Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

Guilds Flash kick fadc forward is now -5 as well. The hits just keep on coming!

According to Deiminion his UDK and U2 combos are pretty good now (He tweeted that he's hitting 500 or so in an optimised combo with it). So it's not all bad news for the character, I guess.

TheMikenyan

Moar balance change vids.

Makoto

Dan

Balrog

Yang

T. Hawk

C. Viper

Adon

Dee Jay

E. Honda

El Fuerte

Gen

Sakura

FutureGuy

Well that's Deejay absolutely dead in the water. Absolutely horsesh!t changes. Let's buff a move and then nerf the **** of it at the same time.

So, Decapre, whatcha doin' later?

UberPrinny_Baal

FutureGuy wrote: »

Well that's Deejay absolutely dead in the water. Absolutely horsesh!t changes. Let's buff a move and then nerf the **** of it at the same time.

Yup. We done.

Freejay's not happy either

FutureGuy

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Yup. We done.

Freejay's not happy either

It's a farce. At a design level, how can you nerf the weakest character in the game?

Danonino.

Yang buffs sound really good then poor gen and dee jay. Fingers el crossed for Guy.

Ramza

LK Sobat nerf was needed, **** needed to go. One of the reasons why the Ryu-Deejay matchup is very in deejay's favor, it blows up any poking game or corner pressure Ryu can try to apply. The fact it breaks armor is also annoying. Make it not break armor maybe and it would be okay, but really silly move in general

EX MGB nerf is good, **** pushes you way too far out as is, I know his wakeup sucks but cmon, you're playing a zoning heavy char, your wakeup is supposed to be subpar. The buff on it seems fine, it starts up faster and is throw invincible, if you get baited you deserve to get your ass punished, where as now it's rly hard to punish. +1 Capcom, all hail real chars :pac:

Dreddybajs

I always thought LK sobat's low invincibility was a bit silly as well. It rewarded just doing random special moves at footsie range instead of actually playing footsies. Dunno if it needed to be nerfed, but it seems like he's getting a few other buffs instead at least.

UberPrinny_Baal

Come on Ramza.

Ryu v Deejay in Ultra!

I'll 'ave you!

Ramza

Dreddybajs wrote: »

It rewarded just doing random special moves at footsie range instead of actually playing footsies

+1, my point exactly. Working Deejay to the corner is a task in itself, if you manage to push a deejay player to the corner, you deserve to go to town. You can mindlessly just do LK Sobat and pretty much suffer no repercussions. It will go over fast, low pokes, break armor, and is safe on block, pretty OP move imo. You have to resort to cr.MP with Ryu for footsies in that matchup, and it just does not fill the role that cr.MK provides. This matchup will probably be a lot more even now in Ultra, maybe still slightly in Deejay favor

Another thing people have to note is that shotos and DP characters in general are also getting heavy wakeup nerfs, no more "DP fadc forward get out of jail for free when I have 2 meters on wakeup", while Deejay is generally getting a wakeup buff. If you bait my DP fadc on wakeup, I'm now -5 and deserve to be punished, so it's perfectly fine that Deejay see's a setback in the same area, but also, his wakeup reversal has gotten some sort of buff. C'mon, these changes are totally justified imo

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Come on Ramza.

Ryu v Deejay in Ultra!

I'll 'ave you!

FT10!11!!! :cool:

Doctor DooM

LK sobat is not safe on block unless at max range (virtually never in the corner) and loads of stuff beats it. Including throws.

Lern 2 play Ramza :P

Dreddybajs

It's fairly safe vs. a decent amount of the cast (Cody is the only character with which I can easily punish it consistently) and you can't exactly throw it if he throws it out at a range to beat your low forward though.

FutureGuy

Ramza wrote: »

+1, my point exactly. Working Deejay to the corner is a task in itself, if you manage to push a deejay player to the corner, you deserve to go to town. You can mindlessly just do LK Sobat and pretty much suffer no repercussions. It will go over fast, low pokes, break armor, and is safe on block, pretty OP move imo. You have to resort to cr.MP with Ryu for footsies in that matchup, and it just does not fill the role that cr.MK provides. This matchup will probably be a lot more even now in Ultra, maybe still slightly in Deejay favor

Another thing people have to note is that shotos and DP characters in general are also getting heavy wakeup nerfs, no more "DP fadc forward get out of jail for free when I have 2 meters on wakeup", while Deejay is generally getting a wakeup buff. If you bait my DP fadc on wakeup, I'm now -5 and deserve to be punished, so it's perfectly fine that Deejay see's a setback in the same area, but also, his wakeup reversal has gotten some sort of buff. C'mon, these changes are totally justified imo



FT10!11!!! :cool:

What Doom said. You cannot spam LK Sobat, especially against someone that knows the match-up. It's punishable and now it's even more so. It was one of our very few footsie options. Taking that away means this aspect of his game is, to use some of the FGC venacular, ass yo.

The MGU nerf is a complete joke. Deejay is not a zoning heavy character like Guile, he is supposed to be able to go offensive when the time is right and stay on the offensive. Now we have even less options when it comes to our wake-up. We were NEVER worried about the FADC Shoryuken, we were worried about the fact that we have nothing to deal with meaty crouching attacks on wakeup. There is no way the Ryu match-up is even in ultra. None.

With all due respect, the only people that are p!ssed about these changes are the people that are maining him and have played him in countless games and in tournaments. You only have to look at Deejay forums online to see the negative backlash. We weren't asking for a god-tier verion of the chatacter, we were asking for a few changes to his obvious weaknesses.

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

It's fairly safe vs. a decent amount of the cast (Cody is the only character with which I can easily punish it consistently) and you can't exactly throw it if he throws it out at a range to beat your low forward though.

Guile can punish any sobat with any flash kick. At any range other than max Ryu can sweep as a reversal.

Aint Dee Jay's fault people don't know this stuff

Start your wake up pressure with a meaty cr mp for most shotos for example and Deejay has to take huge risks compared to the rest of the cast to really do anything.

Dreddybajs

FutureGuy wrote: »

What Doom said. You cannot spam LK Sobat, especially against someone that knows the match-up. It's punishable and now it's even more so.

It's actually less punishable now right? It's safer like. Unless you meant losing the low invincibility.

The MGU nerf is a complete joke. Deejay is not a zoning heavy character like Guile, he is supposed to be able to go offensive when the time is right and stay on the offensive. Now we have even less options when it comes to our wake-up. We were NEVER worried about the FADC Shoryuken, we were worried about the fact that we have nothing to deal with meaty crouching attacks on wakeup. There is no way the Ryu match-up is even in ultra. None.

Is it not faster and throw invincible now? It'll be better against meaty stuff and throws surely. I know it's more unsafe on block now, but it was unsafe anyway, so at least it's a better reversal option to go for now against players that could punish it either way.

With all due respect, the only people that are p!ssed about these changes are the people that are maining him and have played him in countless games and in tournaments. You only have to look at Deejay forums online to see the negative backlash. We weren't asking for a god-tier verion of the chatacter, we were asking for a few changes to his obvious weaknesses.

Shocker, players who main the character are pissed about nerfs to said character. :pac: I don't think he really deserved to be nerfed (even the mixed bag of buffs and nerfs that he got), but he seems like he'll be pretty much the same as he was before to me.

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Guile can punish any sobat with any flash kick. At any range other than max Ryu can sweep as a reversal.

Aint Dee Jay's fault people don't know this stuff

Start your wake up pressure with a meaty cr mp for most shotos for example and Deejay has to take huge risks compared to the rest of the cast to really do anything.

Yes, obviously Guile can flash kick reversal - he's one of the only characters in the game that can reliably punish moves like sobat cause of having a really far range fast reversal.

For the Ryu example, good luck reliably doing a reversal sweep on a -5 move - it's quite difficult to get that out consistently with no buffer on normal moves for reversal. Nothing to do with players not knowing it's unsafe, it's just for most characters it's quite difficult to punish.

edit: Whoops, double post

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

It's actually less punishable now right? It's safer like. Unless you meant losing the low invincibility.



Is it not faster and throw invincible now? It'll be better against meaty stuff and throws surely. I know it's more unsafe on block now, but it was unsafe anyway, so at least it's a better reversal option to go for now against players that could punish it either way.



Shocker, players who main the character are pissed about nerfs to said character. :pac: I don't think he really deserved to be nerfed (even the mixed baeg of buffs and nerfs that he got), but he seems like he'll be pretty much the same as he was before to me.

Personally I think if they're going out of the way to remove the idea of meter = safe wake up it's ok that Dee Jay loses his. to me the sobat nerf is pretty horrible, it's his one strong footsie tool (although, REALLY flawed, people don't realise how naff it can be in some matches) and now it's non functional, even if it's safe on block. You're going to have to counter poke with cr mk I guess now.

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Personally I think if they're going out of the way to remove the idea of meter = safe wake up it's ok that Dee Jay loses his. to me the sobat nerf is pretty horrible, it's his one strong footsie tool (although, REALLY flawed, people don't realise how naff it can be in some matches) and now it's non functional, even if it's safe on block. You're going to have to counter poke with cr mk I guess now.

That's kind of the character though, he's so strong at zoning that I feel like characters like Ryu should get to do well at the footsie game if they make it to that range. That's what SF is to me, characters winning at some ranges in a matchup, then it drastically changing once the spacing changes.

FWIW Dave was saying in IRC that he found st. mk to be a decent replacement for lk. sobat when he experimented with it, so maybe not all hope is lost!

FutureGuy

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Shocker, players who main the character are pissed about nerfs to said character. :pac: I don't think he really deserved to be nerfed (even the mixed bag of buffs and nerfs that he got), but he seems like he'll be pretty much the same as he was before to me.

Yes. Sh!t.

He was pretty much bottom tier in 2012. Capcom said they were balancing the cast. Not the case. Much better characters got some insane buffs.

I want to learn Decapre, this is just the shove I need.

Dreddybajs

No better time to give a new character a go whether your old one was improved or nerfed! I'm gonna try all the new characters out as well I think.

Doyler01

Those DJ changes are grand. Looks like they trying to make DJ players think a bit more. Jump knee to st mk is a sick buff. Hes still gonna be poo tier. What did you expect? Its DJ.

Play someone else if you don't like it?

I'm not loving the sound of Akuma. Preparing to jump ship unless hes top tier again. :cool:

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

That's kind of the character though, he's so strong at zoning that I feel like characters like Ryu should get to do well at the footsie game if they make it to that range. That's what SF is to me, characters winning at some ranges in a matchup, then it drastically changing once the spacing changes.

FWIW Dave was saying in IRC that he found st. mk to be a decent replacement for lk. sobat when he experimented with it, so maybe not all hope is lost!

When I'm doing footsies I indeed use st mk and cr mk, and max range cr hk.

I'll be trying most of the charge chars and poison, like the look of her!

Ramza

It doesn't matter how people twist it, the move is just way too good in it's current state

@DooM

It's virtually safe on block, -5 with pushback, no fast normals will reach it. And it's only going to be harder to punish now in Ultra Super or reversal normal is really the only realistic punish to it, in corner. The risk reward is so ridiculous on that move right now. As I was saying, when Ryu has Deejay cornered, cr.MK is the go to pressure tool for Ryu, Deejay can easily throw out lk sobat and blow up any poking or pressure from Ryu. The reward is so high and the risk is just so low. If Ryu stands at max (or close to) cr.MK range, and Deejay sobats, I'm pretty sure that's safe? And then at cr.MK range, it just blows you up. A reversal sweep is pretty damn hard, though the punish is there, if even extremely situational. I still think the move is far too good. Even off a sweep, you don't get much, a safejump setup gets you a little closer to Deejay, but then the risk reward basically resets after you apply some pressure and you're back in the danger zone where you can't poke or jump, and fireballs get easily dealt with at that range too. In Ultra this is even harder, as the delayed wakeup completely negates the fact that you pulled off a just frame punish on an unsafe move, that's just my personal gripe with delayed wakeup though.

I wouldn't say a lot of stuff beats it in theory, a well timed counter poke that has a mid level hitbox maybe. But I feel that if you're poking with cr.MP and crossing your fingers hoping to beat one sobat, you're fighting a losing battle. Stuffing one sobat doesn't do much neutral game, you push deejay out again, and you haven't gained any solid ground. But then it has to be so well timed, where as Deejay can throw that move out and 9/10 not worry. Walk up throw is a really lackluster option for Ryu, or any character, you can't just walk up and throw Deejay in the neutral/footsie game, or even in the corner. It's asking to be sobat/(insert reversal here) in corner, and midscreen, you have to respect the sobat even more, and his fireballs, so I don't agree with that point. You have to inch forward and try to control ground, and poke away, but you're not allowed to poke because the move is so ridiculous, it blows up any offense and pushes you back to square one if you even do manage to bait it out, and it's safe at that range. OP move, nerf was needed. Also to note, you have to also respect Deejay's slide in the neutral game, move is fantastic at certain ranges and is really strong in the Ryu matchup, I have no qualms with that move, but just stating for the record as Ryu really has to work so hard to get in on Deejay

OFC Guile can punish it, his reversal is insane, and easy. You just hit up and kick :pac: And even then, you can negative edge it and cover 4 options with EX, with Ryu it's a just frame, and it's really hard to identify the exact range. Fact of the matter is that the move is just too good. I do know that it's punishable, I'm just stating how virtually impossible it is to punish it in theory and how ridiculous the move is, it's just too strong. And I'm not talking about wakeup, I'm talking in footsies and during corner pressure, the move is just too strong for the reasons I mentioned above

@ FutureGuy

The move is not more punishable, it's safer on block making it a better pressure tool? You cannot justify complaining that it goes over lows, it's just too strong, for a move that fast and with that good a hitbox, going over lows makes no sense and is a great change on Capcom's part. In the Ryu matchup and a lot of matchups, it controls way too much space, it's practically unbeatable mid screen (unpunishable at ranges, unpokable).

Deejay can deal with meaty attacks with EX MGB, I'm 99% sure a perfectly timed meaty cr.MK will lose to that move, and cr.MK is the go to pressure on wakeup vs deejay. In general, the move has now gotten better? It's faster and throw invincible, so meaty cr.lk OS tech won't work vs it, so as a wakeup tool that move is now fantastic. As I said, the nerf on it is fine, it's already hard to punish outside of point blank range, a sweep is pretty much all you get at point blank (I'm not complaining :pac:), and that's only a minority of the cast. That buff is good, the nerf is completely fine IMO

As regards Ryu and the DP FADC, Ryu is definitely the aggressor in that MU, he is the one working the pressure and the one trying to get in while Deejay has an easy time controlling space with fireballs, sobats, not to mention his jumping knee is so powerful in that MU, and now it's even better? As the aggressor, in this MU getting is in an absolute nightmare, and even when you do get in, LK sobat demands way too much respect, his MK sobat (or is it HK?) is also insanely good and will put you back to square one, but that move is completely fine. Cornering Deejay feels like it yields little to no reward. Sometimes, a safejump into a walk forward DP FADC forward, is the only real option for applying pressure and trying to bait buttons/push Deejay to corner. Now it's -5, so a huge offense tool in general for shotos and particularly that MU has been completely negated. Also to note, in Ultra, landing that sweep punish will still land Ryu on the end of a mixup, cause delayed wakeup is there to save people who are bad at spacing their sobats, well done Capcom

To argue the MU will not stay the same, or to say it maybe won't even get better for Deejay, is wrong imo, it's still gonna be an uphill battle for Ryu, maybe even harder, so still a 6-4 matchup at best for Deejay

Ramza

Dreddybajs wrote: »

That's kind of the character though, he's so strong at zoning that I feel like characters like Ryu should get to do well at the footsie game if they make it to that range. That's what SF is to me, characters winning at some ranges in a matchup, then it drastically changing once the spacing changes

QFT, pretty much what I was trying to say in my post. It feels like Deejay just has too much power at that range where it should be at least even, or good for Ryu. It just kinda obscures that type of matchup IMO, but overall Deejay's changes seem grand like. I think his nerfs are justifiable, it's still gonna be good for him if not better in Ultra, sorry for double post

And regards trying new characters, gotta echo what dreddy said, should try em anyway regardless of nerfs/buffs to mains, from what I played in Cannes the new cast are hella fun, Rolento is great and so is poison, gonna definitely give those a try. SRY for double post

Doctor DooM

I'm not being smart Ramza, but I'd put money on AJ beating every single Dee Jay in the country at a ft5 with Ryu, including mine, and I'd bet against you.

And I'm not saying he's a better player than you.

bush

Deejay is poo. Level up ramza plz.

Jun_DP101

Dreddybajs wrote: »

That's kind of the character though, he's so strong at zoning that I feel like characters like Ryu should get to do well at the footsie game if they make it to that range.

Dee jay's zoning is pretty bad compared to every projectile char. The sobat nerf definitely made mus vs chars with strong low pokes a real pain.

Fergus_

Sakura's ex tatsu is still + on block

rekt

Ramza

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'm not being smart Ramza, but I'd put money on AJ beating every single Dee Jay in the country at a ft5 with Ryu, including mine, and I'd bet against you.

And I'm not saying he's a better player than you.

It's okay because it doesn't bother me :pac: I don't think this really has anything to do with the current discussion anyway, it still doesn't take away from my points of view or negate them in any way, just because I lose at the MU where someone else might do better.

Jun_DP101 wrote: »

Dee jay's zoning is pretty bad compared to every projectile char. The sobat nerf definitely made mus vs chars with strong low pokes a real pain.

Yes, but that's perfectly fine? I mean, poking characters are supposed to apply pressure at the ranges where zoning characters start to fall short (close/footsie range) His zoning is fine, he doesn't need the sobat in it's current form, it's just too strong. The slide, ex sobat, and his other pokes are completely fine tools to help combat and control space against pokes, the sobat is a giant ****ing troll move in AE. The MU itself is just a battle for Ryu, I have no qualm with the MU being hard, just the sobat is insult to injury, thank god it's gone. It should be a pain if you let me into that range, or if I corner you.

Deejays buffs are great, nerfs are fine, stop crying Deejay players, you have delayed wakeup now to save you anyway

Jun_DP101

Ramza wrote: »

The slide, ex sobat, and his other pokes are completely fine tools to help combat and control space against pokes

His what now?

Dee jay doesn't really have much tools to deal with characters in footsie range. That being said he's not a pure zoner, never was. His normals for the ground game are pretty bad. His sobat helped him alleviate pressure in the area where ppl can react jump fireballs/low poke imo.

Ramza wrote: »

I mean, poking characters are supposed to apply pressure at the ranges where zoning characters start to fall short

Besides Dhalsim I don't see where this statement applies to the zoning characters in this game.

Btw you play much yang in cannes? Really want to pick him up in Ultra. His st. lk seems gdlk