Cheating in golf

PhilipMarlowe

I wouldn't indicate a potential club to someone... pointing out the line of play is not considered advice and you can get this info from anyone. Distance information is not considered advice either.
Definition of advice in the rules:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

You could point out what distance it is to reach or carry a bunker and let them make their own mind as to what club/shot to hit.

Blunder

ridonkulous wrote: »

Out of interest has anybody on here ever played in an open competition in their local club with non members and advised them on where to aim or to hit a 3 wood off the tee to ensure the wouldn't reach a bunker/hazard of some sort?

I have done this on many occassions including team events (mainly schools) whereby I would inform a player on where he would want to avoid and indicated (innocently) a potential club to use. Would people consider this cheating?

As far as I know it isnt an offence to give someone a line upon which to hit their shot especially if it was a blind shot form the tee or something.

I cant understand though why you'd be telling someone to hit a 3 wood over a driver or whatever. It'd make more sense to say that the water is 250 down there or that its 250 to carry the water and let them make up their mind after that. I dont think you are cheating intentionally in this senario. You are though breaking the rules.

ridonkulous

Licksy wrote: »

I wouldn't indicate a potential club to someone... pointing out the line of play is not considered advice and you can get this info from anyone. Distance information is not considered advice either.
Definition of advice in the rules:

You could point out what distance it is to reach or carry a bunker and let them make their own mind as to what club/shot to hit.

Thanks for the swift reply. I was hoping for a few responses on peoples opinions before somebody posted the R&A definition of advice. Oh well.

ridonkulous

Blunder wrote: »

As far as I know it isnt an offence to give someone a line upon which to hit their shot especially if it was a blind shot form the tee or something.

I cant understand though why you'd be telling someone to hit a 3 wood over a driver or whatever. It'd make more sense to say that the water is 250 down there or that its 250 to carry the water and let them make up their mind after that. I dont think you are cheating intentionally in this senario. You are though breaking the rules.

When I said I might indicate a club I meant more something along the lines of what you said where I would go "its 220 to the pin so a 7 iron should do it"... . Or I might indicate that I normally hit club X off this tee.

Daithio9

ridonkulous wrote: »

I imagine they do but I wouldn't know about it.

Ah that's a shame, I was full sure you could confirm that for me.

PhilipMarlowe

Thanks for the sarcasm....
European Tour Caddies Association
c/o PGA European Tour
Wentworth Drive
Virginia Water
Surrey GU25 4LX
England

ridonkulous

Licksy wrote: »

Thanks for the sarcasm....
European Tour Caddies Association
c/o PGA European Tour
Wentworth Drive
Virginia Water
Surrey GU25 4LX
England

Very funny. But I have a job. Thanks anyway.

Do you see something wrong with trying to be helpful to someone who may have never played the course before? I don't and I don't mind if the ask me for any amount of information either.

ridonkulous

Daithio9 wrote: »

Ah that's a shame, I was full sure you could confirm that for me.

Your off topic comments are becoming annoying now.

PhilipMarlowe

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with being helpful so long as you phrase it in the right way... telling them that the hole bends to the left and there is a bunker over the crest at 260 yards is fine... just let them make up their mind what club to hit.

ShriekingSheet

ridonkulous wrote: »

Your off topic comments are becoming annoying now.

Agreed.

Anyway, Ridonkulous, the point is, while you may not be out to cheat, and it's mostly out of friendly intention you'd offer advice or whatever, you are breaking the rules. Once you break the rules, it's not a level playing field and the good can be taken out of a competitive game.

Absolutely no one here will disagree with you giving all the advice you like, and breaking any rule you wish in a friendly, casual round. But in competition, it needs to be kept to the rules or the game becomes a farce.

ridonkulous

Licksy wrote: »

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with being helpful so long as you phrase it in the right way... telling them that the hole bends to the left and there is a bunker over the crest at 260 yards is fine... just let them make up their mind what club to hit.

Generally I never give advice to someone else on club selection. My earlier point was just a hypothetical scenario that I thought could bring out some interesting opinions. I would like to point out that although some of my posts in this thread may seem otherwise I am not one of those guys you play with who thinks he knows whats best for your game.

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

...you are breaking the rules. Once you break the rules, it's not a level playing field and the good can be taken out of a competitive game.

...in competition, it needs to be kept to the rules or the game becomes a farce.

Good post and points well taken. Looking at all the negative responses I may have to change my view on that particular rule.

SuprSi

One Cold Hand wrote: »

I don't understand how someone would want to play off a higher handicap than they're capable of.

I'd imagine it's because they want to win prizes. I play golf because I want to get as low a handicap as possible. If I happen to win a prize along the way, great, but if I shoot level par or something like that and don't finish among the prize winners, I'm still as happy as I've managed to cut my handicap and play a very good round.

Unfortunately a lot of people play club competitions because they are solely interested in winning the prizes, and to do this they need to keep their handicap high to ensure they are in with a shout when the big competitions come along.

Daithio9

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Agreed.

Next time it may be best for you to read the full thread before commenting.

Daithio9

ridonkulous wrote: »

Good post and points well taken. Looking at all the negative responses I may have to change my view on that particular rule.

Glad to see it's finally starting to sink in.

fullstop

Daithio9 wrote: »

Next time it may be best for you to read the full thread before commenting.

Daithio9 wrote: »

Glad to see it's finally starting to sink in.

Next time it may be best for you to stop having constant petty digs and debate the point properly.

Daithio9

fullstop wrote: »

Next time it may be best for you to stop having constant petty digs and debate the point properly.

What debate?
It's a rule of golf, it's not up for debate. It's written in black and white in the rules of golf and there are numerous scenarios covered in "decisions on the rules of golf" if some people even bothered to have a look.
So if you still think it's petty to call a person (who openly admits to diregarding the rules while at the same time claims to have a greater understanding of the rules than most people), a cheat, well then I'm the most petty person you'll ever meet.

ShriekingSheet

Daithio9 wrote: »

What debate?
It's a rule of golf, it's not up for debate. It's written in black and white in the rules of golf and there are numerous scenarios covered in "decisions on the rules of golf" if some people even bothered to have a look.
So if you still think it's petty to call a person (who openly admits to diregarding the rules while at the same time claims to have a greater understanding of the rules than most people), a cheat, well then I'm the most petty person you'll ever meet.

The debate was whether or not there are grey areas of rules which were disregardable without cheating per se. A pretty valid debate given the amount of bending and breaking of rules in other massively popular sports; diving in football, off the ball antics in GAA, god only knows what goes on under rucks in rugby. If you think golf is different, a gentleman's game above where such behaviour doesn't go on you're sadly wrong.

Your lofty "black and white" talk is hot air in many respects, given that I've just shown you on the previous page, three ways in which you can give a playing partner an unfair advantage without breaking the rules.
You can just as easily hinder someone's progress, well within the rules, as many people think it's okay to do in match play.

The point is, you can't hold up a rule book and say 'hear ye, all shall comply and all shall be fair'. There's "white" ways of doing "black" deeds. It's up to the person to conduct themselves fairly or unfairly.

So there you have something to mull over and discuss with the rest of us, rather than just having a go at someone.

Fulton Crown

fullstop wrote: »

Next time it may be best for you to stop having constant petty digs and debate the point properly.

Started on the back nine obviously !

Me ? I think most offenders are ignorant of the rules rather than deliberate cheaters.

Most people realise that if they are caught cheating their golf career is finished.

Would agree that some people make little effort to become familiar with the rules - recently had the experience of a chap who lost his ball off the tee....went back and played another one......original was found while he was doing this....he was delighted....thought he could play it and disregard the second ball !

wasn't trying to cheat...just did not know the rules...

Sandwich

What about players in Stableford comps who having lost a ball or ruined their chances of scoring, throw down another ball and say they will just play the hole for practice? You cant practice during play except for chipping/putting around a green you have just finished....
Some probably dont know - but some do and do it anyway. Cheats wanting to try to sort their swing before they have to hit an other scoring shot? I guess so.

SoupyNorman

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Most people realise that if they are caught cheating their golf career is finished.

I must agree with this, even if their golf career consists of just society outings and casual golf, people will not play with a known or suspected cheater. I've played with a couple of these guys who you just cant trust and it was not just me that had unsavory experiences with them and that kind of news travels very fast. So I think that cheaters are masters of their own destruction in the long term.

The_Kew_Tour

I remember in my club back home there was this general feeling that the only people who would ever cheat are the younger members, students etc.

Got that quiet a bit when I was student in club I played. I remember one time I got 42 points when I was 17 in stableford competition. It so happened that during that weekend the top three prizes were all going to lads I knew about same age 17-18 we were all in seperate groups but it did not go down too well with some of the more established members shall we say in the club.

I remember the next week of competition a rule came in where students could only play with non student players in the future. Funny thing was non of us were playing with any students when we did play in that competition but think it was done in manner to say that there was something dodgy going on.

Funny thing was the two guys I played with were in there 30's very good players of 4 and 6 handicap at time and even once finished we went through my card twice over going through it hole by hole to make sure that I had correct score. I had no problem with that what so ever but once cards were signed and in the bar (dont worry was only coke and bag crisps i had:p) the guys I were playing with said they were sorry for looking as if they did not trust me but they got that type hassle themsleves when they were young.

I know i can hold my head high as I have never cheated in competition but I felt that there were people in club at time who give me dirty look because they taught otherwise.

I still think its there to extent still although much has changed in past 10 years or so

GreeBo

ridonkulous wrote: »

I have done this on many occassions including team events (mainly schools) whereby I would inform a player on where he would want to avoid and indicated (innocently) a potential club to use. Would people consider this cheating?

If its a team event then its not cheating as you are allowed confer between teams/partners/caddy.

Obni

For the ultimate guide to keeping on the right side of the law I would recommend the following book written in the spirit of Stephen Potter's Lifemanship & Oneupmanship books - How Win Golf Without Actually Playing Well
My favourite is the tactic of standing on the first tee and mentioning in passing how you've suffered badly during the last year with both the yips and the shanks, almost to the point of giving up, but thankfully you've recovered your game. An 'innocent' remark, no rules broken, but now the words 'yips' and 'shank' are out there, floating around, waiting to work their magic.

ShriekingSheet

Obni wrote: »

For the ultimate guide to keeping on the right side of the law I would recommend the following book written in the spirit of Stephen Potter's Lifemanship & Oneupmanship books - How Win Golf Without Actually Playing Well
My favourite is the tactic of standing on the first tee and mentioning in passing how you've suffered badly during the last year with both the yips and the shanks, almost to the point of giving up, but thankfully you've recovered your game. An 'innocent' remark, no rules broken, but now the words 'yips' and 'shank' are out there, floating around, waiting to work their magic.

We're going to come to blows again, I can tell

Anto12

Just a quick question - I'm new to this . I play most weekends with a good mate of mine - The question I have is when on the putting green he sometimes changes his ball - to a newer cleaner one - Is this allowed - Never bothered me really as we just both enjoy the game.. Havent really met too many lads that cheated although the I've met one lad who twice in a round drove his ball into some seriously heavy rough & found it with ease ... Both my playing partner and I just thought this lad was having a laugh .. ah well ..

Shannonsider

I've been reading up on the rules (in light of my ignorance) and the rules say you must use a ball for an entire hole.... unless its obviously lost. Up until having read the rules I'd have said so what? But apparently this is a major no no.

scout353

Anto12 wrote: »

Just a quick question - I'm new to this . I play most weekends with a good mate of mine - The question I have is when on the putting green he sometimes changes his ball - to a newer cleaner one - Is this allowed - Never bothered me really as we just both enjoy the game.. Havent really met too many lads that cheated although the I've met one lad who twice in a round drove his ball into some seriously heavy rough & found it with ease ... Both my playing partner and I just thought this lad was having a laugh .. ah well ..

He is breaking the rules!

The only situation where he would be allowed to change his ball would be if it was damaged during the playing of the hole.

Anto12

Cheers men, I kinda guessed that but wasnt too sure - I only remember seeing something like that on sky sports when a players ball had been damaged & his playing partners agreed that he could change the ball - Will inform him of this ..

Mr check raise

Obni wrote: »

For the ultimate guide to keeping on the right side of the law I would recommend the following book written in the spirit of Stephen Potter's Lifemanship & Oneupmanship books - How Win Golf Without Actually Playing Well
My favourite is the tactic of standing on the first tee and mentioning in passing how you've suffered badly during the last year with both the yips and the shanks, almost to the point of giving up, but thankfully you've recovered your game. An 'innocent' remark, no rules broken, but now the words 'yips' and 'shank' are out there, floating around, waiting to work their magic.

it didnt exactly work against me in druis heath! although i do remember you goin on about the yips!

Daithio9

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The debate was whether or not there are grey areas of rules which were disregardable without cheating per se. A pretty valid debate given the amount of bending and breaking of rules in other massively popular sports; diving in football, off the ball antics in GAA, god only knows what goes on under rucks in rugby. If you think golf is different, a gentleman's game above where such behaviour doesn't go on you're sadly wrong.

Your lofty "black and white" talk is hot air in many respects, given that I've just shown you on the previous page, three ways in which you can give a playing partner an unfair advantage without breaking the rules.
You can just as easily hinder someone's progress, well within the rules, as many people think it's okay to do in match play.

The point is, you can't hold up a rule book and say 'hear ye, all shall comply and all shall be fair'. There's "white" ways of doing "black" deeds. It's up to the person to conduct themselves fairly or unfairly.

So there you have something to mull over and discuss with the rest of us, rather than just having a go at someone.

Firstly sheet it seems strange to me that you joined the discussion quite late and decided to take the side of some one who admitted to cheating. Now fair enough he seems to realise the error of his ways, although I wonder what he is going to do about the cards he handed in whilst breaking the rules.

It's also rather unfortunate of you to draw comparisons between golf and other sports, because golf is uniquely different to all those other sports you mentioned, in so far as it's a self policing sport i.e you are almost always your own referee (quite frankly I'm surprised that you don'y already know that as you seem to be a well respected and long time poster). In GAA, soccer and rugby the culture promotes bending the rules to gain any advantage, in fact for the most part it's expected and drilled into you from a very young age that you do everything you can within and outside the rules to win, therefore the culture is win at any cost. I think where you're getting this notion that golf is the same is because in recent years there has been a big influx of players from that sporting culture into golf and to be honest imo it's now widespread in golf when in truth it has no place whatsoever.
For those who have never read the rules of golf (or ever will), the following is from the first section on etiquette,


The Spirit of the Game

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee

or umpire.The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show

consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All playersshould conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstratingcourtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of howcompetitive they may be.This is the spirit of the game of golf.

and this is from the back page of the rules of golf


Play the ball as it lies
Play the course as you find it

And if you can’t do either,
do what is fair
But to do what is fair,
you need to know the

Rules of Golf



If you only ever read those two pieces, then you wouldn't go too far wrong while playing the game we all enjoy.

Lastly (just to clear things up) I never claimed that all of the rules are black and white, in fact I'd say you'd need a masters at law to interpret some of the rules and yes many are grey, I was referring to the rule about advice( in particular club selection) with the comment "black and white", I mean ffs c'mon it's a simple rule and one that comes up alot and if you couldn't see that or it went over your head I feel sorry for you..