Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Because he's making the (valid) point that the article is poorly written and the writer himself brings up the mirror match thing (comparing a modern fighting game to SF1)?

Further I consider the point to be extremely valid as he's using the mirror match anecdote to point out that mechanics count as much if not more than balancing.

There's a difference between a mirror match in a game with multiple characters and a mirror match in a game where you have no choice but to play it like SF1 or Pong or whatever. And honestly even if Super Ryu mirror matches were the best mirror match of all time I doubt any of us would've stuck with SF4 long if it was the only matchup in the game.

Owwmykneecap

For future reference, this is what an anecdote is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjaDtj19PNc

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

There's a difference between a mirror match in a game with multiple characters and a mirror match in a game where you have no choice but to play it like SF1 or Pong or whatever. And honestly even if Super Ryu mirror matches were the best mirror match of all time I doubt any of us would've stuck with SF4 long if it was the only matchup in the game.

... yeah, that's why I said the original article is a bad one, because using a game like SF1 to say balance is not important is a really stupid redudcto ad absurdium argument.

unky chop chop

whats the story.
Is this released this month?
looking forward to it as i find AE the worst iteration of sf4 so far.
I dont want every one balanced
Just turn it back to vanilla please

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

... yeah, that's why I said the original article is a bad one, because using a game like SF1 to say balance is not important is a really stupid redudcto ad absurdium argument.

He's not saying that it's not important though, just that in and of itself balance doesn't make a game fun.

Azza

unky chop chop wrote:

whats the story.
Is this released this month?
looking forward to it as i find AE the worst iteration of sf4 so far.
I dont want every one balanced
Just turn it back to vanilla please

The 2012 update is released on Tuesday the 13th of December for consoles so just over 2 weeks to go. I think the PC version isn't getting the update until shortly after.

Its out in the arcades on December 3rd.

Capcom have also said they are posting up the full patch notes on November 30th so any changes not listed yet (if any) will be listed there.

Doctor DooM

unky chop chop wrote: »

whats the story.
Is this released this month?
looking forward to it as i find AE the worst iteration of sf4 so far.
I dont want every one balanced
Just turn it back to vanilla please

It's out the 13th of December. No one else thinks it's great either

Dreddybajs wrote: »

He's not saying that it's not important though, just that in and of itself balance doesn't make a game fun.

Dude, are you trolling here?

I'm not actually disagreeing with him, I don't think kneecap does either. I'm just saying it's a shoddy article with a stupid argument used to make a point most people agree with.

Dreddybajs

No, I'm not trolling. I don't think that it's a stupid argument, again I think you may be taking away from that part of it something which doesn't seem to me to be the intended point. Maybe that in itself makes it a shoddy article, I dunno.

the 1st hardter

http://static.capcom.com/streetfighter/downloads/SSFIV%20Arcade%20Edition%202012%20Final%20Change%20List%20-%20US.pdf

Final changes in PDF format

UberPrinny_Baal

the 1st hardter wrote: »

http://static.capcom.com/streetfighter/downloads/SSFIV%20Arcade%20Edition%202012%20Final%20Change%20List%20-%20US.pdf

Final changes in PDF format

I'm kind of underwhelmed with the final Deejay stuff...

Doctor DooM

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'm kind of underwhelmed with the final Deejay stuff...

Ditto for Guile.

The character changing nerf remains and he also effectively remains ultra-less.

Azza

I don't see how Guiles character has changed. He remains a defensive zone with fireballs character. Yes that strategy isn't as effective anymore, but its still his best strategy.

U2 is still usefull in fireball wars.

Dreddybajs

I would've thought you'd be fairly happy with those changes Doom - air throw is back to 3 frames, counterhit all the way through sonic boom is gone, and small (pretty much negligible admittedly) damage buffs. Thought the air throw and counterhit things were two of your main gripes?

Some really weird changes, like Gouken's super going from 11f startup to 3f, but overall the changes seem good. Yang got hit a bit too hard imo.

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I would've thought you'd be fairly happy with those changes Doom - air throw is back to 3 frames, counterhit all the way through sonic boom is gone, and small (pretty much negligible admittedly) damage buffs. Thought the air throw and counterhit things were two of your main gripes?

Some really weird changes, like Gouken's super going from 11f startup to 3f, but overall the changes seem good. Yang got hit a bit too hard imo.

You'd think that they reduced the throw range by half, too, which is what really hurts it.

They buffs he's got will make a bit of a difference but the nerfs which make him more difficult to play (big start up time on both ultras, no real damage combo use for an ultra, low meter building) are all still there. The counter hit nerf going is a v good thing though. With the couple of damage buffs it'll prob stop me feeling like I'm hitting my opponent twice as much as they're hitting me and still losing. But what I really wanted to hear since they announced a third round of changes for some chars (which Guile apparently never got) was a small buff to meter build off boom as being able to FADC my dangerous flash kicks was nice

I think the yang nerfs are mental, no point in creating the character just to destroy him.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

I don't see how Guiles character has changed. He remains a defensive zone with fireballs character. Yes that strategy isn't as effective anymore, but its still his best strategy.

U2 is still usefull in fireball wars.

Well, a huge part of the zoning game was the threat of a well timed EX boom and that's effectively gone without some form of minor meter buff. So his zoning game has changed.

U2 is nicknamed sonic refreshing breeze for a reason, too. Also, it's start up was hugely increased so it's actually pretty difficult to land in an FB war without guessing.

UberPrinny_Baal

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The counter hit nerf going is a v good thing though. With the couple of damage buffs it'll prob stop me feeling like I'm hitting my opponent twice as much as they're hitting me and still losing

It's gone from Deejay too, which is nice. I got counterhit murdered at the last Inferno.

Cancelling Super into Ultra 1 ("on the penultimate hit") sounds like silly fun. Although I can combo into super practically off a jump-in, and theoretically off a standing medium kick. I wonder how useful this will end up being.

I'm pretty happy to blow ultra 1 after an EX MGU for guaranteed damage, since I'm never going to land it on a careful opponent anyway.

Azza

Doctor Doom wrote:

Well, a huge part of the zoning game was the threat of a well timed EX boom and that's effectively gone without some form of minor meter buff. So his zoning game has changed.

U2 is nicknamed sonic refreshing breeze for a reason, too. Also, it's start up was hugely increased so it's actually pretty difficult to land in an FB war without guessing.

He is still zoning. It just takes longer to build meter for EX.Boom so he gets to use them less which makes the strategy less effective. But he still has limited offensive tools and limited mix up options so he's not going to be rushing down any more than he did in previous version.

Super U2 was abit too good and deserved nerfs. It was a nightmare for shoto's to deal with. Probably went a bit overboard with the start up time nerf though. Focus dash U2 still seems like a reasonable viable way of landing it in a fireball war.

UberPrinny_Baal

Azza wrote: »

Focus dash U2 still seems like a reasonable viable way of landing it in a fireball war.

I can confirm Doom has does this to me in this situation. :mad:

Azza

I was checking around about the Guile air throw range nerf. Capcom never mentioned it themsleves but according to the Japanese mook it was reduced from 1.25 to 1.07, which would mean it lost more than half its range and it has the second worst range for an air throw in the game. Having used Guile on occasion his air throw seemed fine to me. I found pictures of the hitbox from the AE air throw but I can't find ones from Super (they are on youtube but thats blocked at work for me).

Always thought it was absurd how good that move was. It beat virtually every if not all angled jump moves in the game. Sky was virtually a no fly zone.

ayjayirl

I'd have to agree that the air throw in Super was broken and I know Doom knows it. Some of the time it landed it seemed to almost teleport said victim. Its range was rightly reduced imo.

Question from ignorance. Ryu's new H.Dp.... Can some frame data nerd tell me if they think the new changes make it likely it will be a better wake up AA than the m.dp is in AE. From what I read it seems as though it might?

More important question: When is the first Apology edition tourney?

Dreddybajs

It'll be a good, high damage AA if you can land it deep on a jumpin, but you won't be able to FADC it so you'll have to be sure it's going to hit. I'd say it'll be a decent combo ender when you don't want to FADC ultra, though most Ryus end combos in tatsu anyway so I dunno how much use that'll be.

FutureGuy

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'm kind of underwhelmed with the final Deejay stuff...

All very meh changes. Will still be playing him but will use other characters for specific matchups.

Azza

It will be a better wake up than MP.DP when you don't have meter to cancel into ultra.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

He is still zoning. It just takes longer to build meter for EX.Boom so he gets to use them less which makes the strategy less effective. But he still has limited offensive tools and limited mix up options so he's not going to be rushing down any more than he did in previous version.

Super U2 was abit too good and deserved nerfs. It was a nightmare for shoto's to deal with. Probably went a bit overboard with the start up time nerf though. Focus dash U2 still seems like a reasonable viable way of landing it in a fireball war.

Not having access to ex booms in this way makes it much easier to zone Guile out for any character with a decent fireball. Some fights I can be a good 20-30 seconds trying to build a bar.

I know people think it probably should be this way in some cases, but that doesn't change the fact it's changed the character's fundamental make up since vanilla which annoys me a little. It was hilarious how Ryu players used to tell me Guile didn't win in fireball wars in vanilla yet the only ones who ever beat me were the ones who didn't try to.

Azza wrote: »

I was checking around about the Guile air throw range nerf. Capcom never mentioned it themsleves but according to the Japanese mook it was reduced from 1.25 to 1.07, which would mean it lost more than half its range and it has the second worst range for an air throw in the game. Having used Guile on occasion his air throw seemed fine to me. I found pictures of the hitbox from the AE air throw but I can't find ones from Super (they are on youtube but thats blocked at work for me).

Always thought it was absurd how good that move was. It beat virtually every if not all angled jump moves in the game. Sky was virtually a no fly zone.

I know it's not mentioned in the change logs but the old max range air throws simply do not work any more. Vega's beats guiles easily now.

I would be very suprised to hear that it was not nerfed.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I can confirm Doom has does this to me in this situation. :mad:

I have never once landed one of these, especially on Deejay, since AE came out. The only way I've gotten it to consistently work on even a shoto is take a trade (which is a PITA as it's such a low damage ultra now...)

K.O.Kiki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toHrBCYha1A

Doctor DooM

That's in arcade, not apology edition

... I assume U1 is going to be the ultra of choice for Deejays now?

Azza

Doctor Doom wrote:

Not having access to ex booms in this way makes it much easier to zone Guile out for any character with a decent fireball. Some fights I can be a good 20-30 seconds trying to build a bar.

His regular fireball should still be enough to go even in fireball wars with virtually any character. It also still has the advantage of the best recovery time in the game making Guile far less susceptible to jump ins than other fireball characters. And he can still zone none fireball characters extremely effectively as well.

Doctor Doom wrote:

I know people think it probably should be this way in some cases, but that doesn't change the fact it's changed the character's fundamental make up since vanilla which annoys me a little. It was hilarious how Ryu players used to tell me Guile didn't win in fireball wars in vanilla yet the only ones who ever beat me were the ones who didn't try to

A fundamental change for a character would be changing him/her from a defensive zoning character, to an offesive rush down based character or changing to a grappler playstyle. Guile is still a defensive zoning character. Guiles zoning game hasn't reached the tipping point for players to stop trying to zone with him and switch to a more offensive strategy.

I was also under the impression that Guile lost fireball wars in vanilla, due to the slower charge of Sonic Booms. If he lost the life lead it was much harder for him to claw it back in a fireball war and force his opponent on to him. On top of that in all versions of SF4 Guiles always had a rubbish wake up game, so once you got in on him, you could do some good damage. Ryu in particular as he an easy safe jump set up from sweep.

Doctor Doom wrote:

I have never once landed one of these, especially on Deejay, since AE came out. The only way I've gotten it to consistently work on even a shoto is take a trade (which is a PITA as it's such a low damage ultra now...)

Dee Jay has quite fast recovery on fireballs. Against people with average fireball recovery like Chun, Ryu, Akuma, Ken, Sagat, Rose, Sakura, Oni, Evil Ryu it would be more effective.

chopperbyrne

Honda's changes are good.

Jab headbutt is back and Strong has ten frames of fireball invincibility on startup and some lower body invincibility.

UberPrinny_Baal

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toHrBCYha1A

Doctor DooM wrote: »

That's in arcade, not apology edition

... I assume U1 is going to be the ultra of choice for Deejays now?

I haven't been to the SRK forums since the early days AE being in the arcades only, but the Deejay players there look down on anyone using U1 instead of U2.

The thing that makes the linked video difficult is that all those combos into U1 are character specific.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I have never once landed one of these, especially on Deejay

Oh, I might be wrong then. It would probably be in still be in replays if you did. Haven't played much online since then I think.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

A fundamental change for a character would be changing him/her from a defensive zoning character, to an offesive rush down based character or changing to a grappler playstyle. Guile is still a defensive zoning character. Guiles zoning game hasn't reached the tipping point for players to stop trying to zone with him and switch to a more offensive strategy.

I was also under the impression that Guile lost fireball wars in vanilla, due to the slower charge of Sonic Booms. If he lost the life lead it was much harder for him to claw it back in a fireball war and force his opponent on to him. On top of that in all versions of SF4 Guiles always had a rubbish wake up game, so once you got in on him, you could do some good damage. Ryu in particular as he an easy safe jump set up from sweep.



Dee Jay has quite fast recovery on fireballs. Against people with average fireball recovery like Chun, Ryu, Akuma, Ken, Sagat, Rose, Sakura, Oni, Evil Ryu it would be more effective.

Ok, we're in a semantic arguments here, you're right. It's not a major character changing thing. However, I think Capcom are hamfistedly trying to get Guile to be more mix up oriented with the UDK buffs- a meaty one will be invulnerable to pretty much everything but a reversal now, will stuff any tech or throw attempt (including probably counter hitting cr late os tech) and the potential for damage is huge off of it.

Common wisdom was Guile lost fireball wars in Vanilla, and maybe it's down to the quality of competition in Ireland that I never did, but I never did. EX boom just always kept you ahead of the game. I'm not claiming this is because I am some form of zoning god. Even compared to ourselves now we weren't exactly fighting game legends back then I think only Mike used the safe jump set up on me with any regularity. Of course, it's all different now, because lots of people are actually trying to learn how to play fighting games.

Super guile owned shotos too much though in super it's true. they lost at full range, where scared of the back fistat mid screen and if guile had ultra they were boned. I reasonably don't think I am going to get that Guile back but I hope these buffs will make him more competitive than my gut instinct says they will.