Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression

Joey the lips

thebhoy wrote: »

violent little thugs who take their first criminal footsteps by selling ****ty lung crippling glass sprayed cannabis or ****ty soapbar.

And to think, with no industry for the gangs to exploit, how would they make their millions... oh thats right, they wouldn't, which would mean that the young people who come from certain disadvantaged areas, wouldn't grow up seeing their only escape as a gang member/drug dealer which would lead to less organised crime...

Oh right I forgot class room 101 Ciggerattes and alchol are legal and of course they have no harmel chemicals or deadly intoxicants in them

Gurgle

Joey the lips wrote: »

Meaning.... That more violent little thugs join the ranks of violent little thugs. Leading to gang war.... That was his precise point. Well done

I thought my post was pretty clear... did you not understand it?

Smoking cannabis is no more a factor in making them into violent little thugs than wearing stolen white nike tracksuits.

Do you think that if the plant was wiped entirely from the face of the earth there would be fewer violent little thugs on the streets?

Do you think that if nike stopped making white tracksuits that would reduce thuggery?

oconcuc

Joey the lips wrote: »

There was a guarda super on RTE discussing cannabis and the resulting crime from it. He said there is a common mis conception that people who smoke cannabis are mellow and relaxed. He said its usually the opposite especially in the teenage years.

Now having agreed that drink is a drug and believing that 2 wrongs dont make a right why would i support cannabis and its introduction when the stats are there for all to see,

Having said that we can argue the case for legalising and introduction till we are all dead. I hope it does not happen in my life time and i hope it does not happen in my kids life time.

Simple really. If you want to know what time of effect cannabis has had on an economy look at the growth of holland. No double digit growth there.

This is why we do not ask Gardaí to draft laws. Law enforcement agencies only see the negative scenarios in aspects of our society. I have had many Gardaí tell me with genuine conviction of the dangers of cannabis, due exclusively to being a gateway drug.

The gateway drug theory had no substantive basis in evidence. The evidence that politicians (generally politicians alone make these claims) cite when promulgating this theory has not shown that cannabis leads to harder substance use, it shows that people who take cocaine (the drug in question in these studies) generally started illicit drug use with cannabis.

For a decent synopsis of some relevant evidence see,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_drug_theory

The gateway drug theory has some merit, but most addiction counselors would indicate nicotine being the gateway drug (considered illicit as most begin smoking before the age of majority).

Ultimately we employ and train the Gardaí to enforce the law, not to develop a nuanced understanding of the causes of anti-social behavior and crime in general. This is unfortunate, as we could undoubtedly benefit from quality, rational input from one of the largest wings of our social services when reviewing and reforming existing law.

As regards your economic growth claims in the Netherlands, I fail to see the relevance or basis of such claims.

Modern, developed, stable economies rarely, if ever, see double digit growth. Only 3rd world and developing countries have the capacity for such rapid and continued expansion.

Cannabis decriminalisation has not resulted in high usage rates in the Netherlands, in fact their rates a significantly lower than ours. They also have much lower abuse rates of the more dangerous illicit substances, ie. heroin and cocaine.

It would appear high cannabis use has little or no impact on economic development.

stevoslice

Joey the lips wrote: »

Oh right I forgot class room 101 Ciggerattes and alchol are legal and of course they have no harmel chemicals or deadly intoxicants in them

That is not the point i was making and you know it.

MaceFace

People are implying that by legalising them, the criminal element will go away.
This is far from the truth, they will just move into other drugs thereby making the availability of harder drugs more prevalent.

Does anyone seriously think that a criminal will get a 9-5 job just because the crime they are engaged in is no longer making them money?

And for anyone who says that crime will not increase with legalisation - if cannabis was legal here, you would people from all over Europe come here because of the availability of drugs. I don't think we want to attract that element of tourist.

Amhran Nua

oconcuc wrote: »

Cannabis decriminalisation has not resulted in high usage rates in the Netherlands, in fact their rates a significantly lower than ours. They also have much lower abuse rates of the more dangerous illicit substances, ie. heroin and cocaine.

I think its important to make the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation. Legalising something means you can partake of it largely without consequence, which the Netherlands has done. Portugal on the other hand has gone down the road of decriminalisation, which means drug use (not supply) is no longer a criminal offence, users attend a helping committee hearing who try to keep them informed of the adverse effects of their drug use.

So far the Portuguese system seems to work fairly well.

Pace2008

MaceFace wrote: »

People are implying that by legalising them, the criminal element will go away.
This is far from the truth, they will just move into other drugs thereby making the availability of harder drugs more prevalent.

Does anyone seriously think that a criminal will get a 9-5 job just because the crime they are engaged in is no longer making them money?

Slippery slope arguments again and again in this thread. Just because it may be impossible to fully end gang activity doesn't mean there should be no attempt made to curtail it. Should we give up trying to stop gun crime for fear that criminals might start using rocket-propelled grenades?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think its important to make the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation. Legalising something means you can partake of it largely without consequence, which the Netherlands has done.

Cannabis is not technically legalised in the Netherlands; rather, authorities employ a policy of tolererance towards possession and small-scale selling.

Amhran Nua

Pace2008 wrote: »

Cannabis is not technically legalised in the Netherlands; rather, authorities employ a policy of tolererance towards possession and small-scale selling.

Would decriminalisation work in Ireland (as opposed to legalisation), in your opinion?

stevoslice

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Would decriminalisation work in Ireland (as opposed to legalisation), in your opinion?

In england they issue a street caution for first time offenders caught with small amounts (class c?). This country you would more than likely have a court appearance and fine/conviction depending on the guard/judge/amount/substance etc.

Decriminalisation would work for the average person who just enjoys a few tokes, but it would just be the start of the process. The criminal gangs that make their money now would still be making their money. To stop them would require the stuff to be sold legally in certain establishments, thus legalisation/regulation would be needed.

droidus

Regardless of the arguments for and against decriminalisation, one of the real tragedies of the criminalisation of cannabis is the attendant criminalisation of hemp.

Whilst there are some small hemp farms in the country, you cant grow hemp without a processors license, which is apparently impossible to obtain. As a potential generator of income for the agricultural sector, hemp - a plant that needs almost no pesticides and no herbicides and actually cleans the soil of impurities as it grows and can be used for virtually any purpose, including building materials, textiles, biofuel, plastic type materials etc.. is ideal, but unfortunately the stigma generated by decades of drug hysteria has prevented even the most harmlessly non-narcotic strains of hemp from being produced on a large scale.

If we could grow hemp in this country we could create employment by processing it ourselves to make 'plastic' bags and other resin based plastic-type material, we could use it as fuel and reduce our oil imports, we could use it for building and reduce c02 emissions, we could use it for paper and reduce the amount of tress we cut down, we could sell the seeds and their byproducts to health food shops, pharmaceutical companies and supermarkets. There are a million uses for the plant and many of them could create tax revenue and employment.

bogwarrior33

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Would decriminalisation work in Ireland (as opposed to legalisation), in your opinion?

Legal grey areas, as exist in the Netherlands, are never ideal. The Dutch model is inherently flawed in that it still does not regulate the production and supply chain of cannabis. This can result in poor quality and potentially harmful product being put on the market.

Commercial production is still illegal with indoor/outdoor growing operations constantly being raided and destroyed by police.

This is quite a paradoxical situation which would, from this jurisdiction's previous experience in such matter, not sit well with the Irish Constitution. Given our written constitution, and the importance of the rule of law or due process under Article 38 of the Constitution.

Non-prosecution of homosexual activities (not legalised/decriminalised until 1993) leg to a number of controversial Supreme Court decisions in the 1980's (see Norris v Attorney General [1985])

Putting cannabis on an equal footing with alcohol (fully legal) would seem to be the best situation. Recognising the real potential health risks.

Licensing producers (allowing domestic cultivation for personal use, limited to a certain weight per annum, as with beer/wine/cider) and charging the Dept's of Agriculture and Health with the inspection and analysis being the responsible and rational approach.

oconcuc

bogwarrior33 wrote: »

Legal grey areas, as exist in the Netherlands, are never ideal. The Dutch model is inherently flawed in that it still does not regulate the production and supply chain of cannabis. This can result in poor quality and potentially harmful product being put on the market.

Commercial production is still illegal with indoor/outdoor growing operations constantly being raided and destroyed by police.

This is quite a paradoxical situation which would, from this jurisdiction's previous experience in such matter, not sit well with the Irish Constitution. Given our written constitution, and the importance of the rule of law or due process under Article 38 of the Constitution.

Non-prosecution of homosexual activities (not legalised/decriminalised until 1993) leg to a number of controversial Supreme Court decisions in the 1980's (see Norris v Attorney General [1985])

Putting cannabis on an equal footing with alcohol (fully legal) would seem to be the best situation. Recognising the real potential health risks.

Licensing producers (allowing domestic cultivation for personal use, limited to a certain weight per annum, as with beer/wine/cider) and charging the Dept's of Agriculture and Health with the inspection and analysis being the responsible and rational approach.

It should also be mentioned that a number of U.S states that have decriminalised Cannabis are beginning to draft proposed State referendum which would completely legalise and tax cannabis production/sale. This jurisdiction has very similar Constitutional structure to our own (Common Law tradition) and their legal scholars have recognised the inherent difficulties in not fully legalising.

oconcuc

thebhoy wrote: »

In england they issue a street caution for first time offenders caught with small amounts (class c?). This country you would more than likely have a court appearance and fine/conviction depending on the guard/judge/amount/substance etc.

Decriminalisation would work for the average person who just enjoys a few tokes, but it would just be the start of the process. The criminal gangs that make their money now would still be making their money. To stop them would require the stuff to be sold legally in certain establishments, thus legalisation/regulation would be needed.

The Dutch experience reflects this issue. Because the supply chain is still illegal, criminal gangs still play an integral role in the industry.

Carroller16

MagicMarker wrote: »

Jaysus, tobacco only kills 750 people a year? I would have thought it would be more than that.

Think that's bad Aspirin kills 4 1/2 people a year

Gurgle

MaceFace wrote: »

People are implying that by legalising them, the criminal element will go away.
This is far from the truth, they will just move into other drugs thereby making the availability of harder drugs more prevalent.

You appear to be suggesting that keeping it illegal is good because it gives scumbags a relatively harmless way to make money....

MaceFace wrote: »

Does anyone seriously think that a criminal will get a 9-5 job just because the crime they are engaged in is no longer making them money?

No, not at all.
The majority are on the dole now, and would probably remain on the dole - and spend more time in front of the TV legally stoned. Some of the more ambitious (:rolleyes:) would probably turn to real crime, but of course there would be much better garda availability to deal with real crime.

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't think we want to attract that element of tourist.

Why not?
The vast majority of pot smokers are perfectly reasonable human beings, except with a much reduced propensity for violence - particularly while stoned.

Zambia

Ireland stands at the cliff face at present there are 101 things that need changing yesterday. There is an dwindling amount of the money pie going around.

We have less money to tackle the issues that we face.

1: I don't believe anyone currently using cannabis would increase or decrease their consumption if it was legalised. Don't believe me, ask your mates that use it?

2: Keeping cannabis off the streets uses resource we could use against other things. I would rather see one burglar in jail than 50 drop smokers and their dealers.

3: Studies showing people being violent on cannabis sound like a stretch to me, more like a violent person smoked cannabis. As opposed to someone smoking cannabis and became violent.I have never seen anyone go of the handle in this way on dope alone.

In the end it will not pull us out of a recession it will simply relieve some of the weight. And if we make smart decisions enough time we lose enough weight to move out of recession. Plus like I said before it it goes wrong, its not impossible to put the genie back in the box.

MaceFace

Gurgle wrote: »

You appear to be suggesting that keeping it illegal is good because it gives scumbags a relatively harmless way to make money....

No, not at all.
The majority are on the dole now, and would probably remain on the dole - and spend more time in front of the TV legally stoned. Some of the more ambitious (:rolleyes:) would probably turn to real crime, but of course there would be much better garda availability to deal with real crime.

Nope - there are plenty of people here saying that legalising will free up the Gardai to tackle "real" crime. I am saying that those involved in this type of crime now will stay involved in crime, but in a different way.

I am not talking about users of cannabis but the people involved in bringing it in and selling it as I doubt very much that end users take up much police time. The Gardai may use it as an excuse to arrest someone, but they will not arrest a Joe Soap for having a spliff on him.

Gurgle wrote: »

Why not?
The vast majority of pot smokers are perfectly reasonable human beings, except with a much reduced propensity for violence - particularly while stoned.

And what are those that are not like this - those that will be attracted here (to both visit and live) because of the liberal nature of Irish society who think you can come here and do things that they are not able to do in their own country.

The only real reason I have heard for legalising cannabis is that it takes resources to police or the government can make money from it.

MaceFace

District_9 wrote: »

Ireland stands at the cliff face at present there are 101 things that need changing yesterday. There is an dwindling amount of the money pie going around.

We have less money to tackle the issues that we face.

So what?

District_9 wrote: »

1: I don't believe anyone currently using cannabis would increase or decrease their consumption if it was legalised. Don't believe me, ask your mates that use it?

True, but it will make it available to a much larger group of people and thus consumption as a whole will go up dramatically, especially in the first few years and among young people for ever (It is very popular with teenagers in Holland but they do grow out of it in the 20s)

District_9 wrote: »

2: Keeping cannabis off the streets uses resource we could use against other things. I would rather see one burglar in jail than 50 drop smokers and their dealers.

Mostly agree, but many street dealers are scum and not the jovial tree hugger that people may think

District_9 wrote: »

3: Studies showing people being violent on cannabis sound like a stretch to me, more like a violent person smoked cannabis. As opposed to someone smoking cannabis and became violent.I have never seen anyone go of the handle in this way on dope alone.

In the end it will not pull us out of a recession it will simply relieve some of the weight. And if we make smart decisions enough time we lose enough weight to move out of recession. Plus like I said before it it goes wrong, its not impossible to put the genie back in the box.

How much money could it make?
Assume everyone who smokes tobacco will smoke cannabis (23% of population). Assume they smoke on average two a week (100 a year). Tax a joint at a quid a go. Thats gives the government €100m a year. Add the huge cost in regulation and policing that will still have to be there, cost unknown.
Why not just add a tenner to every car sold and you will make more than that!

DelBoycie

MaceFace wrote: »

The only real reason I have heard for legalising cannabis is that it takes resources to police or the government can make money from it.

The district courts nationwide are practically tied up with simple possession charges. "100e worth of cannabis,I'll dismiss the charge on the payment of 150e to a charity of your choice/I'll convict and fine 100e".

This is happening multiple times day in,day out in every court.

Who is this benefiting? Who?

It's a waste of everyones time and it's a waste of taxpayers money,tying up the courts like that.

MaceFace

DelBoycie wrote: »

The district courts nationwide are practically tied up with simple possession charges. "100e worth of cannabis,I'll dismiss the charge on the payment of 150e to a charity of your choice/I'll convict and fine 100e".

This is happening multiple times day in,day out in every court.

Who is this benefiting? Who?

It's a waste of everyones time and it's a waste of taxpayers money,tying up the courts like that.

What your talking about there is not just a spliff or two, your probably talking dealer quantities.
So, why don't you call for the courts to be streamlined, or bring in on the spot fines?

Laminations

Or stop walking round with 100e worth of cannabis and YOU'LL stop wasting the time of the courts.

BluePlanet

MaceFace wrote: »

I am not talking about users of cannabis but the people involved in bringing it in and selling it as I doubt very much that end users take up much police time.

The former should mostly disappear as our own licenced cottage-industry starts ramping up production. (providing employment).
The market for imported cannabis should dwindle.
"We're different cause we're Irish!"

Lots of dodgy middle-man will be cut-out of the market as their services are no longer required.
Sell the stuff legally in shops or Off Licenses or special coffee houses.
The street dealers will have to deal something else as the cannabis market has moved to legitimate businesses.

Gurgle

MaceFace wrote: »

Nope - there are plenty of people here saying that legalising will free up the Gardai to tackle "real" crime. I am saying that those involved in this type of crime now will stay involved in crime, but in a different way.

I don't think its that simple.
Many dealers sell cannabis and only cannabis, don't make a whole lot out of it and hold down jobs as well. Will they start selling cocaine if cannabis is legalized?
Some probably will, most I think won't.

MaceFace wrote: »

And what are those that are not like this - those that will be attracted here (to both visit and live) because of the liberal nature of Irish society who think you can come here and do things that they are not able to do in their own country.

Honestly, I think anyone who 'might' move to Ireland for our liberal society has already moved to Holland.

newjack202

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

Tobacco kills 750.000 per year

Alcohol kills 400.000 per year

coffee kills 4.500 per year

aspirin kills 7.500 per year

Cannabis Kills 0 what you say 0 dont believe me look in google videos for a video called

THE UNION , THE BUSINESS BEHIND CANNABIS ,,,

Its all in it ,,

from professors from Harvard uni and many more top Law official's


THE UNION , THE BUSINESS BEHIND CANNABIS ,,,

when you see the video please comment on this truly

Quoting raw figures is meaningless and misleading. You need to give the percentage of users of cigarettes, cannabis etc. that suffer short or long term damage. You dont have to be a statistician to understand that, just have basic common sense. Everyone knows that tobacco, alcohol and coffee consumption is much greater than cannabis consumption.

oconcuc

newjack202 wrote: »

Quoting raw figures is meaningless and misleading. You need to give the percentage of users of cigarettes, cannabis etc. that suffer short or long term damage. You dont have to be a statistician to understand that, just have basic common sense. Everyone knows that tobacco, alcohol and coffee consumption is much greater than cannabis consumption.

Very important to point out newjack202, but even breaking the stats down on a per capita use basis, the quantifiable harm index still rates alcohol and cigarettes more dangerous in every health respect than cannabis. The factors considered on not confined to simply death. They include general ill-health, psychological harm, propensity for dependence etc.

See Professor Nutt's study and also have a look at the UK's Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs, a government appointed authority. We, unfortunately, in this jurisdiction have not conducted similar comprehensive studies, as our neighbour has, mainly due to resource contraints.

But the overall findings would support earlier contentions in this thread that cannabis is significantly less harmful than alcohol, cigarettes and prescription medication.

It should be noted that cannabis, unlike alcohol, nicotine and a wide range of prescription medications, is non-toxic. It being physically impossible for a human to consume enough cannabis to die. (This excludes the highly processed cannabis tincture which remains classified alongside heroin and cocaine in any jurisdiction that has moderated cannabis prohibition)

laurar

how can someone say 750,000 people have died from smoking tobacco and no one has died from cannabis !! and not take into consideration that a percentage of these people used cannabis in their cigarette, they're interrelated!! i know of people who just smoke because they want to get high , and don't just smoke "normal" cigarettes........ ignorance is bliss !!!

and please dont say legalising cannabis can bring us out of the recession, this sounds like a "fantastic" idea someone got while they were sitting at home stoned.

and oh yeah im just throwing this out there , cannabis IS a gateway drug for ALOT of people, yeah i said it !!

DelBoycie

MaceFace wrote: »

What your talking about there is not just a spliff or two, your probably talking dealer quantities.
So, why don't you call for the courts to be streamlined, or bring in on the spot fines?

Even if you were caught with half a spliff,you'll go to court unless the individual gard couldn't be bothered with the paper work but that's a rare case.

Laminations wrote: »

Or stop walking round with 100e worth of cannabis and YOU'LL stop wasting the time of the courts.

Are you serious? Tell me,just because a law is in place,does that automatically make it just and right,simply because it's the law?

In the entire history of this weed growing on our earth,it's been frowned upon in the last 100 years or so.

Why do you believe this is? At the time,films such as Reefer Madness were taken at face value by many,only portraying this medicinal plant in a horrid light.

This is why it became illegal internationally. Over the words of one Egyptian man. They'd banned opium and this guy pretty much said "hashish" was just as bad.

Cannabis was added to the agenda of the 1925 Convention on Narcotics Control because Egypt and Turkey proposed it. Both countries had histories of prohibition based on interpretations of Islamic law; newly secular, they were trying to be 'modern'. The Egyptian delegate denounced 'Hashism' which he said caused from 30-60 per cent of the insanity in his country. 'In support of this contention... there are three times as many cases of mental alienation among men as among women, and it is an established fact that men are much more addicted to hashish than women'. Hashish addicts, he said, were regarded as useless derelicts. 'His eye is wild and the expression of his face is stupid. He is silent; has no muscular power; suffers from physical ailments, heart troubles, digestive troubles etc; his intellectual faculties gradually weaken and the whole organism decays. The addict very frequently becomes neurasthenic and eventually insane.'

http://www.idmu.co.uk/historical.htm
This is complete lies and that's the reason it became illegal. A smear campaign. At least learn the facts before you talk rubbish about something which you clearly know nothing about.

O'Coonassa

I've not been following this thread and haven't read it so apologies if I'm repeating yourself.

Ireland has no right whatsoever in law to legalise cannabis.

Cannabis Sativa and its cultivars are strictly illegal under International Law.

End of story. That is all.

rubadub

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Cannabis Sativa and its cultivars are strictly illegal under International Law.

Have you any links to this "international law" or did the bloke in the pub not give you one. If it is "strictly" illegal then why are people free to smoke and/or grow it without prosecution in various countries.

O'Coonassa

rubadub wrote: »

Have you any links to this "international law" or did the bloke in the pub not give you one. If it is "strictly" illegal then why are people free to smoke and/or grow it without prosecution in various countries.

Here and here and here

In answer to your question it's decriminalised not legalised.

Do you carry hypertext links when you go to the pub? I bet you're great fun.