek Mitchell, Ciarán Hayden and Kathleen Kelleher — the Three Amigos. My question is, Did Sispar invite the Mayor of Greystones, Tom Fortune? Did they invite any other councillors, such as Grainne McLoughlin, George Jones, Stephen Stokes, or Chris Maloney?

And if not, why not?

Is this an indication that Sispar will tell the Town Council to take a hike? Do they plan to communicate only through the Three Amigos?

F3

The link below leads you to the Comptroller and Auditor General Annual Report Accounts of the Public Services 2008, in which you will find the following report [extract]:-

Greystones Harbour Development (DBOF) — Wicklow County Council agreed contract terms in December 2007 with Sispar Consortium on a PPP project involving development of 341 residential units, around 5,600 square metres commercial space and the operation of a 230 berth marina with a 30-year concession period. In addition, public infrastructure will be provided including a new harbour, a public square, community club facilities, coastal protection and beach management works. The contract includes a revenue-sharing arrangement between Sispar and the Council. This is composed of fixed and variable elements. Under the agreement, the Council received €3 million in 2008 as part of the fixed element. A further amount will become payable on completion of the project.

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/annualreports/2008/Appropriation_Account_2008Rev1.pdf

F3

The Greystones DBFO Harbour Development contract was signed in 2007.

In the Comptroller and Auditor General report 2008 the 30 year concession period ["Service Commences" was reported to be 2012] with "Contract Complete" in 2012. [sic]

In the Comptroller and Auditor General report 2009 the 30 year concession period ["Service Commences" was reported to be 2012] with "Contract Complete in 2042.

In the Comptroller and Auditor General report 2010 the 30 year concession period ["Service Commences" was reported to be [B][SIZE="7"]2017[/SIZE][/B]] with "Contract Complete in 2047.

This 2010 report was published in September 2011. <snip>... <snip> Sean Quirke has already granted a 5 year extension of time to Sispar's construction period. WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN REPORTED TO THE PEOPLE OF GREYSTONES!!!! A vitally important piece of information. Disgraceful.

legrand

F3

Not sure I understand fully - 2012 was the project completion right (harbour, residential etc with on going maintenance for years). So this 2017 date - so in effect the instead of being this year any obligations have been pushed out for 5 more years and Quirke has signed a contract to that effect ?

F3

Wicklow County Council are major shareholders and beneficiaries in the harbour development. They have had a €3,000,000.00 upfront payment from Sispar, and they have a back end 2nd lump sum. They also have a massive share of the profits on the sale of the private residential units.

If Wicklow are a partisan, then who is independent? who is looking after the Tax Payer? Who is looking after Greystones? Sean Quirke who is Project Manager is not as a matter of commercial fact, independent. He has given Sispar another 5 years on top of the 5 years since 2007. That means that Sean Quirke has unilaterally decided that the businesses and people of Greystones will endure a building site for 10 years.

This fact was not made public until the CAG Report was published in 2011.

The Question is which Public representatives knew this? and why did they not divulge this to the people of Greystones?

The lack of transparency surrounding this contract is disgusting.

F3

legrand wrote: »

F3

Not sure I understand fully - 2012 was the project completion right (harbour, residential etc with on going maintenance for years). So this 2017 date - so in effect the instead of being this year any obligations have been pushed out for 5 more years and Quirke has signed a contract to that effect ?

Hi legrand,

What this means, is that the construction should have been complete by the time the concession commences, which was to be this year [2012] add 30 year concession [running the harbour and marina] = 2042

The CAG reported in 2010 figures [published in September 2011] that concession commences 2017. that is a 5 year extension of time granted by WCC to Sispar.

Just to clarify, Sean Quirke would not need to sign another contract to allow an additional 5 years, he would have the power to grant this "extension of time" under the existing contract, but let me tell you, he has NO RIGHT TO DO SO! What pisses me off, is that we are never told the truth! Sean Quirke is a disgrace for not reporting this to our local public representatives!!! who in turn should report this to the people.

pixbyjohn

Dustin and children at the harbour 1/7/2011 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

dudmis

F3 wrote: »

The CAG reported in 2010 figures [published in September 2011] that concession commences 2017. that is a 5 year extension of time granted by WCC to Sispar.

Just to clarify, Sean Quirke would not need to sign another contract to allow an additional 5 years, he would have the power to grant this "extension of time" under the existing contract,

No offense, but I really hope you are wrong about this.

If this is correct, it brings into question the very basis of local democracy within the county and would demonstrate complete disregard for the local community.

There is a town council meeting tomorrow night - is there any way of asking whether WCC has, in fact, extended the contract period?

F3

dudmis wrote: »

No offense, but I really hope you are wrong about this.

If this is correct, it brings into question the very basis of local democracy within the county and would demonstrate complete disregard for the local community.

There is a town council meeting tomorrow night - is there any way of asking whether WCC has, in fact, extended the contract period?

http://audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/annualreports/2010/2010_Volume_1_EN(1.01).pdf


pdf. page 79 of 238

dudmis

Thanks - I was just hoping that I was reading it incorrectly or something but it doesn't look likely.

F3

http://audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/annualreports/2009/ReportVol1_09_rev4.pdf

Here's 2009 to compare, pdf page 56 of 251

dudmis

Surely, WCC would have to consult publicly to do anything like this? Even if it was an ad in the local paper? Would the councillors (TC/WCC) not have to be informed??? The Harbour Liaison Committee?

dudmis

I'm not sure how the Town Council works but is there an opportunity to get this clarified tomorrow night?

F3

dudmis wrote: »

Surely, WCC would have to consult publicly to do anything like this? Even if it was an ad in the local paper? Would the councillors (TC/WCC) not have to be informed??? The Harbour Liaison Committee?

Seems not. This is total contempt for Greystones. Not a dicky bird was said at the Harbour Liason Committee, in fact I read when GUBOH asked WCC directly as to how long the people and businesses of Greystones would have to endure and unfinished development, WCC asked the GUBOH representative to withdraw the question or leave the meeting. I understand that two TC's supported WCC and said the question was "despicable". I understand that so to did a representative of one of the Housing estates [puzzellingly] When I read the CAG reports I was astonished !!!

F3

dudmis wrote: »

I'm not sure how the Town Council works but is there an opportunity to get this clarified tomorrow night?

They all read this thread, [Hi all TC's !!!] now do you think GUBOH are Mad?
I suggest one of you raise this tomorrow night, because by the weekend it will be all over the press.

dudmis

F3, thanks for unearthing this info.

If we are to take the glass is half full approach, if an official 5 yr timeframe has now been imposed upon us, there is now no excuse for SISPAR not to make the harbour amenable to the community - esp. seeing as they got a free 'get out of jail' card. Up to now, the main problem, as I have seen it, is that work was always just around the corner, so there was no point in spending any money landscaping etc. That reason is no longer valid.

And being completely optimistic (and prob. naive) about it - perhaps some level of transparency/accountability will now be forced into the process.

(yes, I have been drinking )