zulutango wrote: » I think I'm capable of doing a sub 3 based on other performances. My most recent race was a HM in October where I did 1:25:27. I took a bit of a break after that, so fitness definitely dropped a bit. I'm currently training for Limerick and it's going alright. I feel that I'm behind though, and that 3 hours probably isn't realistic, and I'm ok with that. I'd be happy with 3:10 or even 3:15 so long as I am building steadily towards a 3 hour marathon this year at some point. I ran an 18 miler last weekend at 8:01 per mile. I was fairly well spent after it though. I couldn't have gone further if I'd wanted to. I'm just thinking, maybe running the long runs too fast, and it makes more sense to ease off the pace (even though it feels slow)?
squinn2912 wrote: » Had almost a month off after doing 1:24:04 in a half there. Nothing was essentially injured but everything had tightened up. I’m going to try to fast track a plan to get into sub3 shape for Derry in just under 11 weeks. If I don’t have the legs on the big day I’ll not be too annoyed I’m looking forward to a no pressure crack at it
noelearly wrote: » If you don't manage it you have a ready made excuse, no psychological damage done.
EC1000 wrote: » I had a calf injury that stopped me running from Christmas until the end of February so had ruled out any attempt at sub 3 in Rotterdam and had considered maybe just running Rotterdam as a long run and trying again at Limerick in a few weeks. However, I managed to unexpectedly run 1:23:5X in Mullingar at the weekend so in two minds now. I've missed a lot of endurance base so probably going to wait. Patience is the toughest skill to master when it comes to running. Anyone have any experience of Limerick - would there be any sort of decent numbers in the 2:59 group to hang on to?
Enduro wrote: » Fair enough. My apologies if I was misinterpreting. It's not uncommon at all to hear of people planning to go at hard and then hang on for the finish. The vast majority of ultrarunners probably do. As to how to counteract fade. I'd say self knowledge and discipline are the keys. Self knowledge being the ability to "feel" out the correct pace for the marathon on the day, and also knowing your realistic optimal achievable target pace. (For my first marathon I figured out my target pace by judging my ability against my training partners and their marathon PBs. I had no idea what my actual speed was as I had never measured it... there's more than one way to skin that cat) Discipline is obvious... holding that too slow and easy pace for the first half (or longer), whilst people cruise away from you. In fairness, I think most people on this thread have the discipline to follow a target pace to hit a target time.
OOnegative wrote: » I wasn’t ‘hoping’ for less of a fade, I was asking the best way to counteract a fade. Unfortunately not all of us are as talented and naturally gifted when it comes to running as yourself. My question was a bit all over the place in truth, I got the answer to it Sunday afternoon in any sense.
Enduro wrote: » Something here has been nagging at me. I Hoping for "less of a fade" sounds like a terrible approach to my ears. It sounds like one step beyond "Fail to prepare : prepare to fail", more like "Prepare to fail : failure is inevitable". The hope/plan should be steady even paced running at worst I would have thought. A competitive athlete would surely plan to have enough in the tank to negative split / race the finish.
kerrylad1 wrote: » squinn2912 wrote: » Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice Squinn,if it's sore after 5 easy miles,you will have to just rest.If you end up with a full blown tear,you could be out for months.With the progress you have made in the last few months thats the last thing you need.
squinn2912 wrote: » Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice
kerrylad1 wrote: » squinn2912 wrote: » Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend? Yes.This week I will hope to do 50/55 miles before that MP session Sunday.All handy at 7:45 to 8min pace.I'm a bit worried about the sub 3 this time,since I did hardly nothing,one of the weeks,of my 12 week plan.Thursday week then,I will do a 5K timetrial.That will be the only speedwork of the 12 week plan.I think I used to do a 10K timetrial every 2nd week,a few years back,but I've become soft as I've gotten older.
squinn2912 wrote: » Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?
Safiri wrote: » Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your post. Apoligies.
overpronator wrote: » I realise all of this, was just letting others know a bit more about Hansons coaching, in general, just in case they werent aware. Not criticizing the 16 mile plan, ive never followed it so have no insight there. As you say, many ways to skin a cat.
Safiri wrote: » The elite group of course ran more than 16 miles but the methodology is the same. The long run distance was de-emphasized in their training of Brian Sell, Desi and Sage. The mileage was spread more across the week and the long run was limited because Humphrey and the hansons didn't believe the mid-week mileage base was sufficient enough to support and get benefits from the longer long run. They also support the idea of only going 2 hours for a long run and this is fairly consistent across how the plan is interpreted and backed up by the books. At least compared to other generic plans. Hansons athletes don't run the 24+ you see a lot of athletes who run 100mpw+ run. The long run is emphasised across the board and made to fit ability level based on the methodology. Humprey was a serious athlete himself and an exercise physiologist who understands these principles and put them into action in the book to suit ability levels. Just because Brian Sell(a 2:10 marathon runner) runs 22 on a Sunday doesn't mean everyone else should. If Eliud Kipchoge or Moses Mosop does a 29 miler in base; should everyone else going for sub-3 do a 29 mile run despite them being 57 minutes faster over the marathon distance and running 130 miles in the week? You have to look past the numbers to see the methodology in play in plans. You can't look at Brian Sell and say that's what a sub-3 runner should do; these guys are aerobic freaks with huge powers of recovery compared to a 3 hour runner. Humprey understood this and tailored the plans to ability and strength of the base of runners. The 20 mile run is steeped in running folklore for the heady days of the 70's but that does not mean it's the only and right approach for everyone going by what we know now. People have to open their mind up to the possibility of other approaches and what they bring to the table rather than focusing on one facet of information rather than how it fits I personally wouldn't use the hanson plan but I think people get stuck on the long run so much that they miss the woods for the trees.
squinn2912 wrote: » Ah I know but what do you do? I’ll need to be careful going back up in miles now. Do you really need todo as much as that tofeel you’ve got a sub3 in you?
kerrylad1 wrote: » squinn2912 wrote: » Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you? Pity,u were in great form and all.Going good here now.Had a bit of a **** week,last week.Life just got in the way.was gona pull out of Manchester.Another boards runner,p32,text me to go for a run,which thankfully I did.I got back in mode then.I've a good few 20 milers with 13 to 16 MP under my belt allready.I'm aiming for 20 with 16 at 6:40/6:45 this Sunday.If I get that then I'm gona go for sub 3 in Manchester.If I feel like I'm gona blow up during Manchester,I will ease up and save myself for Limerick marathon 4 week's later.
squinn2912 wrote: » Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?
kerrylad1 wrote: » squinn2912 wrote: » Sounds like a good plan How's training going squinn and have you a marathon lined up?
squinn2912 wrote: » Sounds like a good plan
overpronator wrote: » It should be pointed out that Hanons coaching services (Luke Humphrey) who contrived the 16m long run plan have a full bread and butter marathon plan with 20 mile long runs etc. Peaks at 80 odd MPW. Where P&D 55-70 is a sub 3 plan this one is a step up. 2 meaty midweek sessions and a long run often with MP sections for a 3 session week. It should also go without saying that the Elite Hansons distance project of Brian Sell, Desi Davila, Bobby Curtis, Mike Morgan, Sage Canaday and all the myriad of others never followed the 16 mile approach either, I sometimes think that point is lost.
