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Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression
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forget about VAT on regulated ganja , there is a massive black hole sucking money out of the economy ,and it goes to international banks / or bigger dealers in a different country(the vast majority is imported) ,
lets take a look real quick just how much (serious under estimates) - since 20ish % (supposedly 21%)of the irish population have/do smoke this herb (892,000 people-100%)
we'll assume that 5% smoke daily and spend 50e every 2 days
25% smoke weekly and spend 50e
and 20% spend 50e a year
the remaining 50 % are too old and have givin up or scab from friends and family or buy of an irish grower either way they dont pay "criminals"(gangs who have international sources)
so the 5% (44,600) pay 406,975,000!
the 25% (223,000) pay 579,800,000!
and the 20%(178,400) pay 8,920,000
all in all thats 995,695,000 (extreme under estimate) , how many coffey shops ,and cannabis cultivators could that employ? not to mention give the garad a raise and reduce the working hours,cut the cost of the budget(cannabis is 50% of all drug busts)
also money saved by the wider society by :....
-seperating tabacco and cannabis(smoking cannabis prevents lung cancer?)(google the exact phrase look for donald tashkins study)
-cannabis can cure cancer(google)
-reduce criminal damage that occurs as a result of alienation from wider society
-health problems due to impurities like opium and soil in hash , silica,glass and krack cocaine in the herbal form
-reduce mental health problems( strains with very high levels of thc sacrifice cbd to achieve this),cbd is the anti psycotic cannabinoid ,in a open market people could choose what ever they wanted ,hash contains on average more cbd and cbn to thc ,producing a groggy sleepy stone , i assume high cbn and nicotine is responsible for most green /white puking episodes
-not to forget the youth who would become fruitful members of society had they not strayed outside the box and became a black market entrepenure and strayed down that path all the way to an overcrowed cell
all in all its at least the entire garda budget saved and kept in the economy
can any body add to savings or shoot a hole in it?0 -
"no right whatsoever"?O'Coonassa wrote: »I've not been following this thread and haven't read it so apologies if I'm repeating yourself.
Ireland has no right whatsoever in law to legalise cannabis.
Cannabis Sativa and its cultivars are strictly illegal under International Law.
End of story. That is all.
The UN is not a dictatorship.
And in fact, with countries such as Portugal and Mexico decriminalizing possession of small quantities of drugs, the UN is actually supporting decriminalization policies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/un-backs-drug-decriminali_n_220013.html0 -
Your idea of what "strictly illegal" is very, very different from mine so.O'Coonassa wrote: »In answer to your question it's decriminalised not legalised.
You will see a few countries here where it is marked as legal here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country
I know in 2008 a bill was proposed in Mexico to legalize it with intention of commerce.
There were also proposals in California http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana_Control,_Regulation,_and_Education_Act
I don't understand why it even went to any commitee if some "international law" would not allow it in the first place.California Assembly Bill 390, (A.B. 390), known as the Marijuana Control, Regulation, and Education Act, is the first bill ever introduced to regulate the sale and use of marijuana in the U.S. state of California.[1] If passed and signed into law, marijuana would be sold and taxed openly to adults age 21 and older in California. Tom Ammiano, a Democrat representing California's 13th State Assembly district, introduced this piece of legislation on February 23, 2009,[2] claiming the bill will "tax and regulate marijuana in a manner similar to alcohol".[3][4] As introduced, this proposal is estimated to raise over $1 billion in annual revenue by taxing the retail production and sale of marijuana for adults 21 years of age and older. To obtain a commercial grow license one would pay an initial $5,000 fee, then a $2,500 fee each year after that. A tariff of $50 per ounce would also be placed on all sold and grown marijuana.[1][5] The bill has gained much media attention, state wide and nationally.[6]
The bill was not approved by the Health Committee before a January 15 deadline, effectively killing the bill unless it is reintroduced this year and the process started over0 -
O'Coonassa wrote: »I've not been following this thread and haven't read it so apologies if I'm repeating yourself.
Ireland has no right whatsoever in law to legalise cannabis.
Cannabis Sativa and its cultivars are strictly illegal under International Law.
End of story. That is all.
International Law is not binding on this State. Our Constitutional framework only provides for binding European Communities Law.
Ireland was an early signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, yet when the convention itself was cited in court cases such as Norris v Attorney General [1985], the Supreme Court rejected any contention that an international agreement was binding in Irish Law.
It is not within the remit of any international organisation to overrule any measure a state determines to be responsible social policy. Once fundamental rights as enunciated under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are respected.
Any other multilateral agreements outside of economic agreements hold only persuasive, guiding authority.
Don't be naive, governments and states tend to do what they want when they want, and the courts will back them once Constitutionally permissible.
It would NEVER be contended that legalising cannabis could be unconstitutional.0 -
there is only one option for dealing with recreational cannabis in a free democratic society ,not prohibition ,not decriminalisation ,not "legalisation" its called regulation ,sumthin like...
growers must have permits ,related to size a 10 plants ,b 25 ,and c 50 , the "grow site " must be known as does the grower and he must have an agreement with a retailer (cafe)inc price,quantity ,strain ,method of cultivation and estimated harvest time ,and be registered to a single retailer ,
amsterdam is a joke ,a bad joke ,all "growers" are illegal ,it is completely unregulated , thats why the hash still has plastic in it
cafes must have members not customers ,who hold a card ,and who agree to terms and conditions ie, no getting minors stoned ,understands health problems ,no smoking on buses or on STREETS(parks should be ok) etc
with a card system it gets rid of drug tourism ,lets say your card comes in the post after a week , and you must be living in ireland for 2 weeks as a condition
the cafe must test each batch ,and give details like the cannibinoid profile ,strain ,harvest date grower (trade name) method of cultivation etc
the garda can raid/inspect the permited growers , search for guns and real drugs like whisky or heroin ,makes the job a lot easier for the poor aul garda ,they do their best to hold irish society together but prohibition has it rotting at the core,and they cant make law ,but they do have the responsiblity to oppose and expose discriminatory laws ,....that could work
this would more or less sort out or reduce every problem associated with cannabis from gangs to metal health
also some food for thought ,...cannabis is not an intoxicant ,it does not cause intoxication ,that would impliy that it is toxic ,no part of the plant is toxic to a human ,its ...somthing else, somehow this plant has produced a molecule so similar to one produced in our brain that it fits in your CANNABINOID recepter , thats like walking up to a random house with a random key you found in the pub and it opens the door ....proof of a divine orcistrator if i ever heard an argument for one ,
and considering all this about the bible and cannabis and calamus ,not to mention the first page where it states "i give unto you all the seed baring herbs to use" , id say any christian in ireland has their god given right to smoke ,eat or drink cannabis protected under the irish constitution ,their right to religious freedom ,and also the basic human right to freedom of religion , technically any conviction of a cannabis consuming christian (who has corrected their king james version,calamus is apparently kaneh bosum(hebrew)and was misstranslated through greek to fragent cane and then to calamus, or so says a polish lady) is not only unconstitutional but breaks international law, or am i wrong?or is this a matter of opinon,in which case there is no wrong or right? just interpretation of information0 -
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O'Coonassa wrote: »
You should also note that the United Nations possesses no resources or authority to enforce any anti-narcotic resolutions.0 -
There were also proposals in California http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana_Control,_Regulation,_and_Education_Act
I don't understand why it even went to any commitee if some "international law" would not allow it in the first place.
No other State in the developed west has shown as blatant a disregard for the United Nations and its resolutions. You must only look to the very recent past to see just how much weight the authority of the United Nations holds in the eyes of the United States government.
Don't take this clarification to mean that I believe the United Nations Conventions regarding narcotics has any value, I see it as just another fossil from the Reaganite administration and it's never ending "War on Drugs" that has yet to begin winning any significant battles.0 -
Herbal Deity wrote: »"no right whatsoever"?
The UN is not a dictatorship.
And in fact, with countries such as Portugal and Mexico decriminalizing possession of small quantities of drugs, the UN is actually supporting decriminalization policies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/un-backs-drug-decriminali_n_220013.html
Hmmmm.. That asshole Antonio Maria Costa heads the UN office on drugs and crime. I saw him debate drug legalisation in LSE. You want potential anti-libertarian, nanny state, dictatorships? He is your man. If you are interested you should read some the transcripts from his talks. He has a habit of ignoring peer reviewed sociological and health studies that suggest attempts to curb drug use have failed miserably over the past 40 years. He was quiet like an evangelical Christian, with his blind vigorous refusal to engage with rational alternatives to total prohibition.
I think perhaps he is just afraid of losing his significant salary and funding.
Must be great to be paid for failure.0 -
is that an answer?So what?
Its popular here with teenagers and here they grow out of it in their 20's. do you not see the irony that two countries with different laws have the same trend regardless.True, but it will make it available to a much larger group of people and thus consumption as a whole will go up dramatically, especially in the first few years and among young people for ever (It is very popular with teenagers in Holland but they do grow out of it in the 20s)
I have no illusions about the character of these people, however the act of dealing dope hurts no-one. If they are violent men then the Gardai should imprison them for acts of violence.Mostly agree, but many street dealers are scum and not the jovial tree hugger that people may think
Its not about how much we make its about streamlining process in the way Ireland does business and is ran. Its the streamlining that will help us not the amount earnt of a cannabis tax which will be minimal I agree.How much money could it make?
Assume everyone who smokes tobacco will smoke cannabis (23% of population). Assume they smoke on average two a week (100 a year). Tax a joint at a quid a go. Thats gives the government €100m a year.
The tax you mentioned will go to the regulation and policing costs.Add the huge cost in regulation and policing that will still have to be there, cost unknown.0 -
lets start with the cons of use (of pure herbal smoked cannabis)
-heavy use can impair the deveopment of the brain in youngsters most notably the developing cannabiniod recepters,resulting in a slightly smaller frontal lobe.
-it can irritate the lungs ,but it is unlikely to cause cancer(providing no tabacco is involved).
-it encourages a mentality unsuiting to a consumer society,and can exacerbate lazyness (but would probably suit farmers or hunter gatherers)
-may encorage a excape oriented mentality instead of confronting problems in life(smoke to forget).
-cannabis can exacerbate various sorts of mental illness (not all).
-cannabis with a unaturally high thc>cbd ratio may cause various metal illness if heavily used.
-it slows reaction time and impairs cognitive skills to some degree.
-it reduces sensitivity to pain which in certain circumstances can have negative results(most commenly nasty blisters).
-it may provoke an allergic reaction allthough this remains unverified and unlikely.
-It causes an enzyme "switch" which effects short term memory though it will "switch" back to normal after use has ceased(this may be disirable under certain circumstances, much less dangerous than "drowning your sorrows")
now the cons of cannabis prohibition
-in practice makes cannabis available to minors.
-creates a black market (takes money from the economy).
-creates a negitive social setting for consumption and retail.
-does not allow for quality control.
-increases the instance of mental illness by attaching the threat of arrest and prosecution(validating parinoia!).
-popular culture encourages consumption with tabacco(polydrug use)
-creates the two gate way effects ,through contact with polydrug dealers and the "well if they were wrong about cannabis i wonder how wrong they got it with the other stuff" mentality.
-violent compitition between gangs and violent debt collection.
-encourages a "f**k the garda mentality" leading to various other activities.
-turns the "out side the box thinkers" to sit in a shed instead of engaging in wider society,and as a result encourages waste of potential.
now some of the pros of cannabis use
-encourages socialising.
-builds self confidence.
-allows for greater appreciation of music.
-inspires creativity(cannabinoid profile willing)
-may reduce the instance of cancer of the lung, upper airwaves, and esophagus(cancer prevention?).
-may reduce various other forms of cancer ,though this is unlikely to be achieved solely through smoking(but as the main cancer fighting molecule thc builds up in bodily fats ,it may reduce instance of brain tumers as the brain is mostly fat, but probably only in heavy users, more research is needed but plenty is available through your prefered search engine).
-cleans the lungs of infrequent users by inducing coughing?.
-has many ,many medicinal uses.
-involves those willing to embrace ,with a global cultural identity ,including religion ,music and philosophy
-builds a fundamental appreciation for the more "tradional" life style of living simlply and in sync with ones "natural" enviornment.
-encourages a love of botany.
-helps with various mental illnesses(not all)
-contrary to popular belief cannabis does not kill brain cells ,it in fact promotes nerve growth and protects nerves (for example a receiding brain tumer),the reason for this belief was "tabacco style research" where monkey were sufficated with cannabis smoke ,via a gas mask every day ,and as a result of oxygen deprivation suffered massive brain damage,thank you ronald reagan.
-and in general promotes "a cant we just get along mentality"
and finally the pros of prohibition
-creates a counter culture that some enjoy and prosper in.
-encourages closely woven family and friend based markets .
-encreases spending on the justice system,creating employment.
-increases the choice of drugs a cannabis user can access .
-makes cannabis available to minors (minors consider this a pro)
-makes weapons available(what if ireland needed a popular revolt?)
-gives meaning to the lives of anti drug lobbyist and goup members(whom with out cannabis wouldnt have such a big "drug problem" to complain about,though in ireland there is a huge heroin problem ,there are more known heroin addicts in the greater dublin region than gardi in the country ,so this point maybe invalid).
-makes ireland part of a global crusade (its nice to be in the club makes you fell normal)
-keeps the gardai nice and busy ,and they always have somthing to show off (if only it was a pay rise and reduced hours!)
-generates employment in "poor countrys".
-makes good news
-makes good movies
-creates massive international beuracracys(generating employment)
-provides a mentality that some people are just plain sub human and their right dont count,therefore making political partys like neo-nazis and the BNP more acceptable,and providing the necessary enforcement resources to fufill their goals(hey i dont but im sure they like the idea)
-it also provides tax free employment to countless numbers of urban agriculturalists( possibly reducing dole ques!)
-reduce the need for a pension in the general populus?ANYONE can grow and sell cannabis the market is to massive to miss,and all nessecary materials can be purchased online and delivered right to your front door!
-and its always handy to have somthing nice a visible to worry about in society ,to take your mind off the fluoride in the drinking water, mercury in your fillings and the fact you cant see the stars anymore because of all that damm orange light ,, we should get motion sensors on those things ,it would save a lot of money and help the gardai chase after criminals with a head start0 -
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lets start with the cons of use (of pure herbal smoked cannabis)
-heavy use can impair the deveopment of the brain in youngsters most notably the developing cannabiniod recepters,resulting in a slightly smaller frontal lobe.
-it can irritate the lungs ,but it is unlikely to cause cancer(providing no tabacco is involved).
-it encourages a mentality unsuiting to a consumer society,and can exacerbate lazyness (but would probably suit farmers or hunter gatherers)
-may encorage a excape oriented mentality instead of confronting problems in life(smoke to forget).
-cannabis can exacerbate various sorts of mental illness (not all).
-cannabis with a unaturally high thc>cbd ratio may cause various metal illness if heavily used.
-it slows reaction time and impairs cognitive skills to some degree.
-it reduces sensitivity to pain which in certain circumstances can have negative results(most commenly nasty blisters).
-it may provoke an allergic reaction allthough this remains unverified and unlikely.
-It causes an enzyme "switch" which effects short term memory though it will "switch" back to normal after use has ceased(this may be disirable under certain circumstances, much less dangerous than "drowning your sorrows")
now the cons of cannabis prohibition
-in practice makes cannabis available to minors.
-creates a black market (takes money from the economy).
-creates a negitive social setting for consumption and retail.
-does not allow for quality control.
-increases the instance of mental illness by attaching the threat of arrest and prosecution(validating parinoia!).
-popular culture encourages consumption with tabacco(polydrug use)
-creates the two gate way effects ,through contact with polydrug dealers and the "well if they were wrong about cannabis i wonder how wrong they got it with the other stuff" mentality.
-violent compitition between gangs and violent debt collection.
-encourages a "f**k the garda mentality" leading to various other activities.
-turns the "out side the box thinkers" to sit in a shed instead of engaging in wider society,and as a result encourages waste of potential.
now some of the pros of cannabis use
-encourages socialising.
-builds self confidence.
-allows for greater appreciation of music.
-inspires creativity(cannabinoid profile willing)
-may reduce the instance of cancer of the lung, upper airwaves, and esophagus(cancer prevention?).
-may reduce various other forms of cancer ,though this is unlikely to be achieved solely through smoking(but as the main cancer fighting molecule thc builds up in bodily fats ,it may reduce instance of brain tumers as the brain is mostly fat, but probably only in heavy users, more research is needed but plenty is available through your prefered search engine).
-cleans the lungs of infrequent users by inducing coughing?.
-has many ,many medicinal uses.
-involves those willing to embrace ,with a global cultural identity ,including religion ,music and philosophy
-builds a fundamental appreciation for the more "tradional" life style of living simlply and in sync with ones "natural" enviornment.
-encourages a love of botany.
-helps with various mental illnesses(not all)
-contrary to popular belief cannabis does not kill brain cells ,it in fact promotes nerve growth and protects nerves (for example a receiding brain tumer),the reason for this belief was "tabacco style research" where monkey were sufficated with cannabis smoke ,via a gas mask every day ,and as a result of oxygen deprivation suffered massive brain damage,thank you ronald reagan.
-and in general promotes "a cant we just get along mentality"
and finally the pros of prohibition
-creates a counter culture that some enjoy and prosper in.
-encourages closely woven family and friend based markets .
-encreases spending on the justice system,creating employment.
-increases the choice of drugs a cannabis user can access .
-makes cannabis available to minors (minors consider this a pro)
-makes weapons available(what if ireland needed a popular revolt?)
-gives meaning to the lives of anti drug lobbyist and goup members(whom with out cannabis wouldnt have such a big "drug problem" to complain about,though in ireland there is a huge heroin problem ,there are more known heroin addicts in the greater dublin region than gardi in the country ,so this point maybe invalid).
-makes ireland part of a global crusade (its nice to be in the club makes you fell normal)
-keeps the gardai nice and busy ,and they always have somthing to show off (if only it was a pay rise and reduced hours!)
-generates employment in "poor countrys".
-makes good news
-makes good movies
-creates massive international beuracracys(generating employment)
-provides a mentality that some people are just plain sub human and their right dont count,therefore making political partys like neo-nazis and the BNP more acceptable,and providing the necessary enforcement resources to fufill their goals(hey i dont but im sure they like the idea)
-it also provides tax free employment to countless numbers of urban agriculturalists( possibly reducing dole ques!)
-reduce the need for a pension in the general populus?ANYONE can grow and sell cannabis the market is to massive to miss,and all nessecary materials can be purchased online and delivered right to your front door!
-and its always handy to have somthing nice a visible to worry about in society ,to take your mind off the fluoride in the drinking water, mercury in your fillings and the fact you cant see the stars anymore because of all that damm orange light ,, we should get motion sensors on those things ,it would save a lot of money and help the gardai chase after criminals with a head start
Very comprehensive. Well done. You will now undoubtedly unleash a torrent of venomous, repetitive, unqualified arguments from the hoards of PD youth scrutinising this forum. Heil Harney!0 -
no ,its only going half way ,leaves gangs unchecked ,better than nothing but full regulation is the only vaild solution ,decriminalisation is for drug warriors who will never admit defeat but have been beatin,Amhran Nua wrote: »Would decriminalisation work in Ireland (as opposed to legalisation), in your opinion?
the general population can be easily herded back to prohibition ,it also does nothing about seperating cannabis from the broader black market for drugs, leaving the polydrug dealer gateway effect intact ,also it does not provide age limits or quality control or tax revenue ,
it is just as bad as prohibition except it protects the user to a degree0 -
There wasn't a question. You make some crazy comment about not much money available to tackle the problems Ireland faces at the present and that we are on a cliff face.District_9 wrote: »is that an answer?
What are you trying to say? What cliff face are we on? This is all just hysteria to somehow justify legalising cannabis without actually making any points.
But the difference being that cannabis is much more readily available in Amsterdam than it is here, so the realitive numbers of users will be much higher.District_9 wrote: »Its popular here with teenagers and here they grow out of it in their 20's. do you not see the irony that two countries with different laws have the same trend regardless.
LOL! You have no problem with a dope dealer standing outside your house selling his gear?District_9 wrote: »I have no illusions about the character of these people, however the act of dealing dope hurts no-one. If they are violent men then the Gardai should imprison them for acts of violence.
What streamlining? I don't get what you are saying. Where is the correlation between streamlining the way Ireland is run and legalising cannabis?District_9 wrote: »Its not about how much we make its about streamlining process in the way Ireland does business and is ran. Its the streamlining that will help us not the amount earnt of a cannabis tax which will be minimal I agree.
The tax you mentioned will go to the regulation and policing costs.
Are you talking about freeing up the courts and the Guards to do other stuff?
Free the courts by having on the spot fines.
And as for freeing the Guards, how about doing something about the 50% of their time spent on paperwork.
And that is another laughable statement. A Guard will not bring you in and write you up for simply having half a spliff unless you p1ss him off. I bet though you have a great story of a guy you know of that it happened to and once I ask about it you say well, you don't actually know him but a friend does.Even if you were caught with half a spliff,you'll go to court unless the individual gard couldn't be bothered with the paper work but that's a rare case.0 -
Very comprehensive. Well done. You will now undoubtedly unleash a torrent of venomous, repetitive, unqualified arguments from the hoards of PD youth scrutinising this forum. Heil Harney!
Stop trying to label people who may disagree with certain points as some sort of stone age monster who doesn't know what they are talking about.
If you don't want debate, then maybe you should learn what this site is all about.0 -
so Maceface, since your pro-prohibition, are you happy with the status-quo?
Do you have faith that any day now the "Drug War" will be won and all this stuff that makes people high (excluding alcohol of course) will disappear off the face of the earth?0 -
And that is another laughable statement. A Guard will not bring you in and write you up for simply having half a spliff unless you p1ss him off. I bet though you have a great story of a guy you know of that it happened to and once I ask about it you say well, you don't actually know him but a friend does.
Wrong. I've personally been caught with the end of a spliff and was done for it.
I was fully cooperative. They wanted me to rat. When I said no,that was that.
I spent not one but TWO days in court for a lousy end of a j. He adjourned the first day to give me time to come up with the 100e.
What's your experience of leniency in this department?0 -
Stop trying to label people who may disagree with certain points as some sort of stone age monster who doesn't know what they are talking about.
If you don't want debate, then maybe you should learn what this site is all about.
I am happy, MaceFace, to debate and discuss rational, evidence based assertions with anyone, especially those that might widen my own understanding of this complex subject.
I am sorry your only contributions to this discussion has been your own inexperience and anecdotal conclusions. You have been provided with citations from the extensive research on every aspect of cannabis and prohibition. Yet, you are also happy to refute other's relevant, and not uncommon, experiences in this area.
Just as a note regarding prosecutions for small amounts by the Gardaí, while you are correct that many intelligent and responsible members would not prosecute somebody for token amounts, there are those that still want to raise their station's conviction stats (which are monitored by Garda HQ in the Phoenix Park) with soft targets.
I have spent many hours down in the District and Circuit Courts observing cases, and small possession prosecutions are a regular, even daily occurrence. The overwhelming majority of convictions for any drug related offence is for simple possession (this is the universal experience for countries engaged in the "War on Drugs").
If you have ever been to a music festival you will see the Gardaí rounding up dozens of attenders for being caught with one cannabis cigarette alone.
While you may logically think that it is pointless (makes no impact to public perception on cannabis), counterproductive (encourages citizens to take the opinion that there is little or no moral justification for many laws) and wasteful (the prosecuting Garda could spend up to 2 days in court waiting for the 3 minute hearing of their case) to prosecute people for tiny possession amounts, the realities rarely observe the logical routes.0 -
Not that this is the definitive list,but this is very much similar to any list you'll be able to find.
Most dangerous drugs
Research recently published in the medical journal The Lancet rates the most dangerous drugs (starting with the worst) as follows:
1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Barbiturates
4. Street methadone
5. Alcohol
6. Ketamine
7. Benzodiazepines
8. Amphetamine
9. Tobacco
10. Buprenorphine
11. Cannabis
12. Solvents
13. 4-MTA
14. LSD
15. Methylphenidate
16. Anabolic steroids
17. GHB
18. Ecstasy
19. Alkyl nitrates
20. Khat
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/
.......
I can't see how cannabis is even in the list but at least it's above tobacco and alcohol Some physical evidence at least.0 -
Not that this is the definitive list,but this is very much similar to any list you'll be able to find.
Most dangerous drugs
Research recently published in the medical journal The Lancet rates the most dangerous drugs (starting with the worst) as follows:
1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Barbiturates
4. Street methadone
5. Alcohol
6. Ketamine
7. Benzodiazepines
8. Amphetamine
9. Tobacco
10. Buprenorphine
11. Cannabis
12. Solvents
13. 4-MTA
14. LSD
15. Methylphenidate
16. Anabolic steroids
17. GHB
18. Ecstasy
19. Alkyl nitrates
20. Khat
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/
.......
I can't see how cannabis is even in the list but at least it's above tobacco and alcohol Some physical evidence at least.
Cannabis is in this list because it is not harmless. That is the evidence and the reality. Trying to promulgate the myth that cannabis is harmless does untold damage to the campaign to moderate state's approaches to cannabis.
Cannabis is undoubtedly harmful and open to abuse. That does not mean it justifies heavy-handed state prohibition.
It may be significantly less harmful than alcohol, it is difficult to argue otherwise, but it is foolish and counterproductive to claim that consuming any psychoactive substance has no harmful effect on your neuro-chemistry.0 -
Very important to point out newjack202, but even breaking the stats down on a per capita use basis, the quantifiable harm index still rates alcohol and cigarettes more dangerous in every health respect than cannabis. The factors considered on not confined to simply death. They include general ill-health, psychological harm, propensity for dependence etc.
See Professor Nutt's study and also have a look at the UK's Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs, a government appointed authority. We, unfortunately, in this jurisdiction have not conducted similar comprehensive studies, as our neighbour has, mainly due to resource contraints.
But the overall findings would support earlier contentions in this thread that cannabis is significantly less harmful than alcohol, cigarettes and prescription medication.
It should be noted that cannabis, unlike alcohol, nicotine and a wide range of prescription medications, is non-toxic. It being physically impossible for a human to consume enough cannabis to die. (This excludes the highly processed cannabis tincture which remains classified alongside heroin and cocaine in any jurisdiction that has moderated cannabis prohibition)
I am happy that someone is defending cannabis use rationally for a change. You might also have mentioned that some recent studies have shown that smoked cannabis appears to counteract some of the carcinogenic effects of tobacco smoke. However, I am a bit concerned about some of the psychological effects of cannabis (paranoia, short-term memory loss). Still, there appears to be no justification for the current prohibition.0 -
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BluePlanet wrote: »so Maceface, since your pro-prohibition, are you happy with the status-quo?
Do you have faith that any day now the "Drug War" will be won and all this stuff that makes people high (excluding alcohol of course) will disappear off the face of the earth?
No I am not happy with the status-quo and I do not thing the War on Drugs will ever be won.
That is not a reason to give up though.0 -
Cannabis is in this list because it is not harmless. That is the evidence and the reality. Trying to promulgate the myth that cannabis is harmless does untold damage to the campaign to moderate state's approaches to cannabis.
Cannabis is undoubtedly harmful and open to abuse. That does not mean it justifies heavy-handed state prohibition.
It may be significantly less harmful than alcohol, it is difficult to argue otherwise, but it is foolish and counterproductive to claim that consuming any psychoactive substance has no harmful effect on your neuro-chemistry.
I can't see how ecstasy(mdma) is so far down the list because it's been proven to be neurotoxic. Cannabis is not toxic in any way. Alcohol is also.
Like the above poster said,it can cause paranoia and can effect short term memory but after a few weeks desisting of use,your brain function will have returned to almost normal(in the vast majority of cases).
Alcohol does permanent damage.
Also,addiction/withdrawal potential.
Daily coffee drinker for a couple of months doesn't drink coffee one day,gets sever headaches until he cures himself with some coffee,whereby the headache disappears.
Someone drinking fairly heavily every day for a few months stops one day. Gets 'the rats'. DT's. That person needs drink or bad things will happen.
A typical cigarette smoker,10 - 20 per day abstains for a few hours. That person needs a cigarette. Very strong willpower needed not to go go back.
Daily cannabis smoker,smoking for years. lets just say he smokes 5 joints a day. He smokes straight weed joints,not mixing with tobacco.
One day,his stash runs out and he can't get a hold of any.
No real craving. Sure,a joint would be handy and appreciated but it's not the end of the world. It will be there in a few days or so. I'm sure some people would be hanging for a joint,I've no doubt about it but if it's not there,that's the end of it,nothing can be done.
Anyone agree?0 -
I am happy, MaceFace, to debate and discuss rational, evidence based assertions with anyone, especially those that might widen my own understanding of this complex subject.
I am sorry your only contributions to this discussion has been your own inexperience and anecdotal conclusions. You have been provided with citations from the extensive research on every aspect of cannabis and prohibition. Yet, you are also happy to refute other's relevant, and not uncommon, experiences in this area.
Just as a note regarding prosecutions for small amounts by the Gardaí, while you are correct that many intelligent and responsible members would not prosecute somebody for token amounts, there are those that still want to raise their station's conviction stats (which are monitored by Garda HQ in the Phoenix Park) with soft targets.
I have spent many hours down in the District and Circuit Courts observing cases, and small possession prosecutions are a regular, even daily occurrence. The overwhelming majority of convictions for any drug related offence is for simple possession (this is the universal experience for countries engaged in the "War on Drugs").
If you have ever been to a music festival you will see the Gardaí rounding up dozens of attenders for being caught with one cannabis cigarette alone.
While you may logically think that it is pointless (makes no impact to public perception on cannabis), counterproductive (encourages citizens to take the opinion that there is little or no moral justification for many laws) and wasteful (the prosecuting Garda could spend up to 2 days in court waiting for the 3 minute hearing of their case) to prosecute people for tiny possession amounts, the realities rarely observe the logical routes.
If you read back my comments on this subject, they have been very clear:
* Legalising/Decriminalising cannabis will not have a positive effect on the economy
* Legalising cannabis will not make criminals (dealers/importers/barons etc) go straight.
* Just because cannabis is not as dangerous as other legal drugs should not be a reason to legalise
* Cannabis attracts a less than saluberous type of person
* Legalising cannabis will result in a larger consumption rate due to the easier access.
* Just because policing the illegal activity is expensive should not mean we should not do it.
Any positives that we may get from legalising is far outweighed from the negatives (imho)0 -
Wrong. I've personally been caught with the end of a spliff and was done for it.
I was fully cooperative. They wanted me to rat. When I said no,that was that.
I spent not one but TWO days in court for a lousy end of a j. He adjourned the first day to give me time to come up with the 100e.
What's your experience of leniency in this department?
It would be interesting to know (not that it is my business) what the circumstances of your arrest was.
Were you smoking in the open and a Garda was near?
People complaining saying they were only having a spliff at a concert is wrong. You were breaking a law in front of the police with huge numbers of witnesses. What do you expect them to do?0 -
I can't see how ecstasy(mdma) is so far down the list because it's been proven to be neurotoxic. Cannabis is not toxic in any way. Alcohol is also.
Like the above poster said,it can cause paranoia and can effect short term memory but after a few weeks desisting of use,your brain function will have returned to almost normal(in the vast majority of cases).
Alcohol does permanent damage.
Also,addiction/withdrawal potential.
Daily coffee drinker for a couple of months doesn't drink coffee one day,gets sever headaches until he cures himself with some coffee,whereby the headache disappears.
Someone drinking fairly heavily every day for a few months stops one day. Gets 'the rats'. DT's. That person needs drink or bad things will happen.
A typical cigarette smoker,10 - 20 per day abstains for a few hours. That person needs a cigarette. Very strong willpower needed not to go go back.
Daily cannabis smoker,smoking for years. lets just say he smokes 5 joints a day. He smokes straight weed joints,not mixing with tobacco.
One day,his stash runs out and he can't get a hold of any.
No real craving. Sure,a joint would be handy and appreciated but it's not the end of the world. It will be there in a few days or so. I'm sure some people would be hanging for a joint,I've no doubt about it but if it's not there,that's the end of it,nothing can be done.
Anyone agree?
I have seen this list on a BBC show before and they went through it in detail. It is not just about the harmful affects on your body, but includes the harm it creates in society.
(e.g. you can drink alcohol for your entire life and know it will not cause you or society any harm - assuming you drink in moderation. However drink in society causes huge harm due to the small number of users who puke, fight, become addicted etc).0 -
It would be interesting to know (not that it is my business) what the circumstances of your arrest was.
Were you smoking in the open and a Garda was near?
People complaining saying they were only having a spliff at a concert is wrong. You were breaking a law in front of the police with huge numbers of witnesses. What do you expect them to do?
I won't go into detail but it was about 7 o clock at night,dark raining,I was on my own texting on my phone and undercover came out of nowhere.
I was shocked. Honestly,I believe a fair chunk of the paranoia people experience is due to its illegality and fear of getting caught. Haha,just what they want. I started getting paranoid smoking after that and it kept getting worse until I had to have a four month break. No paranoia again after that.
Regarding what you said about concerts,ime,police at dance events are MUCH more lax than at places like oxygen. Youngsters,out of their mind on e/bzp pills,jaw hanging out,dripping in sweat,saucer eyed walking around out of their minds and police don't even look at them.
Yes,they weren't seen dropping pills but it's just not right.0 -
And (and this is hugely generalising), he probably does nothing productive with his life...Daily cannabis smoker,smoking for years. lets just say he smokes 5 joints a day. He smokes straight weed joints,not mixing with tobacco.
The problem with cannabis is not that it's physically harmful, it's that when someone has cannabis readily available, it's so much easier to get stoned and to mong out in front of the TV or on your laptop instead of doing something productive. In the evening, once you get stoned, there's no going back to reality until the next morning (and even then, with daily, heavy smoking, many people report being less focused in general when they're not high).
I know some people claim to be the opposite, i.e. more focused and productive on cannabis but I think this is a minority of users.
Don't get me wrong, I'm fully pro-legalisation and support cannabis smoking in moderation, it's just I acknowledge the problems it can cause.
I don't really buy into the schizophrenia link too much. I think it can definitely be a factor for some people, but I think it's pushed way too much by the anti drugs lobby who make strong claims based on weak evidence. I don't think anyone's been converted to an anti-weed stance because of the supposed correlation with psychotic disorders, I think people assert a position of being anti-weed and then make claims like this to back up their assertion.0 -
If you read back my comments on this subject, they have been very clear:
* Legalising/Decriminalising cannabis will not have a positive effect on the economy
Decriminalising will not have any significant impact on the economy, but legalising, licensing and regulating will remove the heavy cost of prosecution of cannabis related offences from the justice system (Customs, Gardaí, Judiciary, Free Legal Aid, Prison Service and Probation Service). Tax and licensing revenues, as is seen in the alcohol industry, would easily negate any cost incurred by the taxpayer to train and hire extra civil servants in the Departments of Agriculture and Health.
So while there may not be a massive net gain to the Exchequer in legalising cannabis, there would be a significant reduction in the overall economic costs (and although we aren't provided any concrete stats in Ireland, taking our population and other similar jurisdiction's approach to prohibition €70 million would be a very conservative estimate on the cost at present) involved in prohibition.* Legalising cannabis will not make criminals (dealers/importers/barons etc) go straight.
That is a separate issue, and to be truthful, I would follow the recommendations of individuals such as Fr. Peter McVerry and Dr. Timothy Murphy (people with extensive experience with the social consequences of drug abuse and prohibition) and legalise all illicit narcotics. It was the imposition of prohibition on these substances that created the sophisticated criminal networks earning phenomenal sums today.
There will be demand for these substances as long as there is poverty and inequality (so there will always be demand). If states do not wish to regulate their use responsibly, that criminal element will always exist. Nobody enjoys prohibition as much as these so-called barons.
Legalising cannabis alone will not eradicate this problem, but given that it is universally the most consumed illicit substance in the world, it would deal a substantial blow to their incomes.* Just because cannabis is not as dangerous as other legal drugs should not be a reason to legalise
Prohibition has not improved the problem of drug abuse. In fact the evidence would indicate it has exacerbated it. No country that has moderated it's law on cannabis has seen a jump in either its use, or use of any other illicit substances.* Cannabis attracts a less than saluberous type of person
This is a completely unqualified and subjective assertion. I do not understand what evidence you are deriving this conclusion from, but I would assume you are using the Red Light District of Amsterdam as you point of reference. This issue has already been dealt with in this thread, and to be honest, I have traveled extensively in countries that have legalised and I have never seen the equivalent to Dublin city centre, or any other town or city centre in Ireland, on a Saturday night.* Legalising cannabis will result in a larger consumption rate due to the easier access.
There is no evidence to suggest this whatsover. No usage rates in countries have increased since their rescinding of complete prohibition. Statistics from the Netherlands shows slight decreases in the past 10 years.* Just because policing the illegal activity is expensive should not mean we should not do it.
This appears to be a moral argument, of which there seems to be no substantive or philosophical opposition to decriminalising or legalising cannabis. Cannabis use is not inherently wrong, by any philosophical standard.Any positives that we may get from legalising is far outweighed from the negatives (imho)
I have already outlined rough outlines on cost benefit of legalising. Again, when the numbers are scrutinised. The cost of employing a few civil servants as licensing officials, control inspectors, or lab technicians is insignificant to the current economic burden on our society.
I understand, MacFace, that you may be playing devil's advocate on this debate and I respect that you are one of the few opponents to prohibition to consistently reply to points on this thread.
But sadly, in this case, none of the evidence gathered over 40 years (at great effort and enormous cost to prove otherwise) can justify continuing prohibition.
The moral arguments purported by conservative, anti-hispanic U.S politicians of the 1940's & '50's have been completely refuted on examination.0 -
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you have it bang on , but in soap bar theres opium thats addictive ,I can't see how ecstasy(mdma) is so far down the list because it's been proven to be neurotoxic. Cannabis is not toxic in any way. Alcohol is also.
Like the above poster said,it can cause paranoia and can effect short term memory but after a few weeks desisting of use,your brain function will have returned to almost normal(in the vast majority of cases).
Alcohol does permanent damage.
Also,addiction/withdrawal potential.
Daily coffee drinker for a couple of months doesn't drink coffee one day,gets sever headaches until he cures himself with some coffee,whereby the headache disappears.
Someone drinking fairly heavily every day for a few months stops one day. Gets 'the rats'. DT's. That person needs drink or bad things will happen.
A typical cigarette smoker,10 - 20 per day abstains for a few hours. That person needs a cigarette. Very strong willpower needed not to go go back.
Daily cannabis smoker,smoking for years. lets just say he smokes 5 joints a day. He smokes straight weed joints,not mixing with tobacco.
One day,his stash runs out and he can't get a hold of any.
No real craving. Sure,a joint would be handy and appreciated but it's not the end of the world. It will be there in a few days or so. I'm sure some people would be hanging for a joint,I've no doubt about it but if it's not there,that's the end of it,nothing can be done.
Anyone agree?
and with cannabis joints (in dublin) theres tabacco ,which is more addictive than opium
and although there wont be much of a withdrawl ,no cravings more a longing for ,the user could have problems getting to sleep but a bit a warm milk and honey will do the trick0
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