The Sub 3 Support Thread

sideswipe

Enduro wrote: »

I believe the reference was to weeks, not days. And again, can you point me to any evidence / research / emperical statistics of any kind to support that?

Edit:

And to add.... What "Risk"?! The "risk" of running a sub-optimal marathon or DNFing? It doesn't strike me as something to be overly concerned about. On the contary achieving your best marathon performance requires risk taking, pushing yourself to you absolute limits.

As I said just because I don't have research/evidence for you doesn't mean the obvious answer isn't the obvious answer.

I had a long response written out in relation to risk-I've have deleted it not wanting to derail what in my opinion is the best thread on this message board

sideswipe

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Am I still in the sub 3 support thread...


TbL

Good point.

I'm hoping to get the monkey off my back in the Autumn. Working on building (finding) some speed at the moment- joined a club in Jan and really enjoying it so hopefully training with some faster runners will help me over the summer.

ultrapercy

Enduro wrote: »

I'll take that as a "No" then. It was a genuine and straighforward question, but your answer seems to be erring towards sarcasm (If I'm wrong about that, then my apologies).

So genuinely, is there any evidence out there to show that you can't chase a second marathon PB after going for it the first time? I know that the world and it's mother thinks its the case that it is not do-able, but I've yet to see or hear of any actual evidence to back that up. Without that, it's no more than received wisdom that nobody questions because "it's obvious".

I don't run straight marathons these days, as you probably know. But I have attempted much longer races "every couple of weeks" quite frequently (And I'm guessing that the reason you're skeptical that a full effort marathon every couple of weeks is because of the distance... if so, I'm presumung that you'd accept that distances longer than marathon should at minimum be equally difficult to race as closely, if not more so). If you want to know about how that worked out I'll report that back for you no problem.

That man is in full taper mode, you have to be more carefull. Seriously though I personally wouldn't heed scientific studies in these matters anyway because so many elements vary in different people. I think it's possible to run marathons close together very close to full potential. I'd imagine someone like Krusty or myself could run 2 2.35 within a couple of weeks maybe even 2.33 but doping into pb range especially when that range is well established wouldn't be possible. It's the mix of distance and intensity not the distance alone. I found 100k easier to recover from in some ways than a pb marathon but maybe that was because I didn't dig a deep in the 100k. That 100k left me sore for longer but energy level rebounded quicker. That could be a mental thing of course but recovery is a lot to do with attitude anyway I believe. Basically as in all these matters everyone is different.

davedanon

ultrapercy wrote: »

That man is in full taper mode, you have to be more carefull. Seriously though I personally wouldn't heed scientific studies in these matters anyway because so many elements vary in different people. I think it's possible to run marathons close together very close to full potential. I'd imagine someone like Krusty or myself could run 2 2.35 within a couple of weeks maybe even 2.33 but doping into pb range especially when that range is well established wouldn't be possible. It's the mix of distance and intensity not the distance alone. I found 100k easier to recover from in some ways than a pb marathon but maybe that was because I didn't dig a deep in the 100k. That 100k left me sore for longer but energy level rebounded quicker. That could be a mental thing of course but recovery is a lot to do with attitude anyway I believe. Basically as in all these matters everyone is different.

Could you (or krusty) follow it up with a third 2.35 a couple of weeks after that, though? Or a fourth, fifth and sixth?

Enduro

ultrapercy wrote: »

Seriously though I personally wouldn't heed scientific studies in these matters anyway because so many elements vary in different people.

Absolutely. That's pretty much what I'm trying to get at. I have no doubt that there is a proportion of people that couldn't run near optimal marathons a few weeks apart. I'd even say that would be the majority. But equally, I'd say there is a proportion of people who can. This general rule that you can't do it is IMO nonsense precisely because everyone is different.

Even in the article Raycun posted they make the point : "The severity of these changes varied from individual to individual, but all runners exhibited some degree ofmyofibrillar lysis. The observed differences in severity are not surprising, since the runners varied in age, conditioning, and running speed."

This is the sub 3 thread, not a beginners thread. I would expect that the audience here would be more likely to be in the more experience and "battle hardened" category, and as a result more likely to be more resiliant and better trained, and as a result more likely to be in the "can do it" group than the average runner.

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think it's possible to run marathons close together very close to full potential. I'd imagine someone like Krusty or myself could run 2 2.35 within a couple of weeks maybe even 2.33 but doping into pb range especially when that range is well established wouldn't be possible. It's the mix of distance and intensity not the distance alone. I found 100k easier to recover from in some ways than a pb marathon but maybe that was because I didn't dig a deep in the 100k. That 100k left me sore for longer but energy level rebounded quicker. That could be a mental thing of course but recovery is a lot to do with attitude anyway I believe. Basically as in all these matters everyone is different.

I don't go for the marathon being some magical distance that is the perfect storm of difficulty. If 100km races are less troublesome than 42km races because they are less intense, then would that not imply that 10km races would be much more troublesome because they are faster and more intense, and much longer gaps should be needed between 10km races. You can see where this is going... (And yet athletes manage heats and finals within days at championships events at 1500m etc)

Every distance can be raced at a maximal intensity for the given distance. The speed varies for the distance. But there is nothing magical about the marathon that puts it at some apex point making it uniquely difficult to run close maximal efforts.

Do please come back and run 100km at your best effort!! We could do with that level of talent at the distance (genuinely).

Again, I absolutely agree with your final sentance. Hence my issue with a general "rule" being applied lazily accross the board, particularly in the sub-3 thread

Enduro

sideswipe wrote: »

I had a long response written out in relation to risk-I've have deleted it not wanting to derail what in my opinion is the best thread on this message board

See post above.... I do think it is particularly relevenent in this thread.

Enduro

RayCun wrote: »

This study shows 8-12 weeks for skeletal muscle damage to be repaired after a marathon.

In general, running a hard marathon is known to cause large degrees of muscle inflammation, high levels of stress (acute elevation of cortisol), and so on.

We also know that there is such a thing as overtraining syndrome, which is caused by subjecting your body to too much stress without sufficient time for recovery.

For me, that is enough reason to think that the received wisdom is correct, and the burden of proof is in the other direction.

Thanks for the link. Good to see some research is being done. I'm left with a load of questions, some of which the authors themselves note (Like how the findings would apply to shorter distances), and whether the differences in individual reactions they note could be percieved by the athletes themselves (i.e. did the onserved levels of trauma correspond with athletes perceptions of their own recovery). If you find any similar stuff please pop me an I.M.

Enduro

OWinter wrote: »

Walking around the mountains with a map, not eating, not sleeping is a completely different hobby to blasting a marathon full gas on the edge of HR redline, muscle fatigue etc

'It's not the distance but the speed that kills'

So how come 100 meter sprinters can manage multiple all out efforts within days at championship events?

Itziger

We've had a version of this debate before and I find myself siding with Enduro mostly. For a couple of reasons: A) Remember when it was impossible for a woman to run a marathon?? That's in my lifetime for God sake, not 500 years ago. And I have actually run 3 marathons in 3 months with very similar results.

Before anybody says that is problematic, I know it is. Let's look at the runs though.

Sept 20th 2015. Used as a controlled hard training run. Previous PB 3.09 but I was fitter and better prepared now. Ran 3.05 which is what I was targeting. Some 6 weeks later in New York, wanted to try for sub 3 but came home in 3.04, new pb by 70 seconds and on a tougher course but a race I had targeted, unlike the Sept. run. Then 7 weeks later, a bit of an afterthought Pisa in 3.03, again 70 secs pb.

Of course there are many, many questions we could ask. Would I have done better in NYC had I run say 3.10 in Karlsruhe? Maybe. Would I have hit the sub 3 in Pisa if I had not done either marathon 1 or 2? Who knows? But Enduro's point is: let's not accept what everyone thinks without a lot more research. Why should it be more difficult to run 2 or 3 'fast' (relative, as always ) marathons, as it is to run 2 or 3 fast 10ks? What is it about the distance that makes it so different? Also, as he says, it can hardly be the 'speed' that kills as we all run slower at marathon than we do 10k (I hope!!!!)

I am not for a moment claiming that multiple marathon efforts with short recovery time between is the way to go. If I was asked to bet, I would say it's probably not ideal, no. But do I know for sure?? Hell no.

Oh, and let's not forget Eau Rouge, from these parts. Big PB in Berlin, fast and flat. A minute or so faster in Dublin 4 weeks later. What if he'd done another one four weeks after Dublin? One of the reasons he didn't is almost certainly because he told himself he couldn't. But how do we know? Maybe in 50 year's time, the new fashion will be to do 4 marathons in 6 weeks building up to a shiny new PB in number 4.

Enough of that. Training for this weekend? Any interesting variations out there in the sub 3 world??

Krusty_Clown

Enduro wrote: »

I'll take that as a "No" then. It was a genuine and straighforward question, but your answer seems to be erring towards sarcasm (If I'm wrong about that, then my apologies).

Sorry Enduro. Work stuff happens! And to be fair it was a genuine suggestion with a light dusting of sarcasm. All theories (or counter-theories) start with a sample size of one - so if it's something you believe strongly, why not be that one? And yes, I'm fully aware it's quite a distance from your typical endeavour (hence the tongue in cheek). By the way, to do Magness and Marcus justice, I don't believe they suggested in the podcast that you cannot chase consecutive marathon PBs - this wasn't the subject of the podcast, which was more specifically related to marathon success by way of motivational drive and focus.

Is there any evidence out there to show that you can't chase a second marathon PB after going for it the first time

Without a firm time-banding, the question could mean a wide variety of things, but if the proposed time-frame were a couple of weeks (which was the piece of my post you quoted originally), then I would suggest that this would be an unrealistic proposition for most runners.

Speaking from my own experience(sample=one), targeting a marathon improvement is an undertaking that takes 10-15 hours of training per week (plus supplementary strength work) for a period of 12-22 weeks. That training culminates in a body of effort that (like many other events), comes at a significant cost in terms of health and physical damage. In my view, it is this damage that you need to recover from, before you can set out to repeat the process. The keyword in that last sentence though is the word 'repeat'. If you haven't done anything different - any supplementary training (beyond your damage repair), how can you hope to run even faster than you did 2-3 weeks previously? Improvement needs training stimulus and training doesn't happen instantaneously. I have no evidence to hand to support the ideas that you need to recover from a marathon and that you need to train to improve your performance, but if we're talking an interim of just a couple of weeks they're pretty self-evident proposals.

If we expand the time-frame though, to suggest that there's no reason you can't run multiple marathon PBs in a year, then absolutely - we've all been there - but still you need that training stimulus to see improvements. The greater your amount of preparation (assuming it's the right kind of training), the greater the expected return on training investment. Nothing controversial here.

Are there exceptions? Runners who can run two marathon PBs in as many weeks? I'm sure there are. My guess is that the number wouldn't be statistically relevant. But if you are one of those people, you probably know it already.

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

Oh, and let's not forget Eau Rouge, from these parts. Big PB in Berlin, fast and flat. A minute or so faster in Dublin 4 weeks later.

Great post/point. It would be good to have him chime-in and offer his opinion on how and why his second marathon was faster than his first.

Enduro

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sorry Enduro. Work stuff happens! And to be fair it was a genuine suggestion with a light dusting of sarcasm. All theories (or counter-theories) start with a sample size of one - so if it's something you believe strongly, why not be that one? And yes, I'm fully aware it's quite a distance from your typical endeavour (hence the tongue in cheek). By the way, to do Magness and Marcus justice, I don't believe they suggested in the podcast that you cannot chase consecutive marathon PBs - this wasn't the subject of the podcast, which was more specifically related to marathon success by way of motivational drive and focus.

No worries... It's not your usual style which is why I was wondering.

Funnilly enough, its on the motivational drive where this supposed "rule" about not being able to chase maximal consecutive marathon efforts in a short timeframe does the damage, since it probably prevents many people who'd be well able and more than likely have nothing to lose to not even try. Obviously enough, if you've already decided mentally that it can't be done then it doesn't matter a damn if in reality you'd actually be physically capable.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Without a firm time-banding, the question could mean a wide variety of things, but if the proposed time-frame were a couple of weeks (which was the piece of my post you quoted originally), then I would suggest that this would be an unrealistic proposition for most runners.

Speaking from my own experience(sample=one), targeting a marathon improvement is an undertaking that takes 10-15 hours of training per week (plus supplementary strength work) for a period of 12-22 weeks. That training culminates in a body of effort that (like many other events), comes at a significant cost in terms of health and physical damage. In my view, it is this damage that you need to recover from, before you can set out to repeat the process. The keyword in that last sentence though is the word 'repeat'. If you haven't done anything different - any supplementary training (beyond your damage repair), how can you hope to run even faster than you did 2-3 weeks previously? Improvement needs training stimulus and training doesn't happen instantaneously. I have no evidence to hand to support the ideas that you need to recover from a marathon and that you need to train to improve your performance, but if we're talking an interim of just a couple of weeks they're pretty self-evident proposals.

There is one factor you're not taking into account there, which is the stimulous of the marathon race itself. The bigger (IMO) factor, is the learnings that a good self-analysing (or well coached) runner will take from the marathon experience. I know that in my own case (n=1 ) even after my very best performances there is always something I will see that could be improved. After all, there is more to optimal performance than just physical conditioning. So even without physcial gains there should be definite tactical gains.

The speed of recovery from the damage is definitely an n=1 thing. My own experience is my recovery timeframes have improved with age/experience (and is way way faster than most people expect for longer stuff). My guess is that will probably go into reverse eventually.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are there exceptions? Runners who can run two marathon PBs in as many weeks? I'm sure there are. My guess is that the number wouldn't be statistically relevant. But if you are one of those people, you probably know it already.

I've never run 2 marathons close (I've only run about 7), but have lots of experience of running longer events close. The results are a mixed bag. Sometimes it works, sometimes I know that something is missing on the follow up race. But one thing I know for sure from my own expereince is that there is no absolute rule that it can't be done. My best closely packed sequence of longer than marathon races would be:

24 hours world champs (short road loop) : 234km (3km off PB, 22nd in the WC, better than any other Irish person has ever run in the WC)

2 weeks later: Wicklow Way race (Trail ~130km): 12:25 (PB, course record that still stands)

2 weeks later : Mourne Way Ultra (Trail Double Marathon) : 7:39 (PB, course record that I think still stands)

2 weeks later : Bob graham round (off-road mountainous). Not a race, but huge day. About 21 hours of effort without completing the full loop. I list it since it's equivalent to a race effort.

4 weeks later : Irish 24 hour champs (400m track) : 244km (PB, Irish track record)

2 weeks later : 2 day adventure race in Ballyhoura. (on winning team)

4 weeks later : UTMB (Trail ~170km) : 24:44 (PB, 20th overall, 2nd Vet, Irish record for the race)

Apart from the BGR (The only real failure in the sequence), any single one of those would have made it a good year for me. The last one is a contender for my best ever performance, despite being at the end of the sequence.

spc78

There's a series of 3 interviews with Yuki Kawuchi on Brett Larners Japan Running News blog at the moment. Yuki races around 12 marathons a year, has done for years. He has some interesting thoughts on chasing times/PBs. He does low mileage by Japanese standards (only averages 100mpw) but does 4-6 hour trail jogs every week which give him the strength to run marathons on the road. To me he seems very clear that racing a road marathon takes a toll on the legs...the faster the higher the toll. For example he does not recommend top debut japanese marathon runners going straight for the sub 2:10 marathon time as although they might get it, their legs are not up to it and they might never improve that time again....and that's for college runners averaging 150 miles per week. He's talking about only dialling things back by a few minutes making a huge difference.

He runs competitive marathons every month but he's not going for PB's in all of those. I always thought he was crazy running so many marathons (e.g he will run one a month in the run up to London world champs) but there's method to his madness....he is not chasing a PB, rather he's learning to be competitive and entering a marathon where 2:12 will get him the win rather than 2:09.

He seems to do all his long runs on trail (not that common in japan...the normal thinking is train on the road to be fast on the road) and routinely does 2-3 over-marathon distance trail 'jogs' in a week. I actually couldn't work out whether he counts these trail 'jogs' as miles when he says he averages 600km a month versus the normal japanese runners 1000 a month. I'm suspicious that he doesn't actually count them as they're 'jogs', on trail and don't take a toll on his legs.

CR 7

I read those during the week too, very interesting. In fact it helped me decide to swap two of my long runs in the build up to Cork for 2 trail/mountain marathons and see what happens.

davedanon

CR 7 wrote: »

I read those during the week too, very interesting. In fact it helped me decide to swap two of my long runs in the build up to Cork for 2 trail/mountain marathons and see what happens.

I've been doing a few impromptu mountainy/trail runs, in addition to the existing training load, over the past while. I've felt strong in races at 5/10k lately, and on Sunday I was rewarded with a pb in the Liverpool Half. I believe I also managed a negative split for the first time, and the last 4 miles were into a stiff headwind. I like to think all the climbing had a strength benefit.

Itziger

For those doing a fairly traditional LR, with or without MP. What do you do on the day before? I suppose there'll be at least two camps, those who do a Slow LR and those who some some quality in it. I'm now looking to incorporate M paced stuff into mine. Started with 12k and did 15k last Sunday. I'm just curious what people do the day before. I tend to do a medium length easy. Will up the distance a bit, but not the intensity. Might get up to 21 or 23k.

Thoughts?

CR 7

Itziger wrote: »

For those doing a fairly traditional LR, with or without MP. What do you do on the day before? I suppose there'll be at least two camps, those who do a Slow LR and those who some some quality in it. I'm now looking to incorporate M paced stuff into mine. Started with 12k and did 15k last Sunday. I'm just curious what people do the day before. I tend to do a medium length easy. Will up the distance a bit, but not the intensity. Might get up to 21 or 23k.

Thoughts?

So far this cycle, I've been just taking the day off, or maybe 5m easy the day before long runs. Last time, I was racing 5/10ks fairly frequently the evening before, but there aren't many this time of year. I have been doing a lot more marathon pace stuff during the rest of the week than last time, but any MP stuff during long runs has been just doing longer races at 6:45 pace with a short warm-up/down.

tang1

Itziger wrote: »

For those doing a fairly traditional LR, with or without MP. What do you do on the day before? I suppose there'll be at least two camps, those who do a Slow LR and those who some some quality in it. I'm now looking to incorporate M paced stuff into mine. Started with 12k and did 15k last Sunday. I'm just curious what people do the day before. I tend to do a medium length easy. Will up the distance a bit, but not the intensity. Might get up to 21 or 23k.

Thoughts?

I was doing Tempo intervals prior to my LR before Barcelona, 4x10mins@ Tempo pace was one of the favoured sessions. Reason for it was to mimic running on tired legs ala the final miles of the marathon. Never got to see if it worked!!!

RayCun

I always like the approach of having the long run the day after a session

and still ricky villa

I've used the Hanson's plan this cycle so your long run is generally done on tired legs, albeit they prescribe nothing longer than 16 miles.

The jist of the plan is:
Monday - Easy
Tuesday - Intervals
Wednesday - Off
Thursday - Marathon pace (Building from 6 to 10 miles in 3 week blocks)
Friday - Easy
Saturday - Longer easy (up to 10 miles)
Sunday - Long (up to 16 miles)

I confess I've chopped and changed this as I don't trust myself to complete a marathon without going to at least 20 miles

EC1000

Our club sessions for marathon prep always involved the tempo on the Saturday (15 mins w/up, tempo extending week on week from 30 mins up to 70 mins, 15 mins cool down) before the long run on the Sunday on tired legs.

Itziger

EC1000 wrote: »

Our club sessions for marathon prep always involved the tempo on the Saturday (15 mins w/up, tempo extending week on week from 30 mins up to 70 mins, 15 mins cool down) before the long run on the Sunday on tired legs.

Did the Sunday long run include 'quality' material, such as M pace, or was it easy?

EC1000

Itziger wrote: »

Did the Sunday long run include 'quality' material, such as M pace, or was it easy?

Generally all done at one pace, about 1 min/mile slower than marathon pace, but depending on marathon target time.

Edit: if I was doing marathon paced stuff during a long run, I wouldn't do it the day after a long tempo and would try to do it on fresher legs. It can be disheartening to try marathon paced stuff at the end of a long run and not hold your desired pace because of fatigue.

EauRouge79

Itziger wrote: »

Oh, and let's not forget Eau Rouge, from these parts. Big PB in Berlin, fast and flat. A minute or so faster in Dublin 4 weeks later. What if he'd done another one four weeks after Dublin? One of the reasons he didn't is almost certainly because he told himself he couldn't. But how do we know? Maybe in 50 year's time, the new fashion will be to do 4 marathons in 6 weeks building up to a shiny new PB in number 4.

Enough of that. Training for this weekend? Any interesting variations out there in the sub 3 world??

Hi Lads, thanks for the heads up Itziger. Not sure how much I can contribute here, im not into the detail really – no heart rate recovery data etc, but this was my experience.

Trained for Berlin2016 and was a bit more honest with my efforts, better sessions (missed none), and slightly better mileage. Average over the summer would have been 70 miles. Fancied I was in decent shape going over and barring any issues, I should run a chunky enough PB.

Race went to plan, I must say I was comfortable most of the and was able to manage a slight negative split. Was delighted to run a 12 min PB of 2:34.

I had signed up for Dublin a few months earlier, as we know it was selling out quickly and it also fell on my birthday so what better way to spend the morning. There was a 5 week gap between Berlin & Dublin, in most other years this would have been 4 weeks. So, no major soreness in the legs post Berlin, just a small niggle or 2.

After doing no running in week 1, I managed probably 40 miles the following week and maybe 70 or so miles over the next 10 days (in there was a 20 miler with 10 at marathon pace…..somehow made easier by the fact that I turned up that morning half cut after 6 pints the evening before…..some performances you just cant explain J . So an abbreviated 7/8 day taper for Dublin. When I say taper, I was still recovering from Berlin and had Zero thoughts of racing Dublin flat out. I was part of an M35 team that the club has entered so needed to stay honest whilst not pushing very hard on the day…I would have been very happy with 2:39:xx.

Ive never been so relaxed at the start line of the race and headed off at what felt like a confortable 6 min pace, first 10k is up and down as we know and the legs did feel a tad heavy going up through the park. 10 miles was 66:00 and I was starting to feel a bit better. At halfway a car with a clock on to of it appeared up ahead in distance which got my attention. I eventually copped the fact that it was the lead ladies and I was feeling good, I said what the hell and chased that it down, conscious of the fact that upping the pace this far out was likely to make the last few miles quite uncomfortable but it would be worth it for the photo’s….if it all went to s**t then so be it. As the race went on, I just felt better and better though, a negative split of 2mins 30 secs in the end, 80 second PB and 3rd lady! I was running with the ladies group from 19-22 miles before it split, great craic so it was!



In summary, I don’t think I was sandbagging in Berlin. I gave that all I could on the day, but within 5 weeks I recovered pretty well and ran an 80second PB on a tougher course. I took some time off after Dublin and running the 2 marathons probably cost me a XC season. I don’t believe that its optimal to run 2 hard marathon a few short weeks apart but it worked out for me. On this occasion!

Krusty_Clown

EauRouge79 wrote: »

I took some time off after Dublin and running the 2 marathons probably cost me a XC season.

Thanks for dropping back in. I had planned on doing the Berlin/Dublin double myself, but like you, the goal would have been to hammer it in Berlin, and then run Dublin with a view to the National Champs/team-specific goals. Interesting that taking the pressure off could have been a significant contributor (less stress, lower HR, longer before you tip over that threshold).

Could you have run that 80 second PB two weeks earlier (maybe skipping the 6 pints )? Are you doing a spring marathon?

EauRouge79

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks for dropping back in. I had planned on doing the Berlin/Dublin double myself, but like you, the goal would have been to hammer it in Berlin, and then run Dublin with a view to the National Champs/team-specific goals. Interesting that taking the pressure off could have been a significant contributor (less stress, lower HR, longer before you tip over that threshold).

Could you have run that 80 second PB two weeks earlier (maybe skipping the 6 pints )? Are you doing a spring marathon?

Hey Krusty, no chance I would say. I was still easing myself back in to it and just keeping tabs on the body and how it felt. If I was a heart rate monitor user, I imagine that would also have confirmed to me that I hadn't yet returned to pre-Berlin heart rate levels.
Plus my head would never have been ready to deal with another flat out marathon in such a short timescale.

No spring marathon....thank God!
Myself and the gang are however heading back to Berlin in September!

The Very Best of Luck at the weekend! We shall be keeping a close eye on you.

Rolex_

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks for dropping back in. I had planned on doing the Berlin/Dublin double myself, but like you, the goal would have been to hammer it in Berlin, and then run Dublin with a view to the National Champs/team-specific goals. Interesting that taking the pressure off could have been a significant contributor (less stress, lower HR, longer before you tip over that threshold).

Just to add to Eaurouge's contribution (all of which I can vouch for, including his hungover 20M with 10@MP done a couple of weeks after Berlin!), he was one of 3 of us who train together who did the Berlin/Dublin double.

The 3rd had a slightly disappointing 2:52 small PB in Berlin having missed a lot of August through injury. He came back to Dublin and took another minute off his Berlin PB, running 2:51 as an M50

In my case, I was doing the double as a member of the club M50 team with no thoughts at all of racing Dublin, merely enjoying the day and running a decent time without going into the dark zone.

I had run 2:45 in Berlin (5 minute PB). I ran the most comfortable marathon I've ever done in Dublin 5 weeks later, running 2:48:30 with a 1.5 minute negative split (which I never do). If I had been prepared to back myself I certainly could have given the 2:45 a good rattle, if not actually improved marginally on it.

So 3/3 good experiences 5 weeks after what was very much the A marathon that all training had been focused on for 6 months and 2/3 being over 50 runners.

I'm not saying it would work for everyone but following a strong programme we were well prepared for Berlin and it almost ended up being an added training stimulus for Dublin, when it came round.

ThebitterLemon

I demand that Eaurouge and Rolex be tested by the Boards anti doping authority

Great performances lads.

TbL

Gavlor

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

I demand that Eaurouge and Rolex be tested by the Boards anti doping authority

Great performances lads.

TbL

Why, you looking for some of their "supplements"??

Marginal gains old timer, marginal gains

ThebitterLemon

Gavlor wrote: »

Why, you looking for some of their "supplements"??

Marginal gains old timer, marginal gains

Jazus, a blast from the past, are you cycling, running or rolling blading these days!

I'm getting so desperate for a sub 3, I'd consider drinking pints of Krustys piss

TbL