Cheating in golf

spurscormac

I have to say that this is a very interesting thread for a relative newcomer to the game. I've played for a good few years, but only ever for fun, not yet in proper competitions, so some these rules are very new to me, and some do seem a bit ridiculous.

Especially the one about asking or giving advice. To be honest, it seems like a stupid rule, why should a pro be allowed the advice of a caddie, yet an amateur not be allowed a couple of words with a fellow player?

The plain simple ones like marking wrong scores, kicking balls or "finding" a different lost ball, are clearly cheating, but a few words from another player is a bit excessive.
As was said above, I would have different yardage to other players and not know how well they hit a shot or not. Added to that, due to the variance in club specifications, my 6 iron might be the equivalent loft to someone else's 5 iron, so again the advantage gained is arbitrary.

However, like those who said above, you don't have a choice in which rules you abide by or not, you should abide by them all.

Finally, someone mentioned you cannot ground your club in a hazard. Fair enough, I was aware of that for bunkers, but for what other hazards can you not ground your club ?

Myksyk

spurscormac wrote: »

Finally, someone mentioned you cannot ground your club in a hazard. Fair enough, I was aware of that for bunkers, but for what other hazards can you not ground your club ?

No you can't ground your club in any hazard.

Myksyk

Interesting watching the President's Cup last night. Saw Tiger's caddy Steve Williams looking into Yang's bag to see what club was missing and therefore what club he had used on a par 3 tee box. It was commented on by the commentators but in such a way as to make me believe that there was nothing wrong with this particular way of gaining information. What's your understanding in relation to this?

Tom Ghostwood

Ive not played club golf since I was 17 (9 years ago) so Ive not indulged in that rule infringement since. I do plan to re-join a club this season & play regular competitions. I use a rangefinder for my yardages. When I use this in a competition & someone asks me whats the yardage, am I allowed tell them? Is this breaking the rules?

PhilipMarlowe

Myksyk wrote: »

Interesting watching the President's Cup last night. Saw Tiger's caddy Steve Williams looking into Yang's bag to see what club was missing and therefore what club he had used on a par 3 tee box. It was commented on by the commentators but in such a way as to make me believe that there was nothing wrong with this particular way of gaining information. What's your understanding in relation to this?

Casually observing what club someone else used is no problem... whether that be by watching the number on the sole as they hold the finish or by looking into the bag and see what one was missing... so long as you don't root around in their bag and take off the cover to see it's ok.

PhilipMarlowe

Tom Ghostwood wrote: »

Ive not played club golf since I was 17 (9 years ago) so Ive not indulged in that rule infringement since. I do plan to re-join a club this season & play regular competitions. I use a rangefinder for my yardages. When I use this in a competition & someone asks me whats the yardage, am I allowed tell them? Is this breaking the rules?

Firstly rangefinders are not always allowed so you have to check does the course you are playing on specifically allow them to be used in competition.
If they are allowed, exchanging distance information is not a problem.

jimbling

Swinging Looney wrote: »

Just as my above post. So many amatuers totally oversetimate the benefit they can get by looking to see what club your mate has hit. Has he caught it flush or not? Cut or drawn a touch? What ball is he using? etc, etc... A pro caddy knows your game perfectly and your game only. Totally different to looking at how your mate plays the game.

Well, you may know your mates game quite well. It's also quite easy to see how well a player has struck a ball. And it's pretty obvious if it was cut or drawn. And you should know what ball he is using too.
Basically, if you are any way observant the information could be very useful. I know I have changed clubs based on noticing what an other player hit and how the shot turned out.


With regards the rules in general... I think a disregard of them is absolutely rife these days. I've often had to say to associates playing with me to not ask me what I've hit etc. They think it's no big deal. I beg to differ. I do agree with the rule... you shouldn't be allowed to help each other, it is not a team event.
Other than that, I think it is mostly ignorance of the rules. Our club is hosting a rules night this week, hopefully it will get a lot of the problems across.

jimbling

Just out of curiosity.

Lets say you are playing a singles event. Three of you are in the competition, but there is a fourth guy just along for the day as a guest. He's a mate of yours and a pretty good player.
Is he allowed to help you on your round?

mack flyer

i played in a society captains prize in killeen golf club a few years back and got a tee time of 2pm...I was playing a football match at 7.30 that evening and told the guys i was playing with on the 1st tee that i would be rushing away after the game...None of us played well and after the game i signed the card i was marking and headed for the football match..
I got home at 11 that night and got a call from the club captain to meet him the next evening and he was very snotty on the phone...Well to make a long story short i got a shock when he accused me of signing a card with the wrong score on it.Sorry i said but i would never do a thing like that and he said that he was walking up a fairway and seen the guy i was marking the card for drive into the water and when he was checking the card noticed that he was down for a birdie 4 on that hole.I was flabbergasted and asked him to show me his card which he did and i could not believe it..i had marked his card with a pencil and signed it after the 18th but the fecker went over his card with a pen after rubbing out the scores.
Needless to say i got an apology and the guy got chucked out..

How could you look at a piece of crystal on the mantlepiece when you know you did not win it???

L.O.F.T

jimbling wrote: »

Our club is hosting a rules night this week, hopefully it will get a lot of the problems across.

A rules night....sounds like fun. Those that cant be arsed to implement them on the course are hardly going to go to a meeting about rules. Cheaters will always cheat regradless of their understanding of the rules, ignorance is not an excuse either. There are free rules books given out in our club from the R&A / GUI every year. If in doubt of a rule consult your playing partners if still undecided refer to the handbook or explain the situation to comp sec on return to the club after your round.

Shannonsider

very interesting thread, have not played in any competitions but playing for fun for years now. Didn't realise that advice giving was so frowned upon..... especially since its the individual who has to hit the ball..... not the advice giver.

Swinging Looney

As jimbling said it is not a team event. Only you can decide what to do for any particular shot.

It should be mentioned though that factual information is ok to ask for and give, like yardages (if you know they are accurate, not "It looks like about 150 to me") or pin positions or hazard locations etc, etc. So asking "Is there any trouble over the back of that green?" is fine but "What line should I take off the tee?" is not.

The club or shot your fellow competitor has hit is considered subjective advice and is not allowed.

Incidentally, Steve Williams lookign at Yangs bag is fine because no advice was asked for by Woods or his caddie and none was given by Yang although it probably is pushing the rules the limit of their intent. For example, is you happen to spot the number on the sole of the guys club while he holds his follow through after his shot, you could not be expected to penalise yourself for spotting it. Or if some guy has a yellow grip on his 5 iron but blue ones on everything else, you could not be expected to look away while he selects his club and plays. In other words, some information will be obvious and easily noticeable. Other info must be deliberately sought after and this is what the rules relate to.

spurscormac

Myksyk wrote: »

No you can't ground your club in any hazard.

Excuse my ignorance, but are there any other hazards apart from bunkers and water hazards?
And in terms of water hazards, what is deemed part of the hazard, the water itself or within a staked area ?

Daithio9

spurscormac wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but are there any other hazards apart from bunkers and water hazards?
And in terms of water hazards, what is deemed part of the hazard, the water itself or within a staked area ?

Just to confuse you a little bit more, a water hazaed does not have to have water in it to be considered a water hazard.
All water hazards are marked by stakes and on some occasions actual lines painted on the ground, and you are cosidered to be in a water hazard if your ball lies in or is touching any point in line with the outside edge of the water hazard stakes.

gorfield

mag wrote: »

thats quite amazing if true.

very true, the individual will be caught, ive seen an incident that was truly shocking while representing his province. Im not going into detail but this crap isnt reserved for beginners.

thegen

I have yet to witness cheating but a guy I knew once witnessed the following. He was walking parallel to a hole and a guy was walking 30/40 yds ahead of his playing partners as he got to the green to mark his ball he bent down to pace a coin as marker but instead flicked it 10ft nearer the hole and picked his ball up. When his playing partners caught up they we non the wiser. My friend left his faiway and challenged the player in question. His denied it but. He reported this to the golf club in question. They player had not returned his card and was a visitor on the day in question.

dublinrover

thegen wrote: »

I have yet to witness cheating but a guy I knew once witnessed the following. He was walking parallel to a hole and a guy was walking 30/40 yds ahead of his playing partners as he got to the green to mark his ball he bent down to pace a coin as marker but instead flicked it 10ft nearer the hole and picked his ball up. When his playing partners caught up they we non the wiser. My friend left his faiway and challenged the player in question. His denied it but. He reported this to the golf club in question. They player had not returned his card and was a visitor on the day in question.

LOL thats a good one , every club seems to have a few guys who are magicans out of the rough they always find their ball and it always has got a great lie no matter how deep the rough do you ever wonder if you find tees in the rough or the semi how they got there, the other classic cheater is the guy who offers to mark all the cards. Have also played with a few paranoid guys who assumes every else is a cheat and are constantly watching everything and trying to catch people out can be very off putting these guys usually have few friends.

Shannonsider

Very impressive to hear about the etiquette with regards to maintaining the letter of the law in golf. Comparing this to other sports where 'winning at all costs seems to be the motto', its very interesting to hear of the very high morale code that golf upholds.

I would be one of those who plays on the edge in terms of obeying golf rules (out of ignorance rather than cheating) but having read this thread I will do my best to maintain a high morale code when playing golf in future.

Mister Sifter

Had a bit of a hard one recently where i was playing with one of my best mates, whom i play alot of golf with, in a stableford. I wasn't marking his card but the guy who was marked him down for a 4 on which he in fact had a 5.

It ended up giving him one more point than me and edged him into the prizes list, with me missing out.

The new feature on Howdidido which allows you to see what each player scored on each hole was what made me realise.

Mr check raise

Some of the rules though are there to be broken! The one about not telling people what clubs you hit is a bit stupid i think. If pros have caddies surely we should be allowed give each other a little hint. i do flaunt that rule a bit. one example was the 16th in my own own club, a par 3 which says its 190 yards from the back tees but its downhill and trees behind the green. i came to it with a pretty good score in the captains prize(i had never played from the back tee) and flew a 5 iron over the green only for my partner to say he'd hit 8 iron. So when i played with a society a couple of weeks later and i came to it again i hit iron and told the other guy in my group(our clubbing was around the same) what to hit. he couldnt believe it cos he was about to hit 4 iron!

When you are a member you should be able to give advice about the course, its not that much of an advantage, thats just my opinion. What i cant stand is dodgy counters or people who make preferred lies for themselves

mag

gorfield wrote: »

very true, the individual will be caught, ive seen an incident that was truly shocking while representing his province. Im not going into detail but this crap isnt reserved for beginners.

did you report them if you saw the incident?

Daithio9

Mr check raise wrote: »

Some of the rules though are there to be broken! The one about not telling people what clubs you hit is a bit stupid i think. If pros have caddies surely we should be allowed give each other a little hint. i do flaunt that rule a bit. one example was the 16th in my own own club, a par 3 which says its 190 yards from the back tees but its downhill and trees behind the green. i came to it with a pretty good score in the captains prize(i had never played from the back tee) and flew a 5 iron over the green only for my partner to say he'd hit 8 iron. So when i played with a society a couple of weeks later and i came to it again i hit iron and told the other guy in my group(our clubbing was around the same) what to hit. he couldnt believe it cos he was about to hit 4 iron!

When you are a member you should be able to give advice about the course, its not that much of an advantage, thats just my opinion. What i cant stand is dodgy counters or people who make preferred lies for themselves

I think your a little bit confused here. As far as I can make out from what you wrote above in the first example you were told after you hit your shot what club your buddy played which is perfectly within the rules.
In the 2nd example you told some one before they hit their shot what club to hit, which is against the rules and you recieve a 2 shot penalty.
With regard to pro's and their caddies, there is absolutly nothing stopping you or anyone else from having a caddie and availing of his info.
Btw none of the rules are there to be broken, sadly this is the attitude of alot of newcomers to the game, where they have played other sports e.g. Gaa, soccer etc., and it's not only encouraged to break the rules, but it's expected! golf is not like other sports in that regard.

jimbling

jimbling wrote: »

Just out of curiosity.

Lets say you are playing a singles event. Three of you are in the competition, but there is a fourth guy just along for the day as a guest. He's a mate of yours and a pretty good player.
Is he allowed to help you on your round?

Anyone want to reply to this?
I know I could bring a caddie along if I wanted to, but what about a playing partner that is not taking part in the competition?

Daithio9

jimbling wrote: »

Anyone want to reply to this?
I know I could bring a caddie along if I wanted to, but what about a playing partner that is not taking part in the competition?

I'm not 100% sure but I doubt it very much jimbling.

PhilipMarlowe

Well you can't ask for advice anyway because you are only entitled to ask advice of your caddie (or partner which doesn't apply here).
Even though some things are not specifically dealt with in the rules, you could see it being dealt with in equity (rule 1-4) as contrary to the spirit of the rules and I would imagine that that would be the case here... my opinion anyway.

stockdam

I laughed at the comment about ignoring some of the rules as they are silly.......sorry I didn't laugh at the person but at the idea of cherry-picking which rules you dislike......if only it was as easy as that.

As for giving advice.......you can only so if you are a player's caddy (you can only advise the person who you are caddying for) or you can advise your playing partner (if in a team game.....note partner doesn't mean the people you are playing with but it means your partner in a fourball, foresome, greensome etc.).


If an outside party gives you advice then once again you can't stop that but if say it was your dad or friend and they weren't your caddy then you really should quietly ask them not to do so as this would be a difficult area.

Swinging Looney

Trying to justify ignoring a rule because you think it is silly is just plain lazy. Play the game as it was intended. I could get no pleasure from playing any other way. You should see it as the challenge of golf aside from hitting the ball. Knowing the rules and applying them correctly is part of the attraction of the game for me. Ignorance is one thing, but knowingly ignoring a rule because it suits you to is just not in the spirit of the game.

P.S. You will find that almost every club competition prohibits caddies. Even if it's not written in local rules, you would not be allowed use one if you tried. Club level golf is supposed to be you the individual against everyone else, not you and your mates against everyone else...

PhilipMarlowe

For a sport with about a billion rules, there are only a few that are 'mildly silly' in my opinion and often times these will be corrected because a situation may arise that wasn't forethought that makes the existing rule 'daft'.
If you are going to bend one rule you may as well bend loads of them because you've decided that the rules don't apply to you. It's not easy to know what the rules are but for god sake, there are a few main situations that arise pretty regularly on the course and so many people don't know how to proceed...
Water hazards, unplayable, staked tree etc.
These things come up so often and anyone playing a couple of months will have had plenty of opportunity to wonder what the right thing to do is... then take the 10 minutes to read up on it and learn for the next day. It still annoys me that you'd meet someone playing for 20 years and off single figures and has no concept of "nearest point of relief".... "But that will put me in the bush?" Damn right it will.. it's relief from the staked tree but not "get me out where I'll be able to hit the par 5 in two..."

Don't think I've ever seen someone cheat per se. Seen a newbie throw the coin in front of the ball when marking and then replace the ball ahead of the coin to gain two inches... put him straight and we all lived happily ever after.

jimbling

Cheers.

Just wondered as I happened to be on a round with my father the other day. He wasn't playing in the comp, but the other two of us were.
He didn't offer any advice, as ... well .. I'm a much better golfer than him , but it crossed my mind that he could have when I read this thread.

BombSquad

Swinging Looney wrote: »

P.S. You will find that almost every club competition prohibits caddies. Even if it's not written in local rules, you would not be allowed use one if you tried. Club level golf is supposed to be you the individual against everyone else, not you and your mates against everyone else...

Where is this prohibited? Who stops you from doing this?

My OH often comes out for a walk and caddy for me. I often see people bringing their young son/daughter out to caddy. Most players in interclub competitions will bring a caddy. I've never seen or heard of anyone or club having a problem with this. Apart from interclub competitions I wouldn't use a caddy for a competitive advantage but just for the company and craic.