The Sub 3 Support Thread

sideswipe

20 weeks on Sunday until Frankfurt & Dublin.
At a bit of a crossroads about how to approach that time so any thoughts much appreciated.

The options I'm mulling over are-

a) P&D 18 week (55-70 mile) tweaked to suit club sessions (1 a week which is usually 5k type sessions) and more MP miles which I think they are lacking in.

b) spend the next 8 weeks working on 10k, half marathon type work before doing a 12 week P&D.
Have got my 5k down to 18:47 and 10k to 39:30 over the last year. My Half time is very soft- 1:30:30 but I haven't raced or trained for one for a long time.

c) forget about a marathon altogether this year and really go for it with the short stuff making a half the goal race for the autumn. I was thinking maybe I could build on that then to make a spring marathon the first sub 3 attempt.

Bottom line is I'm a bit concerned my times don't translate well to having a bash just yet!

Edit: I should add my pb is 3:07:48 from Frankfurt last year

Krusty_Clown

sideswipe wrote: »

Bottom line is I'm a bit concerned my times don't translate well to having a bash just yet!
Edit: I should add my pb is 3:07:48 from Frankfurt last year

Your PB of 3:07:48 definitely suggests you could have a bash and don't let your shorter distance achievements convince you otherwise.

In my view, the stronger arguments for following a 12 week marathon plan are if you have already established a decent base (you've recently completed a marathon cycle and for whatever reason are ready to go again), or you've completed a high intensity program (e.g. 10k), are in a highly trained state, and only need to work on fine tuning one or two of the key marathon ingredients (speed, endurance, and speed/endurance). In my opinion, if you're not going from a fairly highly trained state, you might be better off with a longer program (18+ weeks). So either go into a 10k program with a view to leveraging this into your marathon program (perhaps tweaking the 10k program to supplement the mileage), or go for a longer marathon program and just commit to it fully.

If you need to fit in club sessions then swap them out for similar style sessions in the marathon program and try not to miss out on marathon program sessions that depend on a linear progression.

sideswipe

Thanks for input KC.
I joined a club in Jan and have been running 50+ miles a week average doing the club sessions as well as the McMillan 10k sessions- was sick before the target 10k at the GIR but was happy enough with 39:48 on a tough course. I wouldn't say I'm highly trained by am in a pretty good place- I'm leaning towards the 12 weeks plan........

hot buttered scones

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Your PB of 3:07:48 definitely suggests you could have a bash and don't let your shorter distance achievements convince you otherwise.

In my view, the stronger arguments for following a 12 week marathon plan are if you have already established a decent base (you've recently completed a marathon cycle and for whatever reason are ready to go again), or you've completed a high intensity program (e.g. 10k), are in a highly trained state, and only need to work on fine tuning one or two of the key marathon ingredients (speed, endurance, and speed/endurance). In my opinion, if you're not going from a fairly highly trained state, you might be better off with a longer program (18+ weeks). So either go into a 10k program with a view to leveraging this into your marathon program (perhaps tweaking the 10k program to supplement the mileage), or go for a longer marathon program and just commit to it fully.

If you need to fit in club sessions then swap them out for similar style sessions in the marathon program and try not to miss out on marathon program sessions that depend on a linear progression.

Sorry to butt in here - but I have small question relating to the above. What do you recommend if you have e.g 8 weeks from marathon no 1 to the start of a 12 week programme for marathon no 2. I'm thinking a few weeks recovery and a few weeks getting the mileage back up (with maybe one or two shorter races) - or something like that. My goal isn't sub 3 though, but I've recently completed a marathon and would hope to be ready to go again in a say 4 weeks time.

ger664

Sideswipe
A sub 19 5K to me would suggest you have the speed part for a bash at sub 3. I would do the 10K followed by the 12 week plan but really concentrate MP sessions

pgarr

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Sorry to butt in here - but I have small question relating to the above. What do you recommend if you have e.g 8 weeks from marathon no 1 to the start of a 12 week programme for marathon no 2. I'm thinking a few weeks recovery and a few weeks getting the mileage back up (with maybe one or two shorter races) - or something like that. My goal isn't sub 3 though, but I've recently completed a marathon and would hope to be ready to go again in a say 4 weeks time.

Hi scones,

I'm in a similar boat - 18 weeks between a race and the next marathon .

My approach has been :

• 2 weeks off completely
• 4 weeks base building (up to where i can start a 12 week at the prescribed week 1 mileage. In my case - I did 62 miles last week for final base building. This week is week 1 of 12 week @ 66 miles)
• 12 week plan

Im not an experienced runner and cannot tell you how well this will work until after the marathon


Happy training!

sideswipe

ger664 wrote: »

Sideswipe
A sub 19 5K to me would suggest you have the speed part for a bash at sub 3. I would do the 10K followed by the 12 week plan but really concentrate MP sessions

Thanks ger, think thats exactly what I think I'll do- I always said when I do go for a sub 3 I'll train for 2:55 for some wiggle room- just need to get a good summer of training in and see were I'm at come October!

Krusty_Clown

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Sorry to butt in here - but I have small question relating to the above. What do you recommend if you have e.g 8 weeks from marathon no 1 to the start of a 12 week programme for marathon no 2. I'm thinking a few weeks recovery and a few weeks getting the mileage back up (with maybe one or two shorter races) - or something like that. My goal isn't sub 3 though, but I've recently completed a marathon and would hope to be ready to go again in a say 4 weeks time.

Because 12 weeks isn't a substantial amount of time, what you should be doing in the 8 previous weeks available, should be aligned with hitting the marathon program running (so to speak). The problem with most 10k programs (and it's not a problem if your goal is to run your best 10k!), is that they are focused on that specific outcome, which typically means that that there will be little emphasis on endurance and any long or sustained pace runs will taper off over the last few weeks.

It's been a while since I followed a P&D program (or leafed through the book), but IIRC there were a very specific preamble to the 12 week programs that discussed where they were relevant and who could/should follow-them. Anyone have the book to hand and care to provide a summary?

hot buttered scones

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Because 12 weeks isn't a substantial amount of time, what you should be doing in the 8 previous weeks available, should be aligned with hitting the marathon program running (so to speak). The problem with most 10k programs (and it's not a problem if your goal is to run your best 10k!), is that they are focused on that specific outcome, which typically means that that there will be little emphasis on endurance and any long or sustained pace runs will taper off over the last few weeks.

It's been a while since I followed a P&D program (or leafed through the book), but IIRC there were a very specific preamble to the 12 week programs that discussed where they were relevant and who could/should follow-them. Anyone have the book to hand and care to provide a summary?

It basically just says to use the 12 week programme if you don't have 18 weeks, but warns that your preparation won't be as thorough. I should probably be posting this in the marathon improver thread as my goal is not sub 3 (yet) -far from it, but your original post caught my eye. To be more specific about my own case - I just ran the full in Cork having trained for 16 weeks. I was going to follow a P+D recovery plan (5 weeks to build to the mileage for the first week of a 12 week plan) but then there's 3 weeks between that and the start of the 12 week plan - so I was thinking maintain the mileage, increase the long run and do a couple of shorter midweek races (4 and 5 miles) in the interim 3 weeks. I'm also off on Holidays and I don't want to start a training plan when I'm away and still recovering from Cork. I've another couple of ideas, but I'll post them in the improvers thread.

sideswipe

I don't think there is a very specific preamble to doing the 12 week. They just say the 18 week is optimal but they have included a 12 week plan because-

"at times, however, you simply don't have 18 weeks to prepare for your marathon. The 12 week schedule includes the same mesocycles as the 18 week schedules , but because of the short time for preparation, each of these mesocycles is abbreviated."

"The 12-week schedule takes into account that sometimes circumstances don't allow you the optimal length of time for preparation"

pgarr

Hi all,

I was looking for some opinions on my current sub 3 attempt.

Some background - I have no real speed training experience and am currently club less. In my last training cycle for the Connemara Ultra marathon I was running tempo miles in the range of 6.10 -> 6.30 per mile ;

My target is 2 hours 45 minutes (6:17 per mile) in Longford on August 27th. I'm doing the AM 70 to 85 per week 12 week plan.

I just finished week 1 - which has the below workout :

17 miles w 8 @ MP

My splits for the 8 miles during my workout were :

Mile 10 : 6:22
Mile 11 : 6:12
Mile 12 : 6:21
Mile 13 : 6:24
Mile 14 : 6:28
Mile 15 : 6:11
Mile 16 : 6:29
Mile 17 : 6:18

Hr average of around 90% of max through the 8 miles. Going really hard on the last 1 and I was shocked to see I only managed a 6:18 on my polar splits on the last mile to finish.

I felt no excessive lactate build up at that hr (hitting 95% at one point on mile 16 where climbs are worst).

*I didn't take any nutrition / hydrate during the run (placed my water and gel in the wrong spot on my route and didn't want to stop mid MP mile)

• Question : Do the above splits suggest I should adjust my goals ? I was pushing and only just keeping around my goal pace.
  
  I am trying to push the envelope with this training cycle and am not married to my target time. I am using it as a high benchmark to better determine what I am capable of.

• Question : For anyone who has used the AM plans before - how comfortable / uncomfortable were you with the MP miles during long runs? Did you find maintaining it hard?

Appreciate any feedback on this

Krusty_Clown

AM = Advanced Marathoning?

You'll be fine.. 17 miles w 8 @ MP in week 1 is a really big ask, so if you struggled, that's absolutely to be expected. I tend to struggle through most of those long MP sessions, and doing it with no water/nutrition bodes well. Plenty of time to refine your goal.

Itziger

Pgarr, I'd agree with Krusty on that session in week 1. If I were to do that plan I'd lead up to it, so that it would be a false Week 1 in reality. I'd look to do at least a 5 miler at MP before this workout. I know you've done some decent base work but jumping into 8 miles ..........

I was chatting to a friend the other day and he reminded me of a training run I did a few months back. 20k @ MP after 8k of Easy I think. He accompanied me on the bike for a few of the MP kms. Jaysus, I was working very hard to maintain. Before anyone says, ah but that was 12 miles, I had done shorter stuff in previous weeks so was in a good enough spot for the session. It worried me at the time but as people have pointed out here, it's never about one or two workouts. If the whole programme or lots of the key sessions are proving too tough, then it's time to worry, sorry, adapt.

And also, you'll be fine!

pgarr

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

AM = Advanced Marathoning?

You'll be fine.. 17 miles w 8 @ MP in week 1 is a really big ask, so if you struggled, that's absolutely to be expected. I tend to struggle through most of those long MP sessions, and doing it with no water/nutrition bodes well. Plenty of time to refine your goal.

Thanks for the feedback Krusty.

Yes it's an advanced marathoning plan I'm following . As you say there is a lot of time to refine and define . Looking forward to it !

pgarr

Itziger wrote: »

Pgarr, I'd agree with Krusty on that session in week 1. If I were to do that plan I'd lead up to it, so that it would be a false Week 1 in reality. I'd look to do at least a 5 miler at MP before this workout. I know you've done some decent base work but jumping into 8 miles ..........

I was chatting to a friend the other day and he reminded me of a training run I did a few months back. 20k @ MP after 8k of Easy I think. He accompanied me on the bike for a few of the MP kms. Jaysus, I was working very hard to maintain. Before anyone says, ah but that was 12 miles, I had done shorter stuff in previous weeks so was in a good enough spot for the session. It worried me at the time but as people have pointed out here, it's never about one or two workouts. If the whole programme or lots of the key sessions are proving too tough, then it's time to worry, sorry, adapt.

And also, you'll be fine!

You raise a valid point Itziger. I had not ran any miles sub 7 since connemara in April so it makes sense it would be tough to maintain purely from running economy.

Sneaking in a preparation run is a great idea (wish I had thought of it).

Thanks for the input ðŸ˜

dublin runner

'Marathon pace', the perenial question.

I've been in your boat, not knowing what marathon pace or indeed what marathon effort is. In my opinion the latter of the two is key: marathon effort. Until very recently, my pace was based on an arbitrary time target. Only over the last 16 months, and one or two disasters, have I the experience to know how I should feel in training and on race day itself.

In your case I would honestly dial back the pace. That does not mean you won't run 2.44, it just means at the moment you need more training under your belt. Personally, I would rather be on an upward curve (pace-wise) than constantly over egging the omelette! Sure, it may work but the risk in certainly higher in my opinion.

pgarr

dublin runner wrote: »

'Marathon pace', the perenial question.

I've been in your boat, not knowing what marathon pace or indeed what marathon effort is. In my opinion the latter of the two is key: marathon effort. Until very recently, my pace was based on an arbitrary time target. Only over the last 16 months, and one or two disasters, have I the experience to know how I should feel in training and on race day itself.

In your case I would honestly dial back the pace. That does not mean you won't run 2.44, it just means at the moment you need more training under your belt. Personally, I would rather be on an upward curve (pace-wise) than constantly over egging the omelette! Sure, it may work but the risk in certainly higher in my opinion.

Thanks for the input dublin runner. I've been flicking through your blog and it's an amazing read!! You have some amazing accomplishments under your belt - congrats

I think in line with what the others have said I will continue as planned and see how the next MP long run goes Sunday week. I'll have a better sample to refer to than a single workout.

You are bang on in that 2.44 doesn't have to happen in august, or even in 2018. I am very much respectful of running and longevity is very important to me. Running is far more than an arbitrary time goal - that time is simply a means to help define targets and motivate. I will re - adjust if my body / the logs are showing a pattern.

pgarr

I just read through the majority of this thread. It's absolutely essential reading if you're pondering the target of a sub 3 marathon.

The advise given (specific workouts, targets, plans for next cycle, what's worked for some / hasn't for others) and experiences told (stuff like Itziger and TFBubendorfer not giving up and learning and improving to hit their targets) are phenomenal.

Krusty_Clown is practically coaching in here for free

I feel so pumped now in my own attempts to join the club

Itziger

pgarr wrote: »

I just read through the majority of this thread. It's absolutely essential reading if you're pondering the target of a sub 3 marathon.

The advise given (specific workouts, targets, plans for next cycle, what's worked for some / hasn't for others) and experiences told (stuff like Itziger and TFBubendorfer not giving up and learning and improving to hit their targets) are phenomenal.

Krusty_Clown is practically coaching in here for free

I feel so pumped now in my own attempts to join the club

Jeez, I'm in a comment with Krusty and TFB!!!

You're right about the free coaching though. That guy is invaluable.

As for you, just keep it steady and you'll be leaving the sub 3 group fairly soon

ooter

Struggled to hit 5 x 6:50 miles in the Irish runner 5 mile yesterday, really hits home what is required to bag a sub 3 hour Marathon.

El Caballo

I'm going to have go. At the training anyway and hopefully end up in shape to run on the right side of 3 hours. I've no delusions about it working perfectly as the time frame is short and I'm coming from a weak base so running a good marathon is the priority whether that's under 3 or over 3 and is something that I'll consider as the race gets closer. But I have to admit that nothing gets me motivated like a 2:xx marathon right now so if I have to live in dreamland of achieving that over the next few months to get me out the door everyday to train, I'll happily do it whether I can or can't:pac:

My mileage peak is probably going to be a lot higher than I've ever had going into a marathon before but overall, the training is going to be pretty simple and a case of get out the door and get it done. Racing schedule is also going to be light with a few races coming up soon just to gauge my fitness levels and then a break before hitting my buildup races in late August/September. Something like this:

Waterford Viking Half(June 24th)
Coillte 10k(July 5th)
Curraghchase 10k(August 20th)
Charleville Half(September 17th)

PB's:

1500m: 5:01(2015)
3000m: 10:45(2014)
5k: 18:34(2013)
10k: 39:46(2014)
10m: 65:34(2014)
Half: 1:26:26(2013)
Marathon: 3:15:29(2013)


As is clear from above, endurance is my biggest hurdle in attacking a sub-3 which is why I'm foregoing a racing heavy schedule like I normally would to get more focus on my long runs and weekly mileage. My schedule will build up to 6 or 7 days a week running and hopefully that will get me in the shape I need to be, whether it does is another question as time is probably not on my side coming from the level of fitness I'm at right now although I should get a better grasp after the half next weekend.

ooter

Best of luck with it el caballo, I have almost identical HM and marathon PB's from 2014 so will be interested to see how you get on.
Have you got a particular marathon in mind, DCM?

El Caballo

ooter wrote: »

Best of luck with it el caballo, I have almost identical HM and marathon PB's from 2014 so will be interested to see how you get on.
Have you got a particular marathon in mind, DCM?

Cheers ooter. Yeah, forgot to say it's the DCM. Can't beat the familar athomsphere and people.

Duanington

El Caballo wrote: »

But I have to admit that nothing gets me motivated like a 2:xx marathon right now

Great starting point - bottle that motivation man, take a sip or two over the next few months when the training gets tough. Looking forward to seeing how you get on

ooter

Heard about this on marathon talk, it'll be interesting to see how he gets on.
He's starting his training today, 22 weeks out.
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/06/brooks-beasts-coach-danny-mackey-talks-nick-symmonds-will-change-training-prepares-last-pro-race-honolulu-marathon/

gucci

Just chipping back in here: I will be hopefully attempting the sub 3 in Spring (London) after getting the GFA in Manchester in April just gone by. I have progressed from 3:16 to 3:08 to 3:04:17 in the 3 marathons to date.

In October I am going to do the first Birmingham Marathon (Oct 15th) , so will hopefully get a decent block of training (plan to do my old reliable 12 week P&F Advanced Marathoning up to 55) and then focus on quality in the spring, perhaps doing the 18 week one.
I am holding off on the sub 3 attempt for the Birmingham one as we are due our first child in September, and I expect my training schedule/sleep pattern/life priorities to take a serious pounding :eek::eek:

Just wondering if anyone could advise me how best to "use" this training cycle, is there one area I should focus on more than the other which will help me get into the best place for spring?

noelearly

7 weeks into the P&D 18 plan (70miles). Only run I haven't completed is yesterday's 21 could only manage 15.5 just couldn't bring myself to do another step. Must admit it's a lot harder than I expected after doing the 55 mile one previously. Thinking of just doing a recovery 6m on Tuesday a 5k race in Thursday and my long on Sunday to see if I can recharge the batteries somewhat.

Don't think I should lose out too much

pgarr

noelearly wrote: »

7 weeks into the P&D 18 plan (70miles). Only run I haven't completed is yesterday's 21 could only manage 15.5 just couldn't bring myself to do another step. Must admit it's a lot harder than I expected after doing the 55 mile one previously. Thinking of just doing a recovery 6m on Tuesday a 5k race in Thursday and my long on Sunday to see if I can recharge the batteries somewhat.

Don't think I should lose out too much

Hey noel

Have you been able to figure out exactly why you couldn't finish yesterday? Once you have a strong idea why you'll be able to learn from it.

Personally I've felt like that when I'm doing my training faster / at a higher intensity than I should.

A recovery run substitute sounds like a good idea - but see how you feel tomorrow. The body is amazing at adapting and you may feel better than you expect in the morning.

Does the plan allow for a rest day in the week?

pgarr

gucci wrote: »

Just chipping back in here: I will be hopefully attempting the sub 3 in Spring (London) after getting the GFA in Manchester in April just gone by. I have progressed from 3:16 to 3:08 to 3:04:17 in the 3 marathons to date.

In October I am going to do the first Birmingham Marathon (Oct 15th) , so will hopefully get a decent block of training (plan to do my old reliable 12 week P&F Advanced Marathoning up to 55) and then focus on quality in the spring, perhaps doing the 18 week one.
I am holding off on the sub 3 attempt for the Birmingham one as we are due our first child in September, and I expect my training schedule/sleep pattern/life priorities to take a serious pounding :eek::eek:

Just wondering if anyone could advise me how best to "use" this training cycle, is there one area I should focus on more than the other which will help me get into the best place for spring?

I dont have a lot of experience but I would think keeping the miles ticking over is the most important element. 18 weeks will be a lot of time to build on a solid base and incorporate a lot of sub 3 specific workouts. It's also a long cycle so I would also say no need to go nuts right now. You don't want to fatigue the mind above all else.

noelearly

pgarr wrote: »

Hey noel

Have you been able to figure out exactly why you couldn't finish yesterday? Once you have a strong idea why you'll be able to learn from it.

Personally I've felt like that when I'm doing my training faster / at a higher intensity than I should.

A recovery run substitute sounds like a good idea - but see how you feel tomorrow. The body is amazing at adapting and you may feel better than you expect in the morning.

Does the plan allow for a rest day in the week?

A combination of time restraints (didn't go until 7.30) and tiredness. Im putting it down to me working nights at the moment and me doing a 11 mile Thursday and a 10k race friday night (I know stupid) and another 8 Saturday. I usually have a rest day Monday but with me and my wife working shift it's a bit all over the place regards what days and workouts I do. Two more nights to do now and 2 week holiday then back to days after that, all out of excuses then.