The Sub 3 Support Thread

squinn2912 · 07-03-2018 9:51pm

That seems like a very good plan lad I’d consider something like that again

snailsong · 08-03-2018 10:53am

OOnegative wrote: »

Djoucer wrote: »

Interesting question. Recently read that running MPs is pointless as it doesn't do a whole lot to improve your times. Either run faster or slower as mp is a sort of no man's land.

I've seen some plans that have little if any mp runs.

Personally, I aim to run the MPs a couple of seconds quicker per km. if you can run 6:50, should be able to stretch it to 6:45. It's a nice cushion mentally and allows you to relax a bit.

I find MPs a great confidence boost

I get you on the confidence boost as the friend i'm asking for lacks speed endurance somewhat when it comes to anything above 10 miles, i know running miles in training at sub 3 effort will not guarantee a sub 3 result but like you i'd like to think running them at few seconds quicker than sub 3 should give you some sort of cushion come race day.

I think the first thing your friend needs to do is run a good half which would indicate he's ready for a sub 3 shot. As you allude yourself, training at an inappropriately high intensity will not be a benefit. I think the vdot tables are helpful here. Training according to a vdot that is not reflected in your race times doesn't mean you will naturally assume that higher ability, quite the opposite.

I think of the marathon as a deity...We do the work, make the sacrifices, place our humble offerings at her feet. Hopefully she will smile upon us and reward us with good times. However if we demand something to which we are not rightfully entitled.....Well, a great vengeance may be visited upon us.

Thanks for indulging me.

OOnegative · 08-03-2018 11:05am

snailsong wrote: »

I think the first thing your friend needs to do is run a good half which would indicate he's ready for a sub 3 shot. As you allude yourself, training at an inappropriately high intensity will not be a benefit. I think the vdot tables are helpful here. Training according to a vdot that is not reflected in your race times doesn't mean you will naturally assume that higher ability, quite the opposite.

I think of the marathon as a deity...We do the work, make the sacrifices, place our humble offerings at her feet. Hopefully she will smile upon us and reward us with good times. However if we demand something to which we are not rightfully entitled.....Well, a great vengeance may be visited upon us.

Thanks for indulging me.

A good half time again may indicate sub 3 shape but as I have seen around here it doesn’t guarantee it. Few examples of lads around here running 1.21/1.22 halves and then struggling to break 3 hours for the marathon then on other hand there’s lads who run 1.27/1.28 halves and break 3 by few mins and more. Suppose it’s how each runner is wired, made for speed or speed endurance. And as you say the marathon can be a cruel mistress, you could have all the work for sub 3 in the bag but she fails to shine on you come race day.

snailsong · 08-03-2018 1:38pm

True, but most of us who are a few years at it have a fair idea of how our paces line up. I won't be attempting sub 3 until I run 1:25 or thereabouts for a half. It'd be nice to think I could take a short cut and start training as if I was in sub 3 shape, adjusting all my training paces accordingly. I know it won't work though.

Of course first I need to sort out my dodgy Achilles.

noelearly · 08-03-2018 1:48pm

OOnegative wrote: »

What is the consensus on MP miles in training? Is running MP miles at 6.50 leaving you to tight to the sub 3 line given many do fade in the 2nd half? Or is running MP miles in training at 6.40/45 a better option to get the body more use to the faster pace and hope for a less of a fade in the 2nd half after training at a faster level? Hope that makes sense.

Personally speaking always found it hard to do MP runs especially those that called for 8/10 mile MP long runs finishes. In my last cycle for Berlin I remember doing one that called for 8. Just couldn't do it, found myself breaking it down in 3/3/2 blocks with a few mins rest in between. Had no problem doing it in a half in Clonmel a few weeks later. Don't get caught up on it if you can't do it or don't read into it too much if you can. A training buddy of mine always blew me out the water on training runs but blew up himself on the day. Go with feel and use a half Marathon or 10 miler as a better indicator, throw it into the McMillan predictor calculator and you will know where you stand.

ultrapercy · 08-03-2018 2:30pm

Its worth reminding yourself of the purpose of your training and the purpose of each type of run within your training. Marathon paced or any other paced miles are a misnomer. The body doesnt recognise minutes and seconds but responds to effort. What feels like marathon effort at the end of a tough high volume training week can be very different to what it will feel like well fueled and rested on race day. I wouldnt force the pace down just to tick a box rather try to judge your effort level. I often ask myself during a mp training run 'can I hold this pace for 16 miles?' If yhe answere is yes I hold that pace for the run if not I slow it down a little. I would be confident if holding a 16 mile mp run pace on race day for the full distance. Now this might not be true for everyone but everyone can judge ans set their own parameters.

RayCun · 08-03-2018 7:04pm

If I thought I could hold the pace on a training run for 16 miles, I'd think it was too slow. I think the longest continuous marathon pace run I've ever done was 8 miles? And that was tough

(Did one of the P&D plans have a 10 or 12 mile MP run? And I did do 5,4,3,2,1 mp intervals)

Itziger · 08-03-2018 8:13pm

RayCun wrote: »

If I thought I could hold the pace on a training run for 16 miles, I'd think it was too slow. I think the longest continuous marathon pace run I've ever done was 8 miles? And that was tough

(Did one of the P&D plans have a 10 or 12 mile MP run? And I did do 5,4,3,2,1 mp intervals)

Funny that isn't it. 8 miles seems really low to me. I'd be going in to the race quaking if I'd only managed that in training. Yet the cycles where I've managed the longest at MP (I think it was 14 miles on a couple of occasions) I didn't do well on the day. Last year, when I ran my p.b. I switched to interval MP stuff. I had done one 20k or almost 13 mile effort at MP and it was very tough. So, having read the theory of doing splits I tried 3x8k and 3x9k. The 3x9 I took rests in between and people said they didn't think it was a great workout. Went away again, looked at what KC and some others were doing and went back and did the 3x8k but with 800metres or was it 2 minutes? of Steady between. This also proved tough but when you add it all up and take into consideration that the pace is only dropping a little bit in the Steady sections you end up with 25.x kms at very close to MP. Am I making any sense? The other important workout I found was another KC inspired one. It consists of MP/HMP (or at least faster than MP stuff) and might go from say 1k@MP/600metres@HMP x 5 or 6 or 7. No rest in there by the way. As Krusty explained it once, the brain gets to think, Yes, the 'easy' MP section when you move from the sharper Half Marathon pace to the slower Marathon bits. Of course the man himself does the hard version and I always do an easier version. So if he does 800mts@MP/800mts@HMP I'd do something like I mention above. This is known as a cop out but I'm me and he's him.
What this is proving once again is that there's no one-size-fits-all. I do know one of Boards most impressive 'amateur' marathon runners does 1 or 2 16 miles at MP in training. The straight through version!

Itziger · 08-03-2018 8:16pm

Jeez, what have I done?

overpronator · 09-03-2018 12:25am

Itziger wrote: »

Jeez, what have I done?

All advice is welcomed!!

rooneyjm · 09-03-2018 1:06am

Hanson Method has MP miles every week working up to 10miles from 6. The plan worked v well for Dublin last yr and I hit my target 3.10. I think the idea is these are part of 90-100k weeks towards the end, so they get you ready for the final 10miles, not the first 10.

Max run as per plan was 27k. I felt strong in the second half and passed a lot of people. The boost I got in speed endurance seemed to last well after the marathon as I got a 2 min pb in Wexford half (1.27.40), yet I didn’t do any speed or tempo work between the two races.
I’ll be trying it again for a sub 3 attempt

RayCun · 09-03-2018 7:50am

I always have a big difference between what I can do in training and what I can do in a race, more than most people I think. Not just marathon pace, but tempo pace too,.

Itziger · 09-03-2018 9:47am

That Hanson plan does sound interesting. Wasn't it Aero2 (or some such username) who did very well with it? I'm not sure it would suit me but I guess there's one obvious way to find that out.

OOnegative · 09-03-2018 9:48am

Itziger wrote: »

That Hanson plan does sound interesting. Wasn't it Aero2 (or some such username) who did very well with it? I'm not sure it would suit me but I guess there's one obvious way to find that out.

Yeah aero went sub 3 a few times using it as far as I can remember. Rotterdam being one attempt.

OOnegative · 09-03-2018 9:53am

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnodjI0eVd6UUV0Y0k/view?usp=sharing

aero’s Rotterdam 2015 marathon report from race reports thread.

Itziger · 09-03-2018 9:57am

OOnegative wrote: »

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnodjI0eVd6UUV0Y0k/view?usp=sharing

aero’s Rotterdam 2015 marathon report from race reports thread.

Jaysus, you're on the ball.

Itziger · 09-03-2018 10:17am

That's one epic read. Still the only race report containing the word uxoriousness as well.
Thanks for posting.

and still ricky villa · 09-03-2018 11:42am

I used Hanson's for Rotterdam last year and it worked well for the most part.
I was posting huge weeks (for me) of up to 100km
One thing I altered was the long run. With me it's a confidence thing and I can't believe I'll get through 26.2 miles if I haven't run at least 22 easy in training - but, as I say, that's just me. It might be that my first 5 or 6 marathons were run on Daniel's plans
I had a bit of time to play with so started the plan early which had me peaking the midweek MP runs at 16 miles.
And I was comfortable with that
A mixture of illness and heat put paid to my sub 3 effort but I still believe the 2:55 I had trained for was achievable if it hadn't been for bad luck that weekend

aero2k · 09-03-2018 4:07pm

Itziger wrote: »

That Hanson plan does sound interesting. Wasn't it Aero2 (or some such username) who did very well with it? I'm not sure it would suit me but I guess there's one obvious way to find that out.

OOnegative wrote: »

Yeah aero went sub 3 a few times using it as far as I can remember. Rotterdam being one attempt.

It all seems like a long time ago now though - I'm struggling to get past three miles, which is a bit different to trying to get below 3 hrs.

Yes, I did find the Hanson approach worked very well for me. I liked it because of the simplicity of the workouts, and the approach made sense given my aptitude - while I was always knackered at the end of a marathon, the real problem was not completing the distance, but completing it at the same pace that I started out at. From my mid 40's on I found that while high intensity workouts hurt more at the time, I recovered better from them than longer, gentler ones, so again that suited. Finally I liked the fact that the longest run was 1 hr 45 min, and I reckon I never went beyond 10 hrs per week including some core work. For anyone worried about the longest run being only 16 miles, remember you'll begin that on tired and tender legs, and on race day you'll be well rested.

dublin runner · 09-03-2018 7:32pm

I would argue that the plan works for the small minority. If you are you looking for a minimal effort plan, a plan for minimal gains, it may very well be the plan you for you. I see the Hanson plan as playing roulette with your marathon race day. It may work, it may not. It's a possible low perentage return from a high risk strategy policy.

Could it work for me? Very possibly. Then again I have developed a decent aerobic base from hundreds of real long runs and multiple marathons.

MrMacPhisto · 09-03-2018 10:24pm

I have used the Hanson plan, or slightly amended versions twice now. First time I trained for 2:55, achieved 2:52:xx. Second time, I trained for 2:48:xx and achieved 2:47:xx.

I think the plan best suits ppl that have completed a couple of marathons before and don't need the confidence of a couple of 32k/20mile runs.

I wouldn't call it a minimal effort plan. I needed the taper big time in comparison to when I have done P&D plans. It is a fairly fatiguing plan. There is a fair amount of MP miles, 8 weeks of speed work and 8 weeks of around HM pace tempo intervals. In my training, I did long runs of 27k, 29k, and 30k.

Of a sample of 3 ppl (me, Aero and Ricky), I think its pretty successful

I failed to go sub3 twice following P&D. However, there is no doubt that these prior training blocks gave me the base to achieve better things with the Hanson Plan.

rooneyjm · 09-03-2018 11:35pm

dublin runner wrote: »

I would argue that the plan works for the small minority. If you are you looking for a minimal effort plan, a plan for minimal gains, it may very well be the plan you for you. I see the Hanson plan as playing roulette with your marathon race day. It may work, it may not. It's a possible low perentage return from a high risk strategy policy.

Could it work for me? Very possibly. Then again I have developed a decent aerobic base from hundreds of real long runs and multiple marathons.

You can’t say running 6 days a week is minimal effort. I had my doubts about the plan towards the end when all around me were knocking out 20/22 milers. As they say “one swallow never made a summer” let’s see if I can do it for sub 3.

Safiri · 10-03-2018 1:28pm

dublin runner wrote: »

I would argue that the plan works for the small minority. If you are you looking for a minimal effort plan, a plan for minimal gains, it may very well be the plan you for you. I see the Hanson plan as playing roulette with your marathon race day. It may work, it may not. It's a possible low perentage return from a high risk strategy policy.

Could it work for me? Very possibly. Then again I have developed a decent aerobic base from hundreds of real long runs and multiple marathons.

The long run is controversial alright but it is only one facet of the plan. Compared to P+D, it is a much more marathon specific plan. The hanson elite group train very similar to it and that coaching method has produced athletes like Brian Sell(2:10 marathon) and desi linden(2nd in Chicago and Boston). A lot of people argue that the marathon long run is overrated and that total mileage is a better prediction of marathon fitness than anything else. I'd don't know the answer to that and it's probably an over-simplistic view of the training to look just at the long run or the total weekly mileage but you can't argue with results and it seems to produce them. I'd imagine from what I've seen of the plan is that it's something that you'd want to be disciplined on compared to P+D as the it is much more specific and closer to redline but that's always going to be the case when moving on to a more specific plan.

I guess that's the beauty of training, there is many ways to skin a cat and the only way to find out is trial and error. It's the same with any plan you try for the first time, you have to try it first to see if it works.

dublin runner · 10-03-2018 3:21pm

In terms of marathon programmes Hanson would be on the minimal side, that's not a negative remark, just a comment - this is a sub 3 thread after all. When compared to Magness, for example, it is definitely on the minimal side.

I guess his approach is the complete antithesis of my style of training and running so I just wanted to counter the argument.

Can it work? Totally. Anecdotally does it work for the majority? No. That's just my opinion though, not fact. I guess we only ever really hear of the success stories in the main.

That's the great thing about running - many different ways to approach the one distance!

Safiri · 10-03-2018 4:01pm

dublin runner wrote: »

In terms of marathon programmes Hanson would be on the minimal side, that's not a negative remark, just a comment - this is a sub 3 thread after all. When compared to Magness, for example, it is definitely on the minimal side.

I guess his approach is the complete antithesis of my style of training and running so I just wanted to counter the argument.

Can it work? Totally. Anecdotally does it work for the majority? No. That's just my opinion though, not fact. I guess we only ever really hear of the success stories in the main.

That's the great thing about running - many different ways to approach the one distance!

Yeah, that comparison is true. Magness definetely makes that hanson plan look minimal but the comparison isn't like for like in comparing a 100mile per week plan to a 60mpw plan. Hansons also have elite plans which would be a better comparison to Magness as he doesn't write plans for lower levels. The handon elite plans go up to 90-100mpw just like Magness plans, Brian Sell ran 160mpw under hansons and his plan would make Magness look like childsplay. Different levels and not like for like comparisons.

I agree with what you are saying in that aim high and you'll get better results but there has to be progression and wariness there too, how many people here could handle running 90-100 miles in a week right now? You have to look at ability level and current training volume, maybe down the road; many here would be prepared down the road but for many people aiming for sub-3; logging very high mileage isn't quite reachable right now and there has to be progression to it.

Enduro · 10-03-2018 11:23pm

OOnegative wrote: »

What is the consensus on MP miles in training? Is running MP miles at 6.50 leaving you to tight to the sub 3 line given many do fade in the 2nd half? Or is running MP miles in training at 6.40/45 a better option to get the body more use to the faster pace and hope for a less of a fade in the 2nd half after training at a faster level? Hope that makes sense.

Something here has been nagging at me. I

Hoping for "less of a fade" sounds like a terrible approach to my ears. It sounds like one step beyond "Fail to prepare : prepare to fail", more like "Prepare to fail : failure is inevitable".

The hope/plan should be steady even paced running at worst I would have thought. A competitive athlete would surely plan to have enough in the tank to negative split / race the finish.

hot buttered scones · 11-03-2018 12:06am

Enduro wrote:

The hope/plan should be steady even paced running at worst I would have thought. A competitive athlete would surely plan to have enough in the tank to negative split / race the finish.

I'd be hoping to start off within my capabilities and finish strong hopefully picking up pace, but definitely not wanting to slow down as the effort levels increase later in the race.
I have found the P+D type long run good for this i.e start off around MP+20% and pick up the pace gradually to finish off the last few miles at MP +10%. I suppose it gets you used to increased effort as the run goes on so that on race day it just comes naturally. The long MP runs were good too, but mostly as confidence builders I think - although you did notice it getting easier/faster training progressed. I'm probably responding to more than one post here though.
All that being said I've not run sub 3, or even attempted so maybe it'll be harder to do those type of sessions at that pace.

dublin runner · 11-03-2018 8:02pm

Safiri wrote: »

Yeah, that comparison is true. Magness definetely makes that hanson plan look minimal but the comparison isn't like for like in comparing a 100mile per week plan to a 60mpw plan. Hansons also have elite plans which would be a better comparison to Magness as he doesn't write plans for lower levels. The handon elite plans go up to 90-100mpw just like Magness plans, Brian Sell ran 160mpw under hansons and his plan would make Magness look like childsplay. Different levels and not like for like comparisons.

I agree with what you are saying in that aim high and you'll get better results but there has to be progression and wariness there too, how many people here could handle running 90-100 miles in a week right now? You have to look at ability level and current training volume, maybe down the road; many here would be prepared down the road but for many people aiming for sub-3; logging very high mileage isn't quite reachable right now and there has to be progression to it.

Yeah, fair point.

I have actually never completed the Magness schedule; peaking at 130mpw is beyond me.

Running is great in that, what you put in, you usually get back. Sure, we all have bad races and training runs but by and large, it's a very honest sport. I don't personally that plan discussed yields a high success rate, that is course of anecdotal point of view.

Sub 3 is a terrific target; tough but obtainable. Limiting oneself to a long run of 16 mile long run is not the prudent choice for example!

overpronator · 11-03-2018 9:44pm

It should be pointed out that Hanons coaching services (Luke Humphrey) who contrived the 16m long run plan have a full bread and butter marathon plan with 20 mile long runs etc. Peaks at 80 odd MPW. Where P&D 55-70 is a sub 3 plan this one is a step up. 2 meaty midweek sessions and a long run often with MP sections for a 3 session week.

It should also go without saying that the Elite Hansons distance project of Brian Sell, Desi Davila, Bobby Curtis, Mike Morgan, Sage Canaday and all the myriad of others never followed the 16 mile approach either, I sometimes think that point is lost.

kerrylad1 · 11-03-2018 10:05pm

An auld lad who was 2:40ish in the 80,s gave me a bit of advise,after I blew up going for sub 3:15 a few years ago.Told him,I followed some plan of a book.Ditch the book he said.Stop doing all those,5K,10K repeats.Your training for a marathon.Do loads and loads of MP miles and long slow runs.Do 5K and 10K repeats,whenever you decide to do a 5K/10K race.Someone said a few posts back,they know someone,who does 20 with 16 at MP twice in the cycle.I do the same,and so far it has worked out.

squinn2912 · 11-03-2018 10:34pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

An auld lad who was 2:40ish in the 80,s gave me a bit of advise,after I blew up going for sub 3:15 a few years ago.Told him,I followed some plan of a book.Ditch the book he said.Stop doing all those,5K,10K repeats.Your training for a marathon.Do loads and loads of MP miles and long slow runs.Do 5K and 10K repeats,whenever you decide to do a 5K/10K race.Someone said a few posts back,they know someone,who does 20 with 16 at MP twice in the cycle.I do the same,and so far it has worked out.

Sounds like a good plan

kerrylad1 · 11-03-2018 10:46pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Sounds like a good plan

How's training going squinn and have you a marathon lined up?

Safiri · 11-03-2018 10:53pm

overpronator wrote: »

It should be pointed out that Hanons coaching services (Luke Humphrey) who contrived the 16m long run plan have a full bread and butter marathon plan with 20 mile long runs etc. Peaks at 80 odd MPW. Where P&D 55-70 is a sub 3 plan this one is a step up. 2 meaty midweek sessions and a long run often with MP sections for a 3 session week.

It should also go without saying that the Elite Hansons distance project of Brian Sell, Desi Davila, Bobby Curtis, Mike Morgan, Sage Canaday and all the myriad of others never followed the 16 mile approach either, I sometimes think that point is lost.

The elite group of course ran more than 16 miles but the methodology is the same. The long run distance was de-emphasized in their training of Brian Sell, Desi and Sage. The mileage was spread more across the week and the long run was limited because Humphrey and the hansons didn't believe the mid-week mileage base was sufficient enough to support and get benefits from the longer long run. They also support the idea of only going 2 hours for a long run and this is fairly consistent across how the plan is interpreted and backed up by the books. At least compared to other generic plans.

Hansons athletes don't run the 24+ you see a lot of athletes who run 100mpw+ run. The long run is emphasised across the board and made to fit ability level based on the methodology.

Humprey was a serious athlete himself and an exercise physiologist who understands these principles and put them into action in the book to suit ability levels. Just because Brian Sell(a 2:10 marathon runner) runs 22 on a Sunday doesn't mean everyone else should. If Eliud Kipchoge or Moses Mosop does a 29 miler in base; should everyone else going for sub-3 do a 29 mile run despite them being 57 minutes faster over the marathon distance and running 130 miles in the week?

You have to look past the numbers to see the methodology in play in plans. You can't look at Brian Sell and say that's what a sub-3 runner should do; these guys are aerobic freaks with huge powers of recovery compared to a 3 hour runner. Humprey understood this and tailored the plans to ability and strength of the base of runners.

The 20 mile run is steeped in running folklore for the heady days of the 70's but that does not mean it's the only and right approach for everyone going by what we know now. People have to open their mind up to the possibility of other approaches and what they bring to the table rather than focusing on one facet of information rather than how it fits

I personally wouldn't use the hanson plan but I think people get stuck on the long run so much that they miss the woods for the trees.

squinn2912 · 11-03-2018 10:57pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Sounds like a good plan

How's training going squinn and have you a marathon lined up?

Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?

kerrylad1 · 11-03-2018 11:24pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?

Pity,u were in great form and all.Going good here now.Had a bit of a **** week,last week.Life just got in the way.was gona pull out of Manchester.Another boards runner,p32,text me to go for a run,which thankfully I did.I got back in mode then.I've a good few 20 milers with 13 to 16 MP under my belt allready.I'm aiming for 20 with 16 at 6:40/6:45 this Sunday.If I get that then I'm gona go for sub 3 in Manchester.If I feel like I'm gona blow up during Manchester,I will ease up and save myself for Limerick marathon 4 week's later.

squinn2912 · 11-03-2018 11:31pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?

Pity,u were in great form and all.Going good here now.Had a bit of a **** week,last week.Life just got in the way.was gona pull out of Manchester.Another boards runner,p32,text me to go for a run,which thankfully I did.I got back in mode then.I've a good few 20 milers with 13 to 16 MP under my belt allready.I'm aiming for 20 with 16 at 6:40/6:45 this Sunday.If I get that then I'm gona go for sub 3 in Manchester.If I feel like I'm gona blow up during Manchester,I will ease up and save myself for Limerick marathon 4 week's later.

Ah I know but what do you do? I’ll need to be careful going back up in miles now.
Do you really need todo as much as that tofeel you’ve got a sub3 in you?

kerrylad1 · 12-03-2018 8:21am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Ah I know but what do you do? I’ll need to be careful going back up in miles now.
Do you really need todo as much as that tofeel you’ve got a sub3 in you?

For me yes.For others,it's too much MP,and not enough of the short speed work. I just tried one of them plans,from a book years ago and blew up big time.It nearly put me off Marathon running to be honest.

squinn2912 · 12-03-2018 8:40am

Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?

kerrylad1 · 12-03-2018 11:17am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?

Yes.This week I will hope to do 50/55 miles before that MP session Sunday.All handy at 7:45 to 8min pace.I'm a bit worried about the sub 3 this time,since I did hardly nothing,one of the weeks,of my 12 week plan.Thursday week then,I will do a 5K timetrial.That will be the only speedwork of the 12 week plan.I think I used to do a 10K timetrial every 2nd week,a few years back,but I've become soft as I've gotten older.

overpronator · 12-03-2018 12:53pm

Safiri wrote: »

The elite group of course ran more than 16 miles but the methodology is the same. The long run distance was de-emphasized in their training of Brian Sell, Desi and Sage. The mileage was spread more across the week and the long run was limited because Humphrey and the hansons didn't believe the mid-week mileage base was sufficient enough to support and get benefits from the longer long run. They also support the idea of only going 2 hours for a long run and this is fairly consistent across how the plan is interpreted and backed up by the books. At least compared to other generic plans.

Hansons athletes don't run the 24+ you see a lot of athletes who run 100mpw+ run. The long run is emphasised across the board and made to fit ability level based on the methodology.

Humprey was a serious athlete himself and an exercise physiologist who understands these principles and put them into action in the book to suit ability levels. Just because Brian Sell(a 2:10 marathon runner) runs 22 on a Sunday doesn't mean everyone else should. If Eliud Kipchoge or Moses Mosop does a 29 miler in base; should everyone else going for sub-3 do a 29 mile run despite them being 57 minutes faster over the marathon distance and running 130 miles in the week?

You have to look past the numbers to see the methodology in play in plans. You can't look at Brian Sell and say that's what a sub-3 runner should do; these guys are aerobic freaks with huge powers of recovery compared to a 3 hour runner. Humprey understood this and tailored the plans to ability and strength of the base of runners.

The 20 mile run is steeped in running folklore for the heady days of the 70's but that does not mean it's the only and right approach for everyone going by what we know now. People have to open their mind up to the possibility of other approaches and what they bring to the table rather than focusing on one facet of information rather than how it fits

I personally wouldn't use the hanson plan but I think people get stuck on the long run so much that they miss the woods for the trees.

I realise all of this, was just letting others know a bit more about Hansons coaching, in general, just in case they werent aware.

Not criticizing the 16 mile plan, ive never followed it so have no insight there.

As you say, many ways to skin a cat.

Safiri · 12-03-2018 1:01pm

overpronator wrote: »

I realise all of this, was just letting others know a bit more about Hansons coaching, in general, just in case they werent aware.

Not criticizing the 16 mile plan, ive never followed it so have no insight there.

As you say, many ways to skin a cat.

Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your post. Apoligies.

overpronator · 12-03-2018 1:08pm

Safiri wrote: »

Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your post. Apoligies.

None required man, good to see you back;)

squinn2912 · 12-03-2018 1:20pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?

Yes.This week I will hope to do 50/55 miles before that MP session Sunday.All handy at 7:45 to 8min pace.I'm a bit worried about the sub 3 this time,since I did hardly nothing,one of the weeks,of my 12 week plan.Thursday week then,I will do a 5K timetrial.That will be the only speedwork of the 12 week plan.I think I used to do a 10K timetrial every 2nd week,a few years back,but I've become soft as I've gotten older.

Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice

kerrylad1 · 13-03-2018 7:56am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice

Squinn,if it's sore after 5 easy miles,you will have to just rest.If you end up with a full blown tear,you could be out for months.With the progress you have made in the last few months thats the last thing you need.

squinn2912 · 13-03-2018 9:39am

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice

Squinn,if it's sore after 5 easy miles,you will have to just rest.If you end up with a full blown tear,you could be out for months.With the progress you have made in the last few months thats the last thing you need.

You’re 100% right. My Physio told me to run last week to 75% but I know I’m not able to do that. I’m seeing him today again and if I leave it until around the weekend I should be closer by then. Hateful feeling all your fitness vanish!

OOnegative · 13-03-2018 7:47pm

Enduro wrote: »

Something here has been nagging at me. I

Hoping for "less of a fade" sounds like a terrible approach to my ears. It sounds like one step beyond "Fail to prepare : prepare to fail", more like "Prepare to fail : failure is inevitable".

The hope/plan should be steady even paced running at worst I would have thought. A competitive athlete would surely plan to have enough in the tank to negative split / race the finish.

I wasn’t ‘hoping’ for less of a fade, I was asking the best way to counteract a fade. Unfortunately not all of us are as talented and naturally gifted when it comes to running as yourself. My question was a bit all over the place in truth, I got the answer to it Sunday afternoon in any sense.

Enduro · 13-03-2018 11:46pm

OOnegative wrote: »

I wasn’t ‘hoping’ for less of a fade, I was asking the best way to counteract a fade. Unfortunately not all of us are as talented and naturally gifted when it comes to running as yourself. My question was a bit all over the place in truth, I got the answer to it Sunday afternoon in any sense.

Fair enough. My apologies if I was misinterpreting. It's not uncommon at all to hear of people planning to go at hard and then hang on for the finish. The vast majority of ultrarunners probably do.

As to how to counteract fade. I'd say self knowledge and discipline are the keys.

Self knowledge being the ability to "feel" out the correct pace for the marathon on the day, and also knowing your realistic optimal achievable target pace. (For my first marathon I figured out my target pace by judging my ability against my training partners and their marathon PBs. I had no idea what my actual speed was as I had never measured it... there's more than one way to skin that cat)

Discipline is obvious... holding that too slow and easy pace for the first half (or longer), whilst people cruise away from you. In fairness, I think most people on this thread have the discipline to follow a target pace to hit a target time.

OOnegative · 13-03-2018 11:58pm

Enduro wrote: »

Fair enough. My apologies if I was misinterpreting. It's not uncommon at all to hear of people planning to go at hard and then hang on for the finish. The vast majority of ultrarunners probably do.

As to how to counteract fade. I'd say self knowledge and discipline are the keys.

Self knowledge being the ability to "feel" out the correct pace for the marathon on the day, and also knowing your realistic optimal achievable target pace. (For my first marathon I figured out my target pace by judging my ability against my training partners and their marathon PBs. I had no idea what my actual speed was as I had never measured it... there's more than one way to skin that cat)

Discipline is obvious... holding that too slow and easy pace for the first half (or longer), whilst people cruise away from you. In fairness, I think most people on this thread have the discipline to follow a target pace to hit a target time.

You ran sub 3 in your first marathon, no? What would you advise someone chasing there first sub 3 off the knowledge you have?

Edit: I appreciate we are all different when it comes to training.

squinn2912 · 14-03-2018 12:12am

Not that I’m any big shakes but for my first sub3 I’d spent most of the programme healing niggles caused by a glute that was weak. I got my miles in and some mp miles but little more than that. On the day I ran a 1:32 first half and gradually clawed it back and cane in a minute under.
I’m saying this not because I’d go for it again like that but to illustrate that even in unlikely circumstances it can happen for you. I got it that time because I didn’t give in, I backed myself and I didn’t listen to those who told me all I was doing wrong. Then I ran with a bit of anger.
Back yourself, train well and on race day be smart. Go and get it.

EC1000 · 20-03-2018 2:40pm

I had a calf injury that stopped me running from Christmas until the end of February so had ruled out any attempt at sub 3 in Rotterdam and had considered maybe just running Rotterdam as a long run and trying again at Limerick in a few weeks. However, I managed to unexpectedly run 1:23:5X in Mullingar at the weekend so in two minds now.

I've missed a lot of endurance base so probably going to wait. Patience is the toughest skill to master when it comes to running. Anyone have any experience of Limerick - would there be any sort of decent numbers in the 2:59 group to hang on to?

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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