UCDSU - Should we just ignore them and start our own Union?

El Siglo

Firstly I must admit, I am not a member of any political party, I abhor politicians, radical types etc... I'm just expressing these views as a slightly disgruntled student.
With the complete lack of regard exhibited by the UCDSU, the overpaid, overzealous hacks that defend the construction of an unnecessary new student centre, that spend our money on drinking junkets, that are now defending health care fees, that carried out a piss-poor anti-fees campaign, that actually only ever represent the views of a minority of students, is it fair enough to say that they no longer have an actual mandate? Really, are they any use at all, why in the name of God are we puttting up with it? Seriously, it's a joke so it is, we're paying their wages and this is the service we get, some knobs interrupting our lectures for a joke of a 'protest' by the lake? I'm annoyed and sickened by them now, do we have to put up with them? Can we not just ignore them, start our union and negotiate with the college authorities, leave the UCDSU out in the cold as they have done so with us. The fact that this union purports to be some sort of bastion of leftist ideology (e.g. Palestinian article in last years SU booklet, the ban on coca coca cola etc...) and yet they're allowing charges to come in left, right and centre. Is there a chance that we could start a non-political union that literally represents the views and interests of students and students alone, and not some money grabbing future FF, FG, Labour politicians or crusty hippy leftists with no actual alternatives except sit-ins and protests by lake.
Can we do any better?

Mardy Bum

This is Ireland, crocked shenagains and bad leadership from the people in charge is a thing engrained in the Irish mentality that we just ignore and crib about to no affect i.e Dev Haughey Bertie all in between and now the current shower, ucd student unions no different.

IrishKnight

Funny, I was just trying to find if we (the student body) could force a vote of no confidence in the SU. Couldn't find anything within the constitution other than the whole referendum, which could work. Just get 666 people to sign a bit of paper to hold a referendum on the question of the student bodies confidence in the SU. Tis the only way I can see that happening. If passed, forced election in which we (those who care enough) can campaign for a RON vote for every position...

Some would say this would waste lots of money though, if only the SU could somehow ensure that this wouldn't happen, perhaps by, you know, doing what the students want...

cruizer101

666 is feck all if thats all it is. Sure a class of Science, commerce, Engineering, or some others would be 150.

The_Minister

My favorite union moment was when we bussed people to Rossport.:rolleyes:

Still, overall the Union does good work and tries its best.

Sringo

As a matter of interest how much do members of the SU get paid?

I'm only new here so I don't know how things work but are they not voted representatives of the Student Body? A new SU would only weaken what little power the old student union has and cause confusion among the college officials with regards to who they should be dealing with. I'd say IrishKnight's idea of a no-confidence vote is much more feasible. But then again after a few years the new SU members would undoubtedy become as 'bad' as the old ones which would make the whole process pointless.

Perhaps a dictatorship is the only way to get things done...

33% God

It would be far better if people would actually begin to give a damn about the union. There is no reason why the union should only represent the minority of the students, and the only reason it does is because only a minority of students vote. If people actually participated in it then it might work. A second union will fail for the exact same reason, apathy on behalf of the majority of the student body.
However, that's not solely the student body's fault. The union has a responsibility to make people feel involved in the union. They act far more like a governing body than they act like a union. The student body IS the union, that's why it's called a student's union, not a student government, but that fact is lost on many, if not most, students. Perhaps the problem is compulsory membership, perhaps it is poor organisation, perhaps it is simple laziness on behalf of students, or a combination of all of that.
Either way we'd be far better of getting students invested in the union we have rather than starting a new one, which will fail for the same reasons the present one does.

Kournikova

Any form of a Union is obviously left wing. I don't see how a Palestinian article some how means they are all communists.

IrishKnight

Sringo wrote: »

As a matter of interest how much do members of the SU get paid?

Last year the Sabbatical Officer Wages, €110,000 and Staff Wages, €215,000

http://www.ucdsu.ie/about/union-budget/

Sringo wrote: »

Perhaps a dictatorship is the only way to get things done...

That's what I've always said :P

El Siglo

Jesus Colm McCarthy would have a field day with their budget!:D

muffinman

Yeah they get €22000 each for the sabbats..

As for them not having a mandate.. This has been said a million times before but every student is eligible to vote, and if the 18,000 non-voting students feel so strongly about how bad the union is, they should have voted RON for all the positions.. Simple as..

RandolphEsq

The_Minister wrote: »

My favorite union moment was when we bussed people to Rossport.:rolleyes:

Still, overall the Union does good work and tries its best.

/tucks brown envelope into pocket

FYP

errlloyd

Can't we just vote in 5 new lads to the job? Il Sligo care to run, I dunno if I would vote for you, but you should.

aequinoctium

inquiries have been made regarding leaving the SU:

it would be a long a difficult process and i think you'll have to go to the USI as well.

if you leave the SU then you cannot avail of the SU shops, the student health services, that bus that goes between UCD and exam halls and various other things.

democratically, you should be allowed to leave and also to start a rival union. their response is that more than one union would weaken their stance, which in reality is not very influential to begin with.

my biggest problem is that they do not consult the students. i have not had a class rep in two years because my class sizes have been too small to get the required number of votes to elect someone in the group. when the SU does something stupid (a regular occurance), then it's too late when we find out and question them on it. and even those who have class reps have no communication with them. they have free reign to do as they wish, what they think is best: to quote one of the officers from last year "well i thought about it, and it's correct" - **** you!

IrishKnight

betafrog wrote: »

Jesus christ, €370,000 on Ents! What a monumental waste of money.

I'd agree with you on that. Sure it is important to have a bit of a laugh and some time to relax but surely they can cut a good block out of that...

Mardy Bum

IrishKnight wrote: »

I'd agree with you on that. Sure it is important to have a bit of a laugh and some time to relax but surely they can cut a good block out of that...

Excuse me but Republic of sh1t the blizzards and the coronas don't come cheap yano!:pac:

IrishKnight

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Excuse me but Republic of sh1t the blizzards and the coronas don't come cheap yano!:pac:

True, maybe they should cut down on playing 20 odd weeks in the uni year... :rolleyes:

Riamfada

Id come back just to sort this all out and fight the man. Its putting me in the mood to be the next Ryan griffin

Riamfada

betafrog wrote: »

Jesus christ, €370,000 on Ents! What a monumental waste of money. How does a student body spend well over a third of a million on parties and such! Show's exactly where the unions priorities lie, it is purely an excuse for a very cliquey group of students to party at every one elses expense and get paid doing it..

€370,000 on Ents! Well the plebs need to be entertained. Let them eat cake I say!

intheknowucd

Ok i regularly view these boards but have never posted till now as some peoples posts are just pissing me off. Mind you im not in the business of defending the Union - I was a class rep last year and wont be again as dont have the time. But some of the posts here have just been stupid and its clear that most people dont have a clue what theyre talking about.

betafrog wrote: »

Jesus christ, €370,000 on Ents! What a monumental waste of money. How does a student body spend well over a third of a million on parties and such! Show's exactly where the unions priorities lie, it is purely an excuse for a very cliquey group of students to party at every one elses expense and get paid doing it..

IT IS A BUDGET- therefore it has income and expenditure- look at the income side before making stupid observations- Take away the €300,000 income form Ents and it does pretty well when you consider the cost of every class party in UCD and the UCD Ball etc etc. In my opinion Ents its the SUs biggest asset

Sringo wrote: »

As a matter of interest how much do members of the SU get paid?

This has been raised before- €400 a week but as far as I'm aware thats actually the least of any SU in the country and it is the biggest union. From being a bit involved last year they always seem to be in there late and off to meetings and the likes

El Siglo wrote: »

hacks that defend the construction of an unnecessary new student centre,

Hate to break it to ya but students voted for this and at the time of the vote the SU were actually against it I think but now that the students voted they have to defend it.

El Siglo wrote: »

some knobs interrupting our lectures for a joke of a 'protest' by the lake? I'm annoyed and sickened by them now, do we have to put up with them?

Once again if you are referring to the Day of Action and that protest- students voted for that- the SU were against the idea as it turned out to be a waste of time.

I won't quote you on the Coca-Cola thing- but you get the idea- referendum- students voted etc etc

El Siglo wrote: »

that carried out a piss-poor anti-fees campaign, that actually only ever represent the views of a minority of students,

Here I disagree with you once again- Its one of the reasons I got involved with the SU and I think they actually did a good job at it- Thousands of students from UCD were out on the streets.

El Siglo wrote: »

that are now defending health care fees, ?

Here I agree with you and its one reason i definitely wont run for class rep again this year- Im pretty sickened by this and mostly that Gary Redmond put his name to it. They broke a mandate and should be called up on it

I don't think we can or should get rid of the SU- their main job is representation and they do it quite well normally- just get out and vote and if you want to give out about them go to Union council - its on every 2 weeks afaik

Riamfada

While alot of your points are correct and I agree you seem to have bought into alot of the UCD propoganda. Your wouldnt happen to have been a first year class rep by any chance?

Riamfada

intheknowucd wrote: »

Hate to break it to ya but students voted for this and at the time of the vote the SU were actually against it I think but now that the students voted they have to defend it.

This is all true but horribly incorrect. In true politcal fashion figures dont represent the reality

intheknowucd wrote: »

Once again if you are referring to the Day of Action and that protest- students voted for that- the SU were against the idea as it turned out to be a waste of time.

I think it was organised by Dan O'Neill. Deputy President of the SU? If a vote can be organised that easily why cant it be done about the student center again? If the students are in favour of it surely it will only bolster popular opinion for it?

intheknowucd wrote: »

Here I agree with you and its one reason i definitely wont run for class rep again this year- Im pretty sickened by this and mostly that Gary Redmond put his name to it. They broke a mandate and should be called up on it

The year hasnt even started and already the Students who pay for their representation have been betrayed. There really isnt another way of putting it. The execs dont have that cusbah to take a stand nor do they really care about students, they are getting a leg up for a sabat position and the council wont be sitting for months and even if one council member takes a stand they wont be welcome back and even at that most of them just want to be in the Ents Officer's good books so they can meet some 3rds rate band. Couldnt give two ****s about their classes.

intheknowucd wrote: »

I don't think we can or should get rid of the SU- their main job is representation and they do it quite well normally- just get out and vote and if you want to give out about them go to Union council - its on every 2 weeks afaik

I tried that. Didnt work. Class rep wouldnt voice my concerns because it wouldnt go down well at council. Even if they did manage to vote against their mates on this, would it even be acted upon.

While the union throw some parties thats not what a union is defined to do. They are supposed to represent their members which are getting hit with bigger bills, poor teaching facilities and reduced support facilities and what have UCDSU got to say about it.

Not only nothing but they evidently support these cuts and fees.

This year postgrads took matters into our own hands as anyone here longer than 3 years knows to bypass the union. Hugh Brady turned his decision around on summertime opening hours as a result. Boom. Im sure the postgrad officer (oh we have one you know) will take credit for it.

Riamfada

intheknowucd wrote: »

Hate to break it to ya but students voted for this and at the time of the vote the SU were actually against it I think but now that the students voted they have to defend it.

That is actually a lie. Its blatant. I dont know where you are getting your information about what happened in UCD before you arrived but your are clearly being bull****ted. Jane Horgan Jones and Labour Youth set up the "No" Campaign while an SU Sabat who shall remain nameless because i respect and like as a person him/her, they ran "Yes" campaign with another SU sabat came into my class telling us we should all vote yes to this amazing thing that we will all be able to use if we are still in ucd in 8 years

You think wrong my friend. Perhaps you should request a name change to "thinksheknowsucd"?

Im sure you are also aware that UCDSU are banned from having accounts on boards.ie ?


I also love that since the lefties have climbed the echelons of student politics that have become silent on the types of thing they would have marched on before. Power corrupts, even student "power"

Riamfada

betafrog wrote: »

If anything the Ents section of the SU should be split off into a separate entity that has voluntary membership, I shouldn't have to pay for a group of lads to weasel their way into the entertainment business.

Damn Straight. Couldnt have put it better myself. Decide what your money is to go towards, Ents or Healthcare. There are many many clubs and socieities that run at a profit or dont run at all, all of which have parties and events for a subscription fee. Im aware they get grants but there is no need to subsidise people's partying. Especially when alot of that money is wasted.

Stepherunie

You know, I'm guessing most of the people here who are dissing the Union never got involved in the Union and that's the point.

I gave a lot of time to the Union when I was in UCD, I was a class rep for my class in my 3rd adn 4th year and was Posgraduate officer last year until november when I resigned as I decided to leave college to start my career.

Here's some of the things I did as a class rep:

Attended Council every fortnight to vote on motions.
Discussed motions with my class and made sure to highlight ones that affected them particularly
Spent hours in meetings with lecturers when we had issues with placements. Actually sorted out placements for members of my class.
Went to Fight Fees protests
Packed freshers bags and handed them out in the freshers tents
Postered for various events around UCD
Sat on Staff Student Committee and Programme Board in the School of Medicine and Medical Science
Dealt with class queries from both lecturers and students. This included getting texts at 3am asking what time class was the next day.

Now that's only part of what I did, and I know a lot of people who did more than I did.

Officers and reps do the best they can most of the time, that is not to say they don't screw up sometimes. Anyone who was around during my time there will know I was pretty vocal pointing out flaws that occurred in the Union. I didn't keep my mouth shut just to keep people sweet and it caused me to have enemies.

If i was still around I'd run again to be on council just to call people out. People seem to see this as a reason to leave, this should be a call to get even more involved and fix things from the inside. Standing and shouting on your own will get you nowhere.

I stood up and said I felt Barry Colfer was wrong as President to defend students being evicted from Residences when they had been caught falsely setting off Fire alarms. I put a motion to council and whilst it was defeated the motion helped the class reps themselves to note just how serious an issue these things could be.

Complain all you want here, say we need another Union, but at the moment the UCDSU is the only one recognised by the college and it's unlikely for that to change. You seem to forget that you pay for your sabbats - they are accountable to you. If you have a problem with them let them know. There email addresses are readily available.

So here is what I propose. Below are the emails of all the sitting sabbats. Email them and demand an explanation. Get your friends to do it. Email Martin Butler, the Vice President for students demanding this issue be revisited. Show that you care enough to take the time to write. Not just mouth off here about how bad you think they are. Tell them directly, it's your Union.

President: Gary Redmond
president@ucdsu.ie

Campaigns and Communications: Paddy Ryan
campaigns@ucdsu.ie

Education: Donnacha O Suilleabhain
education@ucdsu.ie

Welfare: Scottie Ahern
welfare@ucdsu.ie

Ents: Mike Pat O' Donoghue
ents@ucdsu.ie

Martin Bultler, Vice President for Students
vpstudents@ucd.ie

Riamfada

Stepherunie wrote: »

I stood up and said I felt Barry Colfer was wrong as President to defend students being evicted from Residences when they had been caught falsely setting off Fire alarms. I put a motion to council and whilst it was defeated the motion helped the class reps themselves to note just how serious an issue these things could be.

Complain all you want here, say we need another Union, but at the moment the UCDSU is the only one recognised by the college and it's unlikely for that to change. You seem to forget that you pay for your sabbats - they are accountable to you. If you have a problem with them let them know. There email addresses are readily available.

Steph you did stirling work for the students you represented. However a motion you proposed which any right minded person would support was defeated. Sabats are the ones who seem to forget that they are being paid for by the students and I think it is them that need reminding. Personally id rather see the money stay in the students pocket if the Sabats refuse to do what they are paid to.

parker kent

Grimes wrote: »

Damn Straight. Couldnt have put it better myself. Decide what your money is to go towards, Ents or Healthcare. There are many many clubs and socieities that run at a profit or dont run at all, all of which have parties and events for a subscription fee. Im aware they get grants but there is no need to subsidise people's partying. Especially when alot of that money is wasted.

This is a great point. As was seen in another thread, the health centre is an emotive issue. Cutting from Ents to pay for it would be a much better use of resources. In 4 years at UCD I still haven't been to a SU event so it would not bother me at all! Let us plan our own nights out like we do anyway. This is no time to needlessly waste money. Not that there ever is a time for that either.

Plus in general the average student is either unconcerned or openly hostile to the SU. Voting levels are tiny so any claims that "students voted for it" in relation to anything should be taken with a pinch of salt. In real elections, turnout is low but in these turnout is miniscule. Maybe if there was a new SU that was attractive to people, this kind of thing would be different. The whole "lets protest by the lake and bang drums" approach is so off-putting. I would almost disagree with them on any point just to annoy them! And don't get me started on the nightmare of being on campus on election days, I love saying "Vote in what?" to them to p**s them off!

Edit: Stepherunie you clearly did good work and speak sense in your post, so don't think this post was meant as a reply to yours!

aequinoctium

Grimes wrote: »

I think it was organised by Dan O'Neill. Deputy President of the SU?

He was campaigns & communications...
... and is the same genius who used a MEGAPHONE in an anti-fees protest outside the LIBRARY while people were in there trying to study.

n7sen

I was wondering where SU gets its money?anyone knows exactly?

Red Alert

I'm not sure Stepherunie ever actually e-mailed the postgrads to say she was the postgrad rep. Just saying it.

aequinoctium

n7sen wrote: »

I was wondering where SU gets its money?anyone knows exactly?

the university gives a lump some to the office in the student centre which is divided among the SU, societies & clubs.
i imagine it has been slashed this year though. hopefully small societies aren't effected too much. the big societies should take the fall.

Red Alert

Isn't that the Societies Committee?

Jev/N

n7sen wrote: »

I was wondering where SU gets its money?anyone knows exactly?

From the students?

Jev/N

Just a few points on this topic... I was gonna quote and reply etc. but it's just too much hassle.

I do have to agree with some points raised by OP, such as the campaigns etc. but in the grand scheme of things it's USI who should be leading the pack about the fees reintroduction and it's also the students themselves who should be out making up numbers although the march in the city went well.

I think the healthcare fees think is a joke but I would agree with it if the health centre was expanded so you could actually get a doctor when you needed one, not a week later as I discovered on a number of occasions.

I'd have to defend the new student centre even though so many people here are vehemently against it. There was a vote and the majority of those who voted, voted for it. Is it the 'No' campaign that people have gripes with?

With regard to Ents, I don't see such a problem? (I will note at this point that I was involved in Ents for the 4 years I was in UCD) €70,000 when balanced for the year isn't the worst considering the amount of some of the other expenditures. Also, look at the balance difference between 07/08 and 08/09.

TheJeanGenie

A big problem is that the SU is successful on a lower class level, reps ensuring students know about certain issues and parties etc. However when it comes to the big issues such as an improved students centre and introducing fees they fail to involve the entire student body. I believed the anti-fees protest to be laughable and disorganised, they just whined and didn't mention any alternatives to fees.
Perhaps instead of creating a new union they should split the existing one, having each focus on a) issues which face the college as a whole b) issues which face particular schools within the college.

Pride Fighter

Yes.

Stepherunie

Red Alert wrote: »

I'm not sure Stepherunie ever actually e-mailed the postgrads to say she was the postgrad rep. Just saying it.

No I didn't. My contact details were included in a letter sent by UCD, which I was told was sent to all postgraduate students in UCD.

IIRC my details were also included in a Union email sent to all students in the college and were available on the UCDSU website and the Freshers guide.

My contact details were also sent to all the graduate administrators by the Dean of Graduate Studies and students were often referred to me by them.

In hindsight sending an email was something I probably should have done, I just didn't think to do it.

KeyLimePie

I've always wonder, does Arts have student reps ? Cause I'd like to go for it if we do....

Mardy Bum

Yes class reps. They are in the small denominated classes and in the bigger omnibus ones.

TheJeanGenie

Is it just me or does anyone else immediately associate class rep with party organiser? They also make it their job to inform people who don't attend lectures about upcoming assignments and/or exams. Of course this is a difficult job to take on on top of their own studies, but when you take into consideration issues facing the student body surely fighting fees is far more important than planning a party.

Mardy Bum

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else immediately associate class rep with party organiser? They also make it their job to inform people who don't attend lectures about upcoming assignments and/or exams. Of course this is a difficult job to take on on top of their own studies, but when you take into consideration issues facing the student body surely fighting fees is far more important than planning a party.

That could be a generalisation!

TheJeanGenie

Well this is what I encountered, lol. Don't get me wrong there are students who miss lectures for genuine reasons but I was just trying to make the point that as class rep there are alot of trivial tasks to take care of before you even consider these major issues of expanding or improving the campus or fees/charges.

Mardy Bum

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

Well this is what I encountered, lol. Don't get me wrong there are students who miss lectures for genuine reasons but I was just trying to make the point that as class rep there are alot of trivial tasks to take care of before you even consider these major issues of expanding or improving the campus or fees/charges.

It isnt the class reps job to expand the campus or improve it. The earlier part of your post entails what is expected of them. Its does higher up that should be doing the major issues. The class reps job is just to notify the SU on their classes feelings.

Riamfada

IMO class reps are generally unopposed and its a foot in the door with the union and a free weekend away to get locked and wreck a small wexford town ! Ive only met 1 class rep in my 4 years in UCD that really worked for his class.

Rob Palementeri

TheJeanGenie

I've yet to witness my class being asked about a particular issue which indicates to me a breakdown in communication between students and 'higher up'. If there was someone elected to do this job specifically while another person dealt with the tasks of class rep this could improve the situation of students being landed with information such as the health charge.

Mardy Bum

Grimes wrote: »

Rob Palementeri

My class rep:D

Riamfada

My department ran its own class rep elections who dealt directly with the head of the school and the students. Worked much better. The SU seat sat empty. We wernt interested in Club 21 concessions.

aequinoctium

Grimes wrote: »

My department ran its own class rep elections who dealt directly with the head of the school and the students. Worked much better. The SU seat sat empty. We wernt interested in Club 21 concessions.

several departments do that. it seems to work well
unfortunately my dept doesnt but i am tempted to maybe suggest it to an enthusiastic lecturer who could bring it up in a dept meeting.

El Siglo

Maybe this might appear a bit mad or silly or just the ramblings of a lunatic but anyway just a few thoughts (I hope I don't appear to mad, it's not my intention).
There’s one thing that’s annoyed me fierce about all of this, is that we as UCD students have forgotten our roots so to speak and the UCDSU is the antithesis of this. Our roots; laugh at them or not are steeped in a tradition of openness and opposition to injustice. These cornerstones of our university are gone, they’ve been replaced with self righteous hacks waiting to progress into real politics, our roots are now poster campaigns of drink promotions in crappy nightclubs. The UCDSU, is a mirror of the administration, it’s a docile kitten with a ball of string that’s more concerned about lining its pockets than it is about the students welfare (that’s the crux of it). I actually believed the union was something useful, was something to be proud of, to be apart of. But, that pride and adoration has dissipated. The union is more of a mini-government, a tokenism by the College authorities to the students to show “yes we care about our students’ opinions’ sure we’re working with the union on this!” The fact is; how can it be a union for students, if it’s funded by the College. How can you be independent and operating for students if you’re paid by the College? You could join the union and try and improve it from within, but you would be pissing into the wind. The union is rotten, it’s a hub of cronyism, just like every other institution or quango in this country, it’s a rotten little boys club. It’s the same kinds of people, year in and year out and I’m just fed up as are most students I’ve encountered. People that don’t vote in the SU elections, do so because they’re vote won’t make a difference, they’re choices are literally a giant douche and a turd sandwich. The ones that do vote are usually harassed into doing so or they have a friend of a friend running in an election. Our union isn’t a union, it’s a mini-government and as Thomas Jefferson said; “When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” The reason why the SU can do what it likes is that it doesn’t think we as students care about the running of the place, because for so long we were more worried about getting our J1’s in order than we were about the education standards at undergrad level etc… Well folks, they’re taking away everything from us, we’re going to be paying for everything now with absolutely no help from the union, and as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn put it; “You can have power over people as long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power.”

parker kent

El Siglo wrote: »

People that don’t vote in the SU elections, do so because they’re vote won’t make a difference, they’re choices are literally a giant douche and a turd sandwich. The ones that do vote are usually harassed into doing so or they have a friend of a friend running in an election.

That sums up SU elections perfectly!

Riamfada

parker kent wrote: »

That sums up SU elections perfectly!

Generally I wouldnt care about all of this but in 10 years when these people are TD's swindlining the country out of money like their forefathers.