National Postcodes to be introduced

recedite

It seems like your proposal is to make a location app such as "point8" automatic on all smart phones. Nobody is going to argue with that.

my3cents wrote: »

.. some over thought out code.

ukoda wrote: »

seriously the general public are not going to give a flying hoot about any of this adjacency nonsense ...

It worries me when people assume that "the general public" are a bunch of morons who will happily settle for an expensive crock of $hit when they could have had something properly thought out instead, and for less cost.

I'm not saying that we are going to see riots in the streets over this, but that doesn't mean everyone is happy that they have been shafted yet again.

tvc15

recedite wrote: »

... will happily settle for an expensive crock of $hit when they could have had something properly thought out instead, and for less cost.

What option had less cost? How much would the government have saved?

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

My post was to show how backward the idea of opening the point8 app and getting a location before calling 112 is, it's a step in the wrong direction for the emergency services. Both need a smartphone but my suggestion is 100 times better.

And let's be realistic, a vast majority of people have smartphones so it's stil a good idea. And as also another user pointed out, location can be sent via sms.

Agree with this. The notion of needing to find a code in an emergency off your phone or satnav is becoming fast redundant with the way technology is going. TomTom already have an instantly visible location code on their satnavs and I'm not sure how much that is being used by anyone in an emergency. The ability to transmit automatically the location of the co-ordinates via phone - landline/mobile - will become the norm - using codes of whatever nature to do this indirectly are rapidly becoming outdated with technology. Having a database of fixed locations/addresses with these already pre-loaded into it would give reduced room for communication error by the person calling in the emergency who's possibly injured, under stress, etc. If it's a car accident at a non-address, then the advent of the black boxes that they're looking to install in cars that would transmit location automatically would be a safer bet long-term. The majority of car accidents occur between the hours of 8pm and 8am, so having to factor elements such as night-time, poor lighting, injury, stress, poor GPS signal, possible consumption alcohol or drugs, etc into a person having to first discover a code that represents their location and then tell it is dodgy. The location codes are a nice idea, but their application in the context of a real emergency is fraught with potential errors - human and technical. Loc8, Go Code, Open, etc might seem like a good idea right now, but I reckon they'll be redundant for this particular purpose within a short period of time.

recedite

tvc15 wrote: »

What option had less cost?

See # 19 here
Each corporate user would still have their own costs. For example the Revenue Commissioners and Irish Water would have to ensure that each house was registered with one single "official govt. usage" code for the purposes of property tax and water charges.
ESB and Eircom, bus Eireann would change the unique ID reference numbers already labelled on their poles and bus stops over to the new national system.
This would make them useful as landmarks for the public when reporting an incident, or just to meet up with someone.
There is no need for the state to pay Capita to maintain a database of all instances of the code, which seems to account for a lot of the costs.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

It seems like your proposal is to make a location app such as "point8" automatic on all smart phones. Nobody is going to argue with that.

no thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the phone itself is aware of your location and that the ability to send its location while calling the emergency services should be built into the phones features in the OS. I'm saying the need to open a separate app, generate a code, remember that code, then repeat it over the phone to someone is redundant and backward.

TheBustedFlush

ukoda wrote: »

no thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the phone itself is aware of your location and that the ability to send its location while calling the emergency services should be built into the phones features in the OS. I'm saying the need to open a separate app, generate a code, remember that code, then repeat it over the phone to someone is redundant and backward.

Exactly. Using an app (that you have to pay for and download) to generate a code that represents the co-ordinates is an unnecessary step. The maps function on a number of phones already has this facility to show where you are - can't be that difficult to build it in, particularly since they have the feature for emergency calls on a call even if its screen is locked.

my3cents

I don't have a smart phone and most of my neighbors don't have one although most of their kids do.

It will be at another generation before we can make the assumption that the majority have and CAN USE smart phones.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

See # 19 here
Each corporate user would still have their own costs. For example the Revenue Commissioners and Irish Water would have to ensure that each house was registered with one single "official govt. usage" code for the purposes of property tax and water charges.
ESB and Eircom, bus Eireann would change the unique ID reference numbers already labelled on their poles and bus stops over to the new national system.
This would make them useful as landmarks for the public when reporting an incident, or just to meet up with someone.
There is no need for the state to pay Capita to maintain a database of all instances of the code, which seems to account for a lot of the costs.

But if that's what the Govt wants, it doesn't really matter whether the code is free or not - it only represents about 2% of the overall cost over the ten years. If they used a location code that converts coordinates to codes - Loc8, Go Code or Open for example - then they'd still have to licence GeoDirectory, still have to create a central database for all Govt departments, clean and code all of those, issue official codes for each address, run a public info campaign to let people know about it, and then maintain the database over the subsequent years to ensure the official codes are accurate. Portraying the state's only possible use to Revenue and water charges is facile since it would be used for a whole range of other purposes as well. Businesses would also want to avail of the code and the database for updating their own databases to drive consistency of information.

ukoda

my3cents wrote: »

I don't have a smart phone and most of my neighbors don't have one although most of their kids do.

It will be at another generation before we can make the assumption that the majority have and CAN USE smart phones.

1.6 million people in Ireland use a smart phone, its already a majority (when you exclude those who can't own a phone)

when you say "CAN USE" all they would need to do is dial 112. if they can't handle that then they shouldn't have any kind of phone at all.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/over-16m-irish-people-now-use-smartphones-229121.html

EDIT: just to note the 1.6 million figure is almost a year old, so its going to be even higher now

TheBustedFlush

my3cents wrote: »

I don't have a smart phone and most of my neighbors don't have one although most of their kids do.

It will be at another generation before we can make the assumption that the majority have and CAN USE smart phones.

Another generation? I doubt that. Not in this country which is in love with the mobile phone.....

Edit: See above post and link - didn't know the figures but doesn't surprise me.

ukoda

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Another generation? I doubt that. Not in this country which is in love with the mobile phone.....

Edit: See above post and link - didn't know the figures but doesn't surprise me.

you can also look up vodafones stats, 61% of their phone base is a smartphone user, and this is rapidly growing

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's amazing how you can write so much and make no clear point.

As has already been noted, passing location based data to emergency services can be done fairly easily with some cooperation of parties involved.

The point im making is - Loc8 is not a good solution to aiding emergency services calls in unfamiliar areas.

Sending cell tower data to the emergency services has been used for years in the US. What I am proposing is using the Phones location services (Which is a mix of GPS chip, cell tower and wifi if available) to transmit the phones location to emergency services

The FCC in the US are pushing hard for the telecoms company's involved to send location data more accurately, The EU Is currently reviewing the use of E-GNSS combined with Galileo sats for 112 calls

The future of emergency services knowing your location IS NOT a postcode of any shape or form.

If you want to know the future of emergency services easily finding you... Have a read of this http://www.gsa.europa.eu/news/how-enable-better-location-emergency-calls-galileo-and-112

It's called E112, and the U.S. already has a similar program in place.

this is the modern solution for emergency services. not Loc8code

A trial project currently underway is using a smartphone capable of recognising when an emergency call is made, which causes it to activate GNSS and Wi-Fi to collect location data. The data is then sent as a SMS text to the emergency number where it is verified and correlated with the emergency call. The trial has shown good results in urban, rural and domestic environments, including use in a moving vehicle.

Results like these have convinced Thales Alenia Space’s Bruno Gagnou that GNSS is the right answer for E112 positioning. “The technology is reliable and accurate,” he said. “With obvious benefits for society, lives will be saved, the security of citizens enhanced, and European industry will be supported.”

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

because its fricking awkward, completely user unfriendly and generally an outdated solution that no one will use.

Please read the article i linked to.

and if the ES think Loc8 is so great and can save lives. then why not team up with them and launch a national awareness marketing campaign to promote it as a life saving service? Loc8 has been around for 4 years now and they've had plenty of time to get up off their butts and market it, but no they used it for their own purposes (haulage) and did F all else with it in 4 years. and now they are complaining the government didn't hand them a contract for the national postcode. well the reason for that is simple. Loc8 is useless as a national postcode.

im sick to death of listening to the loc8 code promoters completely miss the point that a national postcode needs a database behind it if its to be used for anything more than sending a truck to my house.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

mobile phone manufactures allow any 3 third party access the location services of their device once the user grants permission. go have a look at the location services menu of your phone. what an incredibly weak thing to focus on.

and no i don't agree that its "job done" with Loc8code, i would say its a half arsed attempt thats doomed to fail given its awkwardness.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

and now 2 years later after this pilot....nothing has come of it and still 99% of the population have no idea what a loc8code is and no other local authority has adopted them, thats a real success story alright sigh...

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

nope, why don't you tell me how many used it?


(and just so we are clear, i never claimed no one used it, i claimed the general public still don't know about it and no other authority adopted loc8codes for this purpose, so it did not become the 'norm' and was not adopted national as the standard, read what I'm actually saying)

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

a65b2cd

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So where are we at? There appears to be three main proposals and the one each person prefers really depends on the problem they are trying to solve!

1. Give every address point a unique text address. This approach solves the difficulties caused by non-unique address points in a direct manner but it involves a change to at least one-third of existing addresses. This solution would be useful for both finding an address and for delivering post to it but there are concerns around public opposition to changes in existing addresses. It tries to anticipate new buildings by using distance from junctions etc. to number locations.

2. Eircode has been designed primarily as a postcode. The source file is a register of address points. There will be important benefits such as a more complete and structured register of addresses. Amendments could be made to any incorrect X/Y coordinates associated with these addresses without having an impact on the related Eircode. This approach requires a relatively small change to the existing situation i.e. adding an Eircode as the last line of your address. It avoids anticipating new buildings by not allocating sequential codes to the existing stock of buildings.

3. Use modern navigation technology to create a location code based on X/Y coordinates. It does not require a text address and is not designed to improve routine delivery of mail. Hence it does not set out to associate only one code to each postal address point. It can be used to identify any location not just an address. It can easily accommodate new buildings.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

how can you claim its working if you've absolutely no idea if anyone is using it?!

the point i made in my previous post stands. no other authority adopted it and it did not become the norm or used nationally.

I maintain Loc8 is not a good solution for use in emergency situations and I've already shown the better alternative that the EU is working on (which has nothing to do with postcodes)

i have never claimed eircode is any better than Loc8 in this scenario. Eircode will help with rural house call outs, it will not help with the "I'm in the middle of joe murphy's field" type calls - the location aware call to 112 is the solution here.

Also, i have never claimed eircode won the contract because it can help the ES.... i don't think anyone on this thread has claimed that!

All I'm saying is, eircode serves the purpose as a national postcode, i refute people claiming Loc8 is the modern solution that should have been chosen because it helps the ES, i think this idea of opening the Point8 app, generating a code, remembering the code, repeating the code to an operator is ridiculous and looks completely redundant when you look at E112 as a real solution.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

(and just so we are clear, i never claimed no one used it, i claimed the general public still don't know about it and no other authority adopted loc8codes for this purpose, so it did not become the 'norm' and was not adopted national as the standard, read what I'm actually saying)

Loc8 was not adopted as the national standard, it was not even considered during the tendering process, which process was slammed by the EU for failing to facilitate indigenous SME's.

Most Irish people do not use any "postcode", they never have. But they will use whichever one is adopted by the state as the national standard, even if it is a crock of $hit. That's because the state will spend taxpayers money promoting it, and will require it to be used when paying the Property Tax.
If even a small minority of people (and state agencies) are using loc8, despite it having no official endorsement, and no state funding, they must be using it because it is an elegant solution with a real and ongoing utility.
This genuine utility is something eircode does not have. Its take up by the public will be based only on compulsion and state subsidies.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

A quick Google already shows me 3 prominent authorities using Loc8

SDCC: http://www.sdcc.ie/the-council/about-us/customer-care/directions
Laois CoCo: http://www.laois.ie/contactus/
HSE: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/hospitals/ulh/ennis/

You do realise in the example of the life-bouys... know one needs to know anything about Loc8 until the ES ask... "whats the Loc8 on that life-bouy" = location delivered


Otherwise, I'm not going back into e112/e911. The concept is what the ES need, no doubt, but I won't think about it again until I see it working. That is a long way off and it might never happen - both you and me know that


Finally, Point8 was designed so people could generate and navigate to Loc8 codes on the fly. If the ES joined with Loc8... Point8 would be replaced with something designed specifically for the task. Jeez

Those authorities were already using it. As I said no one else has adopted it in 2 years and it hasn't been widely used at all

And exactly, people don't need to know about loc8 to read them from a bouy. (They may as well have put markers on them like the motorways, loc8 added no extra value) Which is far different to generating their own on the fly via an app. Which is what I claim is awkward and will never take off

E112 is the modern solution for ES and it will take off. Loc8 is like an awkward solution that has so many inherent problems to be effective.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 was not adopted as the national standard, it was not even considered during the tendering process, which process was slammed by the EU for failing to facilitate indigenous SME's.

I'm not talking about it being adopted as the national standard for postcodes. I was referring to it being adopted as the national standard for all bouys in Ireland and by all local authority's for its life saving abilities?

People used loc8 because there was no alternative. But not to take away from loc8 it is a very good navigation code. I just feel it's not suitable as a national postcode.

tvc15

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 was not adopted as the national standard, it was not even considered during the tendering process, which process was slammed by the EU for failing to facilitate indigenous SME's.

Most Irish people do not use any "postcode", they never have. But they will use whichever one is adopted by the state as the national standard, even if it is a crock of $hit. That's because the state will spend taxpayers money promoting it, and will require it to be used when paying the Property Tax.
If even a small minority of people (and state agencies) are using loc8, despite it having no official endorsement, and no state funding, they must be using it because it is an elegant solution with a real and ongoing utility.
This genuine utility is something eircode does not have. Its take up by the public will be based only on compulsion and state subsidies.

I would largely agree with this other than take up only based on compulsion. My main hope for Eircode is easier delivery of takeaway food to my address! That's based not on government compulsion but on the fact that its a national postcode and more likely to be used

Curly Judge

At the meeting yesterday on Pearse St. one of the interesting little snippet let slip by John Duggan, who spoke for Eircode, was that P.A Consultants had got the gig to provide oversight to the implementation of the postcode contract.
This was supposed to go for tender but they appear to have been appointed without any tender process being entered into.
Add to that the fact that PA Consultants and their senior staff have been head neck and heels involved in fashioning the whole structure and set up of the post code project.
So....effectively, they will be pronouncing on their own work and competence.
Can anyone give a guess at what conclusion they will come to?