DART+ (DART Expansion)

Economics101

Just to point out the futility of some recent posts, the new depot, inclufing sidings, will be several hundres meters long (500, 600?). Maybe one end is nearer Maynooth, and the other end nearer Kilcock. 😎

VonLuck

Have they started enabling works for DART+ West? I see Ashtown station has been cleared of a huge amount of vegetation around it, plus some excavations ongoing.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132019#Comment_122132019

Actually, 3.100 metres would be well within the limits. The engineering drawings all include the loading gauge diagram, and because it’s on a scale drawing, it’s reasonably easy to put actual dimensions onto it, so without further ado:

All measurements are in metres, lest there be any confusion;)

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132522#Comment_122132522

The distance marker I gave was the start of the depot, from the Maynooth end. It's going to be almost a mile/1.6km long!

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132658#Comment_122132658

They've already been taking measurements and marking out on platforms.

Would the Ashtown works have been vegetation cut back before the hedge cutting ban in March? More geared towards LRA later in the year?

That said, haven't been out that way in a while, so haven't seen any excavations. Maybe getting a start on removing the crossing.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134005#Comment_122134005

Thanks for that. Is the diagram showing the Irish loading guage or the dimensions of the new dart rolling stock? 3.4m is about 11' 2", or 1 foot wider than the previous widest rolling stock we've had in this country. I can't imagine it's anywhere near that, especially with the seating being 2+2. We could almost go 3+3 at that width. 🤣

goingnowhere

Max width at platform level, 915mm above rail is 3120mm, allowing for kinematic envelope etc you are down to something under 3000mm, ~2950 ish? so that lines up

Above 1000mm you are above the platform level so can overlap, thats the classic Park Royal coach

New Alstom stock is floor at 915mm so can't be more than ~2950mm wide, as it comes with plug doors that means the actual body width can be greater than the existing LHB which has doors hung outside

I can see Alstom having a world of pain with gauging of the new stock, i.e. the doors won't be able to open, not all platforms are 915mm

KrisW1001

@highdef it's a loading gauge. The engineers working on the project don't need to know what size the trains will be, only how much clearance they need to give them... and the design was probably done while the exact model of train wasn't known yet.

(Some of the other drawings also reveal the structure gauge, which is wider again.)

@goingnowhere . The station plans for the Spencer Dock station show the platforms are exactly 915mm above the rail. From the RO drawings for the station works, platforms at Connolly are between 850 and 915 mm high. Connolly would be the one place where it would be hugely disruptive to try to lower platforms, but raising them is pretty easy. However, as the new trains use extendable ramps for boarding, a slightly lower platform height is fine.

915 mm is clearly the standard height, and most IÉ platforms have been rebuilt in the last 30 years, so I'd be surprised if any were higher than this.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134061#Comment_122134061

Perhaps. They did cut down a lot of trees along the Ashtown to Pelletstown line before March, but I think some of the works at the station happened in April. Perhaps flouting the law!

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136357#Comment_122136357

Are you sure they were cut before the first of March? I don't think that was the case myself.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137703#Comment_122137703

You might be right. I am positive they were cut by mid-March but I can't recall when it actually happened.

Bray Head

The station works at Woodbrook seem to be advancing.

I think construction of a station here is a pity:

-will increase travel time to/from Bray. Bray to Pearse was 35 minutes in 1984 - in 2024 it's 42 minutes!

-catchment is 3/4 golf course or graveyard and always will be

-No connection with rest of PT network and park-and-ride potential limited

-I'd say it could have 300 passengers a day

Is this worth the additional delay to the 6,000 or so passengers using Bray and stations to the south?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140148#Comment_122140148

I'd suggest the golf courses time is limited.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140205#Comment_122140205

it would need a very attractive offer to get them to move. I know Greystones GC were made a land swap offer for their course (also a short, dated course on potentially extremely valuable land) and it was comprehensively rejected.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140401#Comment_122140401

I'd guess it'd have to be a cash offer, like the one Clontarf accepted (before they realised that they didn't own a large chunk of their course)

Bray Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140570#Comment_122140570

Bray Golf Course moved about 20 years ago as part of a sale and land swap. They went from nine to 18 holes and got much more interesting terrain.

You'd need a pretty incredible offer to get Woodbrook to move given they already have 18 holes and a lot of space.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140570#Comment_122140570

they can't offer cash directly to the members AFAIK, there's all sorts of tax implications.

The Woodbrook stop is designed to serve the new developments there which will have an eventual population of around 5000. Better to have them getting the Dart there, than getting in their cars and driving to Bray or Shankill.

Citizen Six

Yeah, it's going well. Had a quick look last week while out looking for golf balls on the tracks.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140148#Comment_122140148

Sort out the 20mph section near Dun Laoghaire, and you're all good. Time saved.

goingnowhere

A lot of land out there ready to be built on

"Permission for a Strategic Housing Development consisting of a residential-led development comprising 685no. residential units and 1 no. childcare facility in buildings ranging from 2 to 8-storeys. The breakdown of residential accommodation is as follows: - 207no. own door detached, semi-detached, terraced and end of terrace houses, including: - 134no. 3-bed 2-storey houses (House Type 01, 02, 03, 08, 10) - (House Type 01 are provided with optional ground floor extensions and/or attic conv.."

The journey time issue is quite complex

1984 driving style was pedal to the metal and let the ATP computer intervene, current practice is to avoid ATP interventions i.e. braking before ATP downgrades the speed target which is 30/50/90/100 kph which is coarse that adds a lot of time. Fewer stations and running shorter trains account for some of that as well.

The new ETCS L1 signalling will get back some of that lost time. With ETCS the driver gets shown the distance to the next red signal and the on train computer does the math to provide the braking curve. The signal spacing still assumes locomotive braked trains whereas a DART can halve those braking distances.

Its worth 20-30 seconds between Blackrock and Booterstown alone as the computer will see the signal beyond Booterstown as red to protect Merrion Gates and as the train will be stopping in Booterstown it will be well before the intervention curve so can blast along at full line speed, whereas the current ATP enforces 50kph at the distant signal.

It should put an end to the crawling into terminal stations and will really make a difference where trains are running under caution signals (almost always the case approaching level crossings) where a DART will almost be able to run at line speed into a yellow signal as what matters is that train speed is kept below the intervention curve required to stop at the next red signal with a safety margin.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140654#Comment_122140654

Rather than selling the whole course, Woodbrook could look to sell only the section north of the access road and west of the rail line, if they could rearrange the course to have 18 holes on the remaining grounds. There is also land south of the course and east of the rail line would they could potentially use. I'd say there will always be a lot of limitations on any development east of the rail line.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142659#Comment_122142659

interesting summary. Is there a reason the Dart often stops dead pulling into Bray and Greystones just as the driver reaches the platform, then proceeds the rest of the way? It doesn't happen every time, seems random (happens in Pearse occasionally as well).

One way they could get back a couple of minutes is dwell times, which are really slow on the Dart compared to any other commuter railway I've used elsewhere.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144733#Comment_122144733

They do it in Malahide too, I regularly see the train stop for a few seconds while traversing the points just outside the station before continuing on into the platform.

goingnowhere

Correct, when approaching the terminus, the train will be sequentially brought down from 100kph to 50kph and then to 30kph through crossovers and then 0kph at the platform, the driver then has to press a button and proceed at a walking pace to draw up.

Under the new system

Driver will be shown the distance to the next red signal (i.e. end of platform)

System will show the speed limits and distance to when they commence

On board computer will calculate an intervention curve (actually several) to bring the train down to the speed limit (in this case the physical limit is 30kph). So as the train approaches the terminus the driver is prompted to start slowing down, then told must brake and finally the computer takes over. So the driver should be braking before the must brake intervention.

The speed hook on the outer side of the speedometer will then start to track back towards 30kph or whatever the defined release speed where the driver is responsible. This will actually pretty much be the same as the current ATP except the hook in ETCS moves in a continuous motion back as a function of the trains speed and braking ability not in one big jump as the current kit.

Thankfully the train, the onboard ETCS and trackside ETCS are all by Alstom so integration shouldn't be a problem

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140148#Comment_122140148

I’d disagree. Yes the golf club and graveyard limits its use, but you are getting 5,000 there in direct population increase along with the existing population who are a bit marooned between Shankill and Bray.

I’d also suspect that this could have a positive impact on Bray traffic. It will divert some people north of the Dargle away from Bray Daly. Far easier to spin up there and drop someone to the DART than deal with Bray town centre.

Overall I’d say it is positive for Bray. An extra 2 to 3 minutes will be worth sacrificing here for the overall positive impact that the Woodbrook developments will have. DART was a huge selling point of the properties sold thus far and helped the prices (yeah I know in this environment that people will buy what they can, but this brings in a higher €€€ buyer). You are getting a huge number of well off young people and families moving to an area and they’ll have easy access to Bray town centre via the DART. Bray has already been improving but all of the developments at Woodbrook and also the Ballymore one close to the Harbour will only make the town more desirable and improve things.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144708#Comment_122144708

No chance. I believe they have just renewed the lease for 100 years with the land owners.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132522#Comment_122132522

Not so, I'm afraid. The end of the western most new depot trackwork will be almost exactly 1km from the market square of Kilcock but the eastern most tracks of the new depot will be over 2km from the beginning of Main Street in Maynooth, actually closer to 2.5km from the centre point of Main Street….all measurements are as the crow flies.

The western end of the depot will be literally across the road from the newer housing estates of Kilcock, the screenshot below shows the west end of the depot marked with a red X, in relation to Kilcock town.

What is futile is not extending the electrified line the short distance to Kilcock railway station. Bear in mind that the fare structure was changed at Kilcock recently as it had previously been treated as an intercity station in relation to fares but is now priced as per a DART journey so why not go that tiny bit further (figuratively and literally) and actually make it a DART station as well.

KrisW1001

This isn't the once and only DART upgrade. Kilcock can be revisited, but right now it would require a lot of work and rebuilding to add it to the line, and if you haven't spotted it already, DART+ had been designed to have as little planning risk as possible. I suspect that adding Kilcock station to the upgrade posed a risk of objections that could delay the whole thing, so it was shelved, to be revisited as a single project later, once the benefits of an electrified rail service are clearer to locals.

gjim

Yes, I think we all have a wishlist for we would have liked to see included in DART+ and superficially DART+ seems unambitious and initially even disappointing. But even in it’s current form it represents the biggest investment in heavy rail since the foundation of the state. As long as nothing in DART+ actually blocks future improvements, then my feeling is start building ASAP which means sticking to the current plan. This is just the first steps - we need to start thinking in terms of continuous improvement and investment and not in terms of big bang projects every 2 decades. DART+ represents a fine foundation for future expansion of electrified commuter rail for Dublin.

riddlinrussell

Also a separate project to include Kilcock has already been stated as underway, in this very thread no less