Accountability for Kieran Byrne?

deisedol

The story on the front of the munster express today says 'professor byrne who does not drive, has pointed out that his taxi cost s less than if he had been driving a car and claining mileage' -
the question is, if this is the case why is there such a big deal about it?
If he had to travel on WIT business then surely as a non driver he was within his right to do it this way instead of mileage.
i would love to see a comparison of the mileage rates v cost of a driver per mile and see if in fact it is cost neutral or cheaper?
also i would love to see the mileadge rates of the president of Cork IT and do a comparison as they should be similar....then we will have fairer idea if in fact KB 's expenses were excessive.
If what KB says is true then he has been well and truly shafted and will probably cost the state big bucks in compensation for defamation etc.

Why oh why do the people in WIT not like the fact that the president has a nice office..is it begrudgery or what? it beggars belief really- do they want him in a portcabin out the back?? To the outsider like me it is such a truly absurd mindset, in private industry if you had a problem with the boss having a nicer office than you- you would be fired out the door...but as we know the teachers in WIT can never be fired!

Lawher

deisedol wrote: »

The story on the front of the munster express today says 'professor byrne who does not drive, has pointed out that his taxi cost s less than if he had been driving a car and claining mileage' -
the question is, if this is the case why is there such a big deal about it?

You know I might be wrong, or KB might have a twin but I think I have seen him many times driving a big dark old Merc on the Dunmore Road around the Ardkeen shops. The last time I think I saw him driving was around Christmas.

Sully

Maybe its an assumption by the papers, seeing as he gets taxis? Not sure tbh.

Lawher

deisedol wrote: »

i would love to see a comparison of the mileage rates v cost of a driver per mile and see if in fact it is cost neutral or cheaper?
also i would love to see the mileadge rates of the president of Cork IT and do a comparison as they should be similar....then we will have fairer idea if in fact KB 's expenses were excessive.

FOI is for everyone. I dont think it is very expensive.

deisedol wrote: »

Why oh why do the people in WIT not like the fact that the president has a nice office..is it begrudgery or what? it beggars belief really- do they want him in a portcabin out the back??

tbh I dont think it's just people in wit not liking the spending. I looked up the support facebook for KB and not too many people were there. Also it may of started with the office but in the Times earlier this week it is now called Taxigate. Portacabin out back? As an outsider you didnt know probably that he already had a nice office when he decided to build a new one in the new building. One of the lads in that building told me that the space was designed as a student area but he got it instead. Anyway like 24,000 for curtains really?

Godge

beegirl wrote: »

First of all, lecturers who have €80k plus salaries would have been working in their job for 20/30 years before they get to that salary - you have to start off as an assistant lecturer and get less than half of that salary (for doing the exact same job, mind you). Also to get onto the "lecturer" pay scale nowadays you have to get a PhD first and to get onto the "senior" lecturer scale you have to have a internationally recognised record of research - this is in addition to about 20 years work experience. The vast majority of lecturers in WIT do not get paid those kinds of salaries, just so ya know....

Secondly, you don't just show up for your 18 hours in class, like others have said, several hours preparation go into each hour in front of a class - in fairness, you wouldn't give a presentation in work/college in front of a group of people without fully preparing for it so why do you think this would be any different? Also there is assessment, course development, preparing for new modules etc. Ok so the holidays are fantastic, but it's 10 weeks off actually, not 26... and also you are expected to do research (not that all lecturers do this!) that is unpaid and totally "off your own bat" so to speak... so a lot of people don't actually take that much time off at all.

Maybe check your facts next time eh :rolleyes:

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=&pcategory=10815&ecategory=29207&sectionpage=&language=EN&link&page=3


circular 03/05 on the Department of Education website sets out the requirements for progression to Lecturer. Holding a PhD gives you quicker progression but it is not necessary to hold any postgraduate qualification. It states "Possession of an appropriate defined postgraduate qualification or equivalent shall normally be considered an essential requirement"

That means a masters is normally required but some can progress without even a masters.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Assistant_Lecturer

Copy of scales from the TUI website. Relevant scales are Assistant Lecturer - nine points - and Lecturer Scale/L2 - which is the scale you progress to. It takes a maximum of 18 years to reach a salary of €79,322. If you have incremental credit when starting or you progress early, those 18 years will be quicker. The top of the scale, which takes a maximum of 20 years to reach is €83,811.

I won't bother posting the contracts of employment for assistant lecturers and lecturers and pointing out the differences - they are available on both sites.

In summary, you are incorrect that there are no difference between the jobs of Assistant Lecturer and Lecturer, you are incorrect that you need a PhD to get a job of lecturer, and you are incorrect that it takes 20/30 years to reach a salary in excess of €80k, in fact that takes a maximum of 19 years and is considerably less for most.

It is funny that you asked a previous poster to check their facts.

beegirl

Godge wrote: »

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=&pcategory=10815&ecategory=29207&sectionpage=&language=EN&link&page=3


circular 03/05 on the Department of Education website sets out the requirements for progression to Lecturer. Holding a PhD gives you quicker progression but it is not necessary to hold any postgraduate qualification. It states "Possession of an appropriate defined postgraduate qualification or equivalent shall normally be considered an essential requirement"

That means a masters is normally required but some can progress without even a masters.

Yes that's true for people already in the system, but in practice nobody new would get hired without a PhD because of the high weighting it is given in interviews...

Godge wrote: »

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Assistant_Lecturer

Copy of scales from the TUI website. Relevant scales are Assistant Lecturer - nine points - and Lecturer Scale/L2 - which is the scale you progress to. It takes a maximum of 18 years to reach a salary of €79,322. If you have incremental credit when starting or you progress early, those 18 years will be quicker. The top of the scale, which takes a maximum of 20 years to reach is €83,811.

Ok so it takes 18 to 20 years, which is pretty much exactly what I said :rolleyes:

Godge wrote: »

I won't bother posting the contracts of employment for assistant lecturers and lecturers and pointing out the differences - they are available on both sites.

I didn't say the job descriptions were the same, but in practice assistant lecturers, lecturers and senior lecturers all do the exact same job, or at least that's the way it is in WIT.

Godge wrote: »

In summary, you are incorrect that there are no difference between the jobs of Assistant Lecturer and Lecturer, you are incorrect that you need a PhD to get a job of lecturer, and you are incorrect that it takes 20/30 years to reach a salary in excess of €80k, in fact that takes a maximum of 19 years and is considerably less for most.

It is funny that you asked a previous poster to check their facts.

No need to be an a$$, I was just making a point in response to another poster that lecturers don't just show up for 18 hours a week, rattle off something off the top of their heads and automatically get paid over €80k for doing it... You can nitpick all you want but I believe I made that point and nothing you have added has changed it.

blindsider

deisedol wrote: »

The story on the front of the munster express today says 'professor byrne who does not drive, has pointed out that his taxi cost s less than if he had been driving a car and claining mileage' -
the question is, if this is the case why is there such a big deal about it?
If he had to travel on WIT business then surely as a non driver he was within his right to do it this way instead of mileage.
i would love to see a comparison of the mileage rates v cost of a driver per mile and see if in fact it is cost neutral or cheaper?
also i would love to see the mileadge rates of the president of Cork IT and do a comparison as they should be similar....then we will have fairer idea if in fact KB 's expenses were excessive. (Try the FOI!)
If what KB says is true then he has been well and truly shafted and will probably cost the state big bucks in compensation for defamation etc.

Why oh why do the people in WIT not like the fact that the president has a nice office..is it begrudgery or what? it beggars belief really- do they want him in a portcabin out the back?? To the outsider like me it is such a truly absurd mindset, in private industry if you had a problem with the boss having a nicer office than you- you would be fired out the door...but as we know the teachers in WIT can never be fired!

Google is your friend!

This is from Mazars.ie - best I could find w/o trawling:

The Civil Service motor mileage rates per KM for individuals who are obliged to use their car (or motorcycle) in the normal course of their duties are (with effect from 5 March 2009)





Motor Cars

Official Motor Travel
in a calendar year Engine Capacity: Up to 1,200 cc Engine Capacity: 1,201 cc to 1,500 cc Engine Capacity:
1,501 cc and over Up to 6,437km 39.12 cent 46.25 cent 59.07 cent 6,438km and over 21.22 cent 23.62 cent 28.46 cent
So assuming a car over 2L he could claim 59.07 for the first 6437km and 28.46c thereafter.

So if he went to Dublin - 164 on the AA site, that's €96 (under 6437km) and €46 over the mileage threshold. 6437km wouldn't take long to rack up!

Now, we go back to google 'Taxi fares Ireland' and, hey presto:

http://taxiregulation.nationaltransport.ie/for-users/tax-fare-calculator/

€277 from Waterford to Dublin (the lowest price quoted!)

Now maybe you could negotiate something, but I doubt it's legal anymore.

So, it looks to me like KB has been disingenuous in his claims - hmmmm!

Godge

beegirl wrote: »

Yes that's true for people already in the system, but in practice nobody new would get hired without a PhD because of the high weighting it is given in interviews...



Ok so it takes 18 to 20 years, which is pretty much exactly what I said :rolleyes:




I didn't say the job descriptions were the same, but in practice assistant lecturers, lecturers and senior lecturers all do the exact same job, or at least that's the way it is in WIT.




No need to be an a$$, I was just making a point in response to another poster that lecturers don't just show up for 18 hours a week, rattle off something off the top of their heads and automatically get paid over €80k for doing it... You can nitpick all you want but I believe I made that point and nothing you have added has changed it.

Please produce evidence that PhDs are given a high weighting in interviews. Perhaps you have a copy of the marking scheme and notes for the marking scheme. You might further back it up with evidence that all of those employed in say the last five years in lecturing posts in WIT already possess doctorates. I personally know two people appointed in the last three years to Head of Department posts in Institutes of Technology who did not have PhDs - one has subsequently obtained one and the other is currently undertaking one.

Your post said 20 to 30 years, my post said a maximum of 18 years to go above 80k. There is a material difference between those.

Assistant Lecturers are required to teach 18 hours a week up to 630 annually while Lecturers are required to teach 16 hours a week up to 560 annually. For a more detailed breakdown of the differences, please look at pages 269 to 270 of the 2002 Benchmarking Report - see link. There is also reference to the quals needed.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=500&CatID=31&StartDate=01+January+2002


I am not being an ass. Your post asked another poster to check his/her facts before posting. I am just drawing your attention to inaccuracies that are in your post. In my opinion, if someone is telling another poster to check their facts before posting, at least they should get the facts in their post accurate.

beegirl

Godge wrote: »

Please produce evidence that PhDs are given a high weighting in interviews. Perhaps you have a copy of the marking scheme and notes for the marking scheme. You might further back it up with evidence that all of those employed in say the last five years in lecturing posts in WIT already possess doctorates. I personally know two people appointed in the last three years to Head of Department posts in Institutes of Technology who did not have PhDs - one has subsequently obtained one and the other is currently undertaking one.

Your post said 20 to 30 years, my post said a maximum of 18 years to go above 80k. There is a material difference between those.

Assistant Lecturers are required to teach 18 hours a week up to 630 annually while Lecturers are required to teach 16 hours a week up to 560 annually. For a more detailed breakdown of the differences, please look at pages 269 to 270 of the 2002 Benchmarking Report - see link. There is also reference to the quals needed.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=500&CatID=31&StartDate=01+January+2002


I am not being an ass. Your post asked another poster to check his/her facts before posting. I am just drawing your attention to inaccuracies that are in your post. In my opinion, if someone is telling another poster to check their facts before posting, at least they should get the facts in their post accurate.

Oh yeah, hang on till I go off and gather all that evidence for you.... :rolleyes: are you actually serious??

Did you even read the post that I was responding to? Because imo it was way off the mark... whereas you seem to be more or less agreeing with my points but just taking issue that they are only 90% correct and not fact-checked to the last degree. Why argue with someone who is more or less correct rather than some who is totally wrong?

Anyway... I don't want to be accused of dragging the thread off-topic anymore than it has been already, so I'm done arguing! YOU WIN!!! You're the best fact-checker and fact-knower of them all, good for you :cool:

x3wiggles

It's all so shocking.

Lawher

deisedol wrote: »

Why oh why do the people in WIT not like the fact that the president has a nice office..is it begrudgery or what? it beggars belief really- do they want him in a portcabin out the back?? To the outsider like me it is such a truly absurd mindset, in private industry if you had a problem with the boss having a nicer office than you- you would be fired out the door...but as we know the teachers in WIT can never be fired!

I keep reading that kb is entitled to a step back post at wit in managment that pays 120,000. But I also read that he came from UL to wit. Shouldnt the step back post be in UL? Or does it just mean that his money is steppin back? if it is true that teachers in wit cant be fired sounds to me like he must have the same deal.

Nickfro

Stupid money spent on silly things. From a reliable source, The papers also fail to mention that Mr Byrne had a member of the college staff deliver the morning paper to his home address most mornings if not every. Whether the member of staff was paid for this it is unknown but im sure it wasnt done for free.

looder

beegirl wrote: »

Oh yeah, hang on till I go off and gather all that evidence for you.... :rolleyes: are you actually serious??

Did you even read the post that I was responding to? Because imo it was way off the mark... whereas you seem to be more or less agreeing with my points but just taking issue that they are only 90% correct and not fact-checked to the last degree. Why argue with someone who is more or less correct rather than some who is totally wrong?

Anyway... I don't want to be accused of dragging the thread off-topic anymore than it has been already, so I'm done arguing! YOU WIN!!! You're the best fact-checker and fact-knower of them all, good for you :cool:

I just want to point out RE WIT anyway, that you now need a PHD to get into lecturing, or are at least need to be undertaking one at present.

This was told to me by a course leader in the college less than six months ago.

He did however state that not all IT's have the same criteria, some will take on people with only a Masters degree (with preference given to Masters by Research) and a possible reason for WIT only hiring PHD graduates is due to them trying to get University status.

Sully

Lawher wrote: »

I keep reading that kb is entitled to a step back post at wit in managment that pays 120,000. But I also read that he came from UL to wit. Shouldnt the step back post be in UL? Or does it just mean that his money is steppin back? if it is true that teachers in wit cant be fired sounds to me like he must have the same deal.

Not sure, I assume it applies to wit because that's where he was President.

Some lecturers can't be "fired", depending on how long the lecturer is working. Its called tenure.

Dymo

looder wrote: »

I just want to point out RE WIT anyway, that you now need a PHD to get into lecturing, or are at least need to be undertaking one at present.

Does this mean that the current lecturers don't need one and it's only for new lecturers. Also does PHD mean Professor or Doctorate?

t. kelly

This highlights the very issue regarding Kieran Btrne's use of the title professor. He call himself Professor yet he is not one. Dr Byrne was once appointed to the position of Associate Professor by UL. It was permissible for him to use this lesser title there. As Institutes of Technology do not have professors he did not pick up a new title there. Thus, it would seem as if he carried his old title from UL to WIT, but conveniently dropped the prefix ‘Associate’.

Let me put it another way. It is dishonest to use the title of professor since he is not, and never was, a professor. However, even if he was, it is not a portable title. A professor is institutionally conferred and it usually has a position description of some kind. A contrasting example is the title ‘Doctor of Philosophy’ (PhD) which is conferred by an international community of scholars upon achievement of a particular standard of academic performance. It is recognition that the holder has joined their peers in this broad, international academic community. Once gained, it is able to be used for life: there is no expiration date of the title, nor is it contingent on affiliation, employment or association with an institution. ‘Professor’, by contrast, relates to a particular position in a particular university and is conferred through reference to that individual institution’s classification and/or promotions standards. Importantly, it also has a date of expiration: this is the point at which employment or association with a particular institution ceases. It cannot be carried to the holder’s next position (unless, of course, the position in the new institution comes with the title) nor can it be used during periods of unemployment.

Lawher

t. kelly wrote: »

As Institutes of Technology do not have professors he did not pick up a new title there.

One of my friends is at DIT and insists that they have professors. I checked theyre webpage and they first started in 2007.

http://www.dit.ie/news/archive2007/professor/

Also I may be mistaken but I think a couple of weeks ago on WLR there was an announcement about a professor Bill Gorman of WIT. I couldnt find nothing on the web to verify that WIT too has professors. Maybe WLR got it wrong.

Why dont institutes of tecnology have professors?

looder

Lawher wrote: »

One of my friends is at DIT and insists that they have professors. I checked theyre webpage and they first started in 2007.

http://www.dit.ie/news/archive2007/professor/

Also I may be mistaken but I think a couple of weeks ago on WLR there was an announcement about a professor Bill Gorman of WIT. I couldnt find nothing on the web to verify that WIT too has professors. Maybe WLR got it wrong.

Why dont institutes of tecnology have professors?

He was Dr Bill twelve months ago anyway.

Dymo wrote: »

Does this mean that the current lecturers don't need one and it's only for new lecturers. Also does PHD mean Professor or Doctorate?

I'm not sure. I doubt they do if they're permanent already but I know that they're strongly encouraged to do one. The same with admin staff in WIT. They're encouraged to do Masters degrees part time while working.

7Sins

Considering the tourism buidling cost 20 million and his offices which are situated there cost 150,000. I really don't see the issue guys?? That's 0.75% the total build cost.....ERM 0.75%, chillout lads. He is the dude that welcomes all them rich saudis into the country with their wealth, hows he going to convince Achmed to study in WIT with an ol' prefab office lol, typical backward morons :rolleyes:

Lawher

7Sins wrote: »

Considering the tourism buidling cost 20 million and his offices which are situated there cost 150,000. I really don't see the issue guys?? That's 0.75% the total build cost.....ERM 0.75%, chillout lads. He is the dude that welcomes all them rich saudis into the country with their wealth, hows he going to convince Achmed to study in WIT with an ol' prefab office lol, typical backward morons :rolleyes:

I dont think the issue is how much of the 20 million was spent on his office. the issue is why any money was spent on that new office. KB had a nice office. When he came it was done up for him. From what I was told by students in the new tourism building he took over a big area that was designed for students. WIT if it wants to get foreign students needs good facilities for students. KB was never in a portcabin. He moved from a nice office to the big expensive office and then continued spending on it.

7Sins

Lawher wrote: »

I dont think the issue is how much of the 20 million was spent on his office. the issue is why any money was spent on that new office. KB had a nice office. When he came it was done up for him. From what I was told by students in the new tourism building he took over a big area that was designed for students. WIT if it wants to get foreign students needs good facilities for students. KB was never in a portcabin. He moved from a nice office to the big expensive office and then continued spending on it.

Fair enough, where was he before moving? was it in that main building I'd deffo class that as a portcabin lol

Seriously though, I think no students should've been allowed in that tourism building, they should have just built Kieran a palace instead :pac: Sure doesn't yer man in UL have a million euro mansion somewhere on campus :P

blindsider

Seriously though, I think no students should've been allowed in that tourism building

So students should not be allowed in the Tourism building? Why was it built? Was it not built to educate students?

If you've read the rest of this thread, you'll be aware that several points were raised:

-his use of the title Professor - it seems that it is a personal preference of KB's, to use this title. He weas never a full Professor, and certainly not at WIT.

- He spent a lot of money on taxis and defended this by saying it was good value - it wasn't! (See my earlier post on this.)

- He spent €150K on a new office for himself when WIT was broke - even if he needed a new office, €150K is an offensive amount to spend.


BTW - he's not the guy who welcomes o/s students - I suspect he meets very few of them individually. WIT has an International Education Manager - contact details freely available on WIT.ie

Feel free to add any points I may have missed.

7Sins

blindsider wrote: »

Seriously though, I think no students should've been allowed in that tourism building

So students should not be allowed in the Tourism building? Why was it built? Was it not built to educate students?

If you've read the rest of this thread, you'll be aware that several points were raised:

-his use of the title Professor - it seems that it is a personal preference of KB's, to use this title. He weas never a full Professor, and certainly not at WIT.

- He spent a lot of money on taxis and defended this by saying it was good value - it wasn't! (See my earlier post on this.)

- He spent €150K on a new office for himself when WIT was broke - even if he needed a new office, €150K is an offensive amount to spend.


Feel free to add any points I may have missed.

Don't be quoting me out of context, if you read my post the why is obvious as I've stated that the building should've been designed as a palace for Kieran :rolleyes:
I've read those points you mention elsewhere...
150k is pretty good price considering the luxury.
Taxis are better value than private chauffeurs, private jets etc, everyone knows that.
And the professor title, I've no knowledge of semantics in this regard but to what I know, he brought the title from the UL? I don't care if he wants to call himself shiela, he can :pac:
The man was about the only half decent thing about WIT and from what I know he hasn't been reappointed I can only hope he gets a position somewhere more worthy of his attributes in the future, Goodluck K!

blindsider

7Sins wrote: »

blindsider wrote: »

Seriously though, I think no students should've been allowed in that tourism building

Don't be quoting me out of context, I didn't!!! if you read my post the why is obvious as I've stated that the building should've been designed as a palace for Kieran :rolleyes: Ah shur, 'tis yourself that's in it Kieran! Why didn't you say?
I've read those points you mention elsewhere...
150k is pretty good price considering the luxury.
Taxis are better value than private chauffeurs, private jets Easy on the hard stuff therre now - 'tis early yet!!! Private jets???Are you serious??? How in the name of God would he be entitled to a private jet? etc, everyone knows that.
And the professor title, I've no knowledge of semantics in this regard but to what I know, he brought the title from the UL? I don't care if he wants to call himself shiela, I presume you meant Sheila? he can :pac:
The man was about the only half decent thing about WIT and from what I know he hasn't been reappointed I can only hope he gets a position somewhere more worthy of his attributes in the future, I'd love to speculate here, but I'd get in trouble!!! Goodluck K!

I mistakenly thought that you had something useful to contribute to a fairly serious debate - my mistake!

7Sins

blindsider wrote: »

7Sins wrote: »

blindsider wrote: »

I mistakenly thought that you had something useful to contribute to a fairly serious debate - my mistake!

I can't see a serious debate here at all, somewhere else someone said funds for the building where allocated in 2008, they were allocated long before that. I'd guess that if they got funding for 20 million thereabouts, any money left over would not be transfered to subjects LOL, I'd imagine it would either go back to whence it came or go into other building projects in which there's loads of buildings going up on campus this year and out in Carraignore. I've viewed the break down of costs, and 150,000 is not expensive of which only 50,000 thereabouts actually went into kitting his office out. The 24,000 euro curtains is a rumour and nothing else from what I can tell. There again if the institute didn't see fit to reappoint him, something may be a miss, but I won't specualte and Kieran can have my benefit of doubt any day of the week

blindsider

7Sins wrote: »

blindsider wrote: »

7Sins wrote: »

I can't see a serious debate here at all, somewhere else someone Him again?! said funds for the building where allocated in 2008, they were allocated long before that. I'd guess that if they got funding for 20 million thereabouts, any money left over would not be transfered to subjects LOL, I'd imagine it would either go back to whence it came or go into other building projects in which there's loads of buildings going up on campus this year and out in Carraignore. I've viewed the break down of costs, and 150,000 is not expensive of which only 50,000!!!! thereabouts actually went into kitting his office out. The 24,000 euro curtains is a rumour and nothing else from what I can tell. There again if the institute didn't see fit to reappoint him, something may be a miss, but I won't specualte and Kieran can have my benefit of doubt any day of the week

LOL! End of my replies unless the quality on this thread improves!

7Sins

blindsider wrote: »

7Sins wrote: »

blindsider wrote: »

LOL! End of my replies unless the quality on this thread improves!

Probably best that you stop posting alright lol, don't worry someone will be along later that'll agree with your sensibilities

Lawher

Got a taxi home last night. The taximan was chatting away. I asked him if the taximen were in morning over KB. Once I mentioned KB your man starts lol and says KB is refusing to leave his office. I said sure he has already left because his contract wasnt renewed. Your man then sez no he wont physically leave his office. I had vision of KB behind a baricade so I said it was good he had 2 kitchens in there. Your man said something about all the dosh spent on security then says KB has taken the step down post and is refusing to leave his office. He said his brother works in the tourism building and KB is coming in everyday not a bother on him.

TBH it seemed funnier last night. Anybody hear anything about this? if this is true how ironic that the lavish spending on the office that help cost him the top job he is getting to keep.

Reporter 11

Left this a long time ago but I feel KB was hard done - shafted with no right of reply and as far as I know he is out of his office and new man in with 2 deputies taking over his job!!! Not sure how these were appointed but it is rumoured that this temporary arrangement will cost around €500k

Reporter 11

Just catching up on all this stuff, I agree KB was a great figure head for WIT and all the guys working with him should have protected him and I agree with your take on the spending small buttons for such a high profile person meeting and greeting all the best from presidents down