Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2009-2011

STIG83

Davy Fitz has put Waterford hurling backwards, looking back getting rid if Justin was a bad move.
If Tipp go on and win the AI again i wont begruge them tbh, rather see them then KK wIn it.

nkay1985

STIG83 wrote: »

Davy Fitz has put Waterford hurling backwards, looking back getting rid if Justin was a bad move.
If Tipp go on and win the AI again i wont begruge them tbh, rather see them then KK wIn it.

I'm not sure about that. I think Justin had brought us as far as he could and there were major flaws there. Just because we didn't get an exceptional manager in after him does not mean that getting rid of him was wrong.

cornerboy

From what i saw of the minor team they have the same issues as the seniors.....completely lacking in pace, deficient hurling skills. Clare were streets ahead and should have won by more, same last year.

Our pace of hurling is not at the same pitch as other counties.

freewheeler

Le King wrote: »

Why does Davy insist on playing Brick anywhere else? He holds the whole unit from midfield to the full back line together and why is Molumphy captain? Surely Brick would be a better option. He is extremely weak in open play and is hardly inspiring.

Sorry if that's a bit intrusive as a first post but it's sad to see a team like Waterford be beaten so badly. Davy needs to go no matter what happens against Galway. Stopping teams isn't going to win All-Irelands.

Agree with you re. Davy..has to go after this season. Don't know where he got the 'stopping teams' reputation though..it's the one thing his teams seem utterly incapable of! All i know is that my two worst days supporting the Deise have been on Fitzgeralds watch...absolutely humillated on both ocasions against Kilkenny and now Tipp. We can't be as bad as we looked yesterday surely?

Professey Chin

cornerboy wrote: »

From what i saw of the minor team they have the same issues as the seniors.....completely lacking in pace, deficient hurling skills. Clare were streets ahead and should have won by more, same last year.

Our pace of hurling is not at the same pitch as other counties.

Its not really a problem with the minor team. That Clare minor team is exceptional. Our minors didnt get going but thats the worst theyve played all year. Their 1st goal yesterday shows how they can play and that the proper hurling our seniors used to play is still alive in the younger players.

jacko1

nothing much wrong with the minor team - dont be surprised if the All Ire Final is Clare v Waterford

as for the Senior team - I'd convene a county board meeting - dismiss Fitzgerald on the spot and give Paul Flynn & Tony Browne joint contol for Sunday week with a view to them taking over for a three year stint

buck65

Heard on the radio that Waterford were due to train this morning at 6.30 am. Is this true/possible? Surely a few days off would be better for them.

cornerboy

buck65 wrote: »

Heard on the radio that Waterford were due to train this morning at 6.30 am. Is this true/possible? Surely a few days off would be better for them.

Piss take

cornerboy

Mega Chin wrote: »

Its not really a problem with the minor team. That Clare minor team is exceptional. Our minors didnt get going but thats the worst theyve played all year. Their 1st goal yesterday shows how they can play and that the proper hurling our seniors used to play is still alive in the younger players.

Admit it was my first view of the minors but they looked way off the pace...yesterday was a day to produce if good enough. As for their shape..why did the selectors let the Clare Centre forward roam out the pitch to pick up ball after ball and orchestrate every attack while leaving our centre back standing in the centre back position with the game totally bypassing him. Criminal and if we had marked the CF it would have been a different game.

Deise Tom

Le King wrote: »

Why does Davy insist on playing Brick anywhere else? He holds the whole unit from midfield to the full back line together and why is Molumphy captain? Surely Brick would be a better option. He is extremely weak in open play and is hardly inspiring.

Sorry if that's a bit intrusive as a first post but it's sad to see a team like Waterford be beaten so badly. Davy needs to go no matter what happens against Galway. Stopping teams isn't going to win All-Irelands.

Both are brilliant leaders and its only right that they are Captain and vice Captain. Tony Browne is the only other out and out leader i think we have. I know John Mullane was captain of De La Salle when they won the County and Munster Finals, but i think at inter county level you need to be in around centre field or the half back lines to carry out the responsibilities to the full, but in saying that, i guess Eoin Kelly could blow away my mitt.

One thing we will give Davy credit for, he got rid of the stupid joint captain thing.

Deise Tom

Daysha wrote: »

Yup, I don't have the willpower or energy to write anything substantial on that either. Only in the door because of the woeful traffic around Cork. Hope I never have to return to that dump in its current form.

In many ways today was far worse than the All-Ireland final. 2008 was a freak occasion when the players just froze on the biggest day of their lives against the best hurling team in the planet. I'm fairly confident the Kilkenny team that day would beat today's Tipp XV.

But this was a Munster final! We're meant to fcuking thrive on these occasions!! We are not 21 points worse than Tipperary but we were shocking on the field and even worse off it. In my innocence I got myself excited when I saw Maurice named as starting in the programme, but once Eoin McGrath took the field I knew it wasn't going to end well. Grand yeah he runs after the ball. But does he actually WIN the ball?!?!

As deise girl put so well, I really fear about what this could do to the younger lads. Wayne Hutchinson must be in pieces. Jerome Maher deserved better. Darragh Fives didn't know what position he was meant to be playing at times, and Brian O'Sullivan could've done a lot better if he was given the supply in the first place. These are really good players, but trying to man-mark the Tipperary forward line with such little experience was just...gut wrenching to watch.

As like nearly everybody except Davy could see beforehand, Brick wasn't suited to the FB role. We took the best centre-back in the country, started him at the edge of the square and told him to go wherever Lar Corbett went. In the meantime, in the backbone of the side at the number 6 position, Kevin Moran was getting dizzy by the Tipp rotations. Another gamble on a big day that didn't pay off.

From the moment I saw Clinton reigning high balls down the middle of the field on top of the Tipp HB line, I felt like weeping. Does anyone have any stats of how many our own puck-outs we actually won? I'd love to see what it was.

I'm afraid to say aswell that must surely be the end of Clinton Hennessy as our first choice goalkeeper. I'm refusing to look at the highlights right now and might never will, but any keeper that concedes seven goals in a big Championship game needs to have a long hard look at himself, regardless of the line in front of him. As I heard someone say, Clinton doesn't seem to purposefully dive for the ball in one-on-ones, he just makes himself as a big as possible and hope for the best. But if we are going to be put under constant pressure around the square we absolutely must need a good shot stopper, and Adrian Power is our man. He has to start against Galway.

I suppose the one thing is that, for all our FB failings in the past, we've never had a day where the line completely capitulated. It was always the odd two or three mistakes that would be the difference in the past, but 7 goals.....SEVEN!....in a Munster final. It's the kinda stuff you'd have nightmares about.

Positives? Well Pauric Mahony hit 13 points in his 1st ever Munster final, so fair play to ya young fella. You'll go places in the future. Tony Browne wasn't as good as last year but was still our best half-back, with a nicely taken point to boot. After that....eh.....

Now for Davy. I defended him more than most in the past. I thought solidifying our position as the 3rd/4th best team in the country while making such drastic changes to the panel was a fair achievement, and a Munster title on top of everything as well. But holy mother of christ he has fcuked up big time on sooo many occasions. I haven't heard any interviews he's given yet, but if he comes out with his 'I tell ya one thing, these bunch of lads will come back fighting so they will' I might actually punch a wall. Davy, this team ALWAYS fought. They ALWAYS gave it 100% right to the end. But what you've done is manage to make us a walking train-wreck going into any big game, and for a county like ours which has had some many ups and downs in the past, seeing us gets results like this is absolutely heartbreaking.

I've heard more than a few people suggest Davy needs to go ASAP, and to get someone in place for the Galway game. This, of course, would be a huge mistake. The next managerial appointment we make will be absolutely critical. One of the biggest decisions our CB will potentially ever make. And regardless of who he is, the right man won't be got mid-Championship. Especially 2 weeks before an All-Ireland quarter-final.

So I'm getting behind him and the lads as always. I'll travel to Thurles/Dublin/wherever the match will be (although I'm genuinely fearful over what kind of Waterford crowd will be there) and we'll hope for the best. But the moment the final whistle goes on our season, whether it's against Galway, Kilkenny or whoever, I'm assuming you're a goner and I look forward to seeing who'll get the most important job in the county.

....so much for not writing anything substantial!

I think you are a bit harsh on Clinton. I think he done well yesterday, even if seven goals went past him. Any goalkeeper that has one player running at him one on one and no player trying to help him out is going to struggle. For four of the first five goals, the player that got them had an acre and a half of spare ground around them and no Waterford player near them. Clinton made some very good saves yesterday, including one quite brilliant one in the second half.

Deise Tom

Mountainlad wrote: »

Fives, Lawlor, Connors. Hold their positions. Maurice starting wing forward. Don't think we'd have won anyway (would have been at least respectable though), but the problem wasn't just today it's been the last few years. They haven't been coached right which is why we're a good way behind Tipp and Kilkenny and why we were never realistically going to win today.

Since june 2008 to be exact and it sounds it will continue according to a statement given to WLRfm in the last few minutes by one of the selectors who is supposed to be with Davy. The man does not have the guts to come on and reply to the Waterford fans and especially the ones that have spoken out against him with a while now.

Deise Tom

Mega Chin wrote: »

Those players are much better then they showed today. Theyve been getting worse under Davy though

I would say that they are not allowed to show how good they are under Davy, and even though he is giving the younger players a chance he is also kicking them in the teeth by not allowing them to play as i know they can. People can say that we cant play the swash buckling hurling we did under justin because we dont have the ken McGraths, Paul Flynn's etc any more, but how in the name of god do we know we cant play that way again if the players are not allowed to show what they can or cant do.

Deise Tom

buck65 wrote: »

Heard on the radio that Waterford were due to train this morning at 6.30 am. Is this true/possible? Surely a few days off would be better for them.

A team meeting i feel would be better where every player and member of the backroom team if they so wish would be allowed to get any matters they have on their chests regarding Davy. I know some people are also mentioning the selectors but they are in there to assist Davy and guess have to go with what he says as he is the boss or supposed to be.

If such a meeting was to take place, it would have to be agreed that there would be no repurcussions on the players.

Mountainlad

Daysha wrote: »

As deise girl put so well, I really fear about what this could do to the younger lads. Wayne Hutchinson must be in pieces. Jerome Maher deserved better. Darragh Fives didn't know what position he was meant to be playing at times, and Brian O'Sullivan could've done a lot better if he was given the supply in the first place. These are really good players, but trying to man-mark the Tipperary forward line with such little experience was just...gut wrenching to watch.

I'm afraid to say aswell that must surely be the end of Clinton Hennessy as our first choice goalkeeper. I'm refusing to look at the highlights right now and might never will, but any keeper that concedes seven goals in a big Championship game needs to have a long hard look at himself, regardless of the line in front of him. As I heard someone say, Clinton doesn't seem to purposefully dive for the ball in one-on-ones, he just makes himself as a big as possible and hope for the best. But if we are going to be put under constant pressure around the square we absolutely must need a good shot stopper, and Adrian Power is our man. He has to start against Galway

Agree with most of your post Daysha, just these two things.

Firstly I wouldn't worry too much about the young players they'll bounce back. I agree the county board has a massive decision ahea but if they get it right you'll see a dramatic change in the team and I think it can only be good for morale.

The reason I'd bring in Power is because he's 22, and Clinton is 34 and we might as well, though at this stage we could just wait til the end of the seaon. None of the goals were his fault barring maybe the 1st which I will be certain of tonight whether he could do anything about it. The other six were either one on ones, or just great finishes.

Other than that I agree. Would be suicide bringing in a manager now, similar to the knee-jerk reaction from Fitzgerald yesterday in completely revamping the full back line that cost us so dearly yesterday.

niallo27 wrote: »

Every team is miles behind tipp and KK, coaching can only bring you so far, if the players arent good enough they are not good enough, your man maurice did look good when he came on, on your full back line it nearly impossible hold your positions with the constant switching the tipp forwards did

Tipp or Kilkenny would not be where they are today without coaching, that is a fact, I completely disagree with that statement. Can we all have a reality check here? Up til last year everyone was saying 'Oh Kilkenny are unbeatable nobody will ever beat them'. Now it's "Tipp and Kilkenny are unbeatable nobody will ever beat them". I wonder will it soon be "Tipp, Galway and Kilkenny are unbeatbale, nobody will ever beat them".

There is potential in this Waterford team. Fair enough, we have to write off our chances this year but that doesn't mean even next year is neccessarily and unachievable all-ireland, or to at least be closing in on Tipp or Kilkenny. A lot can change in a year, and this gulf between ourselves and Kilkenny/Tipp may be true for this year but that doesn't mean it must extend to next year and beyond.

ferdo

freewheeler wrote: »

Agree with you re. Davy..has to go after this season. Don't know where he got the 'stopping teams' reputation though..it's the one thing his teams seem utterly incapable of! All i know is that my two worst days supporting the Deise have been on Fitzgeralds watch...absolutely humillated on both ocasions against Kilkenny and now Tipp. We can't be as bad as we looked yesterday surely?

You're obviously not old enough, lucky man, to remember the worst of the lot in 1982, Cork 5-31 Waterford 3-6 and Ray Cummins' sympathy point.

Mountainlad

Mega Chin wrote: »

Its not really a problem with the minor team. That Clare minor team is exceptional. Our minors didnt get going but thats the worst theyve played all year. Their 1st goal yesterday shows how they can play and that the proper hurling our seniors used to play is still alive in the younger players.

Agreed. I think the minors are getting a raw deal here. People didn't know what to expect but anybody that has seen that Clare team has said they're very string. Premierstone has been saying he reckoned they'd win the all-ireland, Brian Flannery said yesterday or the day before that he was talking to the Kilkenny managment who played Clare in a challenge, and he said it was like the Kilkenny Minors playing the Clare Seniors. Though the lads went twelve points behind they fought back well, and I think a better team finished then started. It's a learning curve for them all and it's no harm losing, and I also believe they can come back stronger from this and still have a say at the end. Anyone see Gavin O'Brien's goal? Goal of the day for me!

Mountainlad

ferdo wrote: »

You're obviously not old enough, lucky man, to remember the worst of the lot in 1982, Cork 5-31 Waterford 3-6 and Ray Cummins' sympathy point.

That may have been the highest defeat but given the quality of the team we have know, to lose by 21 points is unjustifiable.

puzl

The important thing is to not panic. Davy's contract ends at the end of this season and there'll be a natural progression into the next phase of Waterford hurling. The young lads will bounce back, some of the older players might move on and Waterford hurling can and will rebuild.

The absolute worse thing now would be a display of player power or some kind of protest march ****e like what went down in Cork. Yesterday was a disaster, but we haven't hit rock bottom yet and don't have to if we concentrate on what's in front of us, which is Galway in two weeks time. I think we'll struggle to beat them, but what is more important than winning against Galway is to show the rest of the country that we can bounce back from yesterday.

Trenchman

Deise Tom wrote: »

Am i the only one that thinks he done well today. OK there was seven goals went in, but how many could have been stopped. He was exposed too much from elsewhere around the ground. In fact i thought he made a few decent saves one very good one in the second half.

Couldn't disagree with this statement more.I thought he was very poor today in a lot of aspects of his game. Puckouts were average. A few went astray and as such it was clear that we really don't work enough on a puckout strategy. He has a good command of the high ball coming in to be fair.

However, his shotstopping is very poor. He turned his arse to virtually all the shots. One in particular wasn't even a powerful shot but he had committed himself already to the old 'throw my arse in the air and turn backwards' move. It's a very difficult position, no denying that, but we've seen some top class keepers over the last ten years....Cummins,Fitzhenry,Cusack,Houlihan etc...and shotstopping/reflex saves is an integral part of their success. He is not in this bracket.

Personally I think Adrian Power has to be looked at for the quarter final.

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

Premierstone has been saying he reckoned they'd win the all-ireland,

I cant be wrong all the time Mountain, yeah I have been very impressed with Clare minors this year, Tony Kelly will be a future star of the game imo, as will Jake Dillon of Waterford.

Professey Chin

I have the feeling (and the fear ) that we'll scrape by Galway by a point or 2 and then just get an absolute sh!t kicking off Kilkenny....

ferdo

Mountainlad wrote: »

That may have been the highest defeat but given the quality of the team we have know, to lose by 21 points is unjustifiable.

That, we thought, was a quality team also. It included the likes of Pat MCgRATH, John Galvin, Seamie Hannon, Jim Greene etc.
Its 30 years ago and I wont go on but days like yesterday bring it all back.

Deise Tom

ferdo wrote: »

You're obviously not old enough, lucky man, to remember the worst of the lot in 1982, Cork 5-31 Waterford 3-6 and Ray Cummins' sympathy point.

What about loosing to Roscommon in the league in 1984 and Mayo in the same competition in 1986, not to mention loosing to Kerry in the Championship in 1993. Yesterday was the worst of the lot.

Mountainlad

Trenchman wrote: »

However, his shotstopping is very poor. He turned his arse to virtually all the shots. One in particular wasn't even a powerful shot but he had committed himself already to the old 'throw my arse in the air and turn backwards' move. It's a very difficult position, no denying that, but we've seen some top class keepers over the last ten years....Cummins,Fitzhenry,Cusack,Houlihan etc...and shotstopping/reflex saves is an integral part of their success. He is not in this bracket.

Personally I think Adrian Power has to be looked at for the quarter final.

Haha, Timmy Houlihan of Limerick? Is this just trying to substaniate claims of getting rid of Clinton? Houlihan was really great in 2004 when he dropped that ball in to the net against Cork in the munster semi final! I'm sure we'd all be much happier if he was our keeper :rolleyes:

I'm sure Adrian Power is looked at all the time. Look Davy has many a flaw but to be fair one thing you'd have to say is he knows what is involved in being a keeper. There must be some reason Power is not starting. I think I'll change my mind on this actually and say Power can wait til next year, and leave Clinton a final year as the number one, as he is getting a lot of irrational criticism born out of frustration. There was really nothing he could do about the goals yesterday, bar maybe 1. The puckouts were bad at the start, but I dunno what the strategy was and who we were trying to pick out with them.

Mountainlad

ferdo wrote: »

That, we thought, was a quality team also. It included the likes of Pat MCgRATH, John Galvin, Seamie Hannon, Jim Greene etc.
Its 30 years ago and I wont go on but days like yesterday bring it all back.

Yeah a quality team to be fair doesn't lose to Roscommon and Mayo in the league in the next three years as Tom has just pointed out.

This team won a munster last year, they're not a bad side, just badly managed. And that is the consensus on the issue, even from people that were loath to crtiticise Davy before. It must have been awful seeing those days, too young myself, but there is no point in being completely negative about the team. If it's any consolation, you can have my assurance that this team is pormising and that we will be back.

suitcasepink

ferdo wrote: »

You're obviously not old enough, lucky man, to remember the worst of the lot in 1982, Cork 5-31 Waterford 3-6 and Ray Cummins' sympathy point.

Ooh if my dad mentioned that match and point once yesterday, he mentioned it 15 times.. And then he loves to launch into the '83 final and how even though they went very optimistic they knew it couldnt be as bad as the previous year... And how it was.
But even he said yesterday was just as bad as them and one of the worst defeats he witnessed because back then even if it was a "quality team" it never really clicked and there was never much expectation but this team has one Munster Finals, and is one of the top 4 teams for the last few years.
They shouldnt be getting demolished so often.
But like obvs I wasnt born then so I cant get into detail about the match of '82, '83 just saying another persons opinion of it

Mega Chin wrote: »

I have the feeling (and the fear ) that we'll scrape by Galway by a point or 2 and then just get an absolute sh!t kicking off Kilkenny....

I am absolute terrified, my blind optimism returned to me this morning where I think we can beat Galway and restore some dignity, only for Kilkenny to thump us back to [insert favourite worst defeat- theres a few to choose form]
Really scared lawdss, really scared >.<

deiseach

Well that was . . . interesting. Can't imagine many of ye will want to relive it but you can read my meandering thoughts here

Deise Tom

Mountainlad wrote: »

Haha, Timmy Houlihan of Limerick? Is this just trying to substaniate claims of getting rid of Clinton? Houlihan was really great in 2004 when he dropped that ball in to the net against Cork in the munster semi final! I'm sure we'd all be much happier if he was our keeper :rolleyes:

I'm sure Adrian Power is looked at all the time. Look Davy has many a flaw but to be fair one thing you'd have to say is he knows what is involved in being a keeper. There must be some reason Power is not starting. I think I'll change my mind on this actually and say Power can wait til next year, and leave Clinton a final year as the number one, as he is getting a lot of irrational criticism born out of frustration. There was really nothing he could do about the goals yesterday, bar maybe 1. The puckouts were bad at the start, but I dunno what the strategy was and who we were trying to pick out with them.

I agree with you on Davy and goalkeeping, and he should know one when he sees one and therefore for that reason sticks with Clinton. re the puckouts, I am sure that the way he pucks out the ball is in accordance with davy's wishes, therefore we have to blame him once again on that front.

Jeddah

Find it hard to blame any of the players for yesterdays result. Sure alot of them didnt perform , but you would have to say that our 6 backs were set up wrong and given the wrong instructions. This isnt just in hindsight but it was clear to all from the stand that they needed to hold there shape , especially the full back line , and not get dragged all over the place. OK they would have probably conceeded alot of scores from out the field but it would have very much limited the amount of goals scored by Tipps forwards.

Anyway this would have changed the score but not the outcome. Tipp are far better side , and looking forward already to their clash with Kilkenny in the final.