The Sub 3 Support Thread

Sandwell

I've finally posted my DCM report over on my log. I'm not sure if there's much insight to be had from it but I'm happy to answer any questions people might have. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057473848&page=5

tang1

snailsong wrote: »

Also planning to start a log when I get my arse in gear.

About bloody time!!!

and still ricky villa

Ease back into running outdoors on Thursday they said. It's only a couple of miles they said. Sure it's mild for November they said

ThebitterLemon

10 days to go to my attempt, did 20 miles including a 5/4/3/2/1 @ marathon pace off half mile jog last Saturday and managed it ok. Think I've put myself in with a reasonable chance. Fighting demons, taper madness and a dose of squirrel flu!

TbL

and still ricky villa

Where are you running?

ThebitterLemon

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Where are you running?

San Sebastián

TbL

paddybarry

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

10 days to go to my attempt, did 20 miles including a 5/4/3/2/1 @ marathon pace off half mile jog last Saturday and managed it ok. Think I've put myself in with a reasonable chance. Fighting demons, taper madness and a dose of squirrel flu!

TbL

Best of luck, believing you can do it is half the battle.

overpronator

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

10 days to go to my attempt, did 20 miles including a 5/4/3/2/1 @ marathon pace off half mile jog last Saturday and managed it ok. Think I've put myself in with a reasonable chance. Fighting demons, taper madness and a dose of squirrel flu!

TbL

All the best man. Hope you do it, race smart!

noelearly

Great reading in this thread, hoping to eventually break the magical 3 hour myself in the next year hopefully.

Took up running last Feb 2015. Did the Cork marathon in June that year, didn't really follow a set plan most mileage I did was around 30 miles a week. Aimed for a 4 hour marathon and did it in 3.55, entered Dublin immediately after and bought myself the Daniels running book, think I followed the Blue plan, aim was to break the 3.30 mark and did so running a 3.26, trouble was I was absolutely knackered from it and got a virus. I put it down to probably over training and not looking after the body properly. I was laid up until April this year I entered the Chicago marathon and luckily won the ballot. I bought another book the Ptzinger advanced marathon training. I followed the 55 mile maximum week plan, couldn't praise this plan enough, after building up a base for a month I started the 18 week plan I early June, tiredness wasn't a factor this time at all. Really felt the plan suited me. It gave great advise on what times I should be doing my training runs at.

As I hate speed work I tended to do 5k/5mile races as my speed runs, this helped break the monotony of training alone, I work shift work as does my wife so time is precious and the running club isn't an option. To cut a long story short I ran 3.09 in Chicago this October. Absolutely delighted but I must admit I don't really remember the last 4/5 miles of the race, I've put it done to going to hard in the beginning ran the first 3 miles in an average of 6.38. It totally went against what I had planned to do but panic set in as I got to the start line late and lost total sight of the 3.10 pacer, only realised 6 miles in that he was behind me when I came across the 3.05 pacer. I really had to hold on from 18 miles in.

Suppose the question I'm asking it how do I improve, is it just a case of upping mileage?? I know improvements can be found in food (eat terribly) and I've purchased an Electronic cigarette ( I know disgusting). Should I concentrate on getting quicker over the shorter distances??

PBs
5k - 19.15 and a very fast course
5m- 33.19
10m - 1:06:17
Half- 1:32:33

All of these times were during the summer months of this year. Well August and early September basically.

Marathon times
Cork 2015- 3:55:37
Dublin 2015:3:26:15
Chicago 2016: 3:09:28

Any advise welcome??

MrMacPhisto

Long-time reader……

I finally managed to run a sub3 hour marathon last week in the Valencia Marathon. To date, I have ran 4 marathons and have had 3 attempts at running under 3 hours.

1. Dublin 2013- first marathon, 3:06:xx- enjoyable

2. Valencia 2014- first sub three attempt. 4:17:xx –painful. Followed P&D 55mile 18 week plan. Ended up inured with 3 weeks to go (anterior tibialis injury). Little or no running during taper, and my marathon ended with a walk home from 30k onwards. The course, the music, the final km’s and the support was amazing. Decided I would be back to experience it again, but running the entire course the next time.

3. Dublin 2015- 3:00:56- glad to finish but disappointed. Well trained for 2:55:xx following P&D 55mile 18 week plan again, this time injury free. Poor tactics on a windy day resulted in a large fade from 32k. Sub3 was definitely achievable on the day but attempting to maintain 2:55:xx pace into headwinds resulted in blow up.

4. Valencia 2016- 2:52:47- exhilarating. Followed the Hanson Marathon Method Advanced plan. Glad I came back!

I had previously enjoyed following the P&D plans and felt they had me in good shape, in particular for Dublin 2015. However for 2016, I fancied something new. After reading Aero2k’s in-depth post re the Hanson Method, I decided I would give it a go this year. So I bought the book and read it a few times.

The training plans simplicity was its beauty for me. First ten weeks, 2 sessions (speed, marathon pace run) and a long run every second week. The final 8 weeks had more marathon specific training of Tempo and marathon runs. All other runs were Easy Runs. I had a base mileage of around 60-70km per week before starting the plan. I topped out at 105km in the plan. Having read the book, I came to understand that the controversial longest run of 16miles was not set in stone at all. The recommendation is to keep the longest long run at around 25% of weekly mileage, and a maximum of 30% or less than 2.5hours in length. So where it prescribed 16miles (27km) in the plan, I ran 28k, 29k and a final 30k long run. I trained at the paces recommended for a 2:53:00 marathon finish.

The plan is fatiguing by design. There were times when I felt I came close to injury and over-training. With three weeks to go, I had a niggle with my hip and IT band but a few deep massages fixed this issue. I reached the line feeling fresh enough and relatively confident despite the niggle. During the race itself I was pretty comfortable. My plan was to run at 2:55:00 pace until 30k and then see how I felt. I ended up running a 2 minute (1:27:27/1:25:20) negative split. The lack of 20+mile runs was not an issue. In fact, on my previous marathon finishes I was never as strong in the final 6miles.

Overall, I would recommend the plan, but probably not to a first timer. I think my P&D training in previous cycles was a huge benefit to my training in this cycle.

I would highly recommend the Valencia marathon. It’s a flat course, with great organisation, great support, and the weather was not too hot this year (13-17 degrees, 14-20 degrees in 2014). The start time has moved from 9:00am to 8:30am since 2014, allowing the conditions to be a little cooler. The city embraces the marathon. Public transport was free on the day, restaurants and shops had special deals for those running the marathon.

What was I lacking in previous attempts?
• Speed endurance
• Mental toughness- lack of racing
• Tactical knowhow- lack of racing
• Flexibility- led to injury and poor decision making.


What helped me achieve sub 3?
• Consistent base mileage prior to commencing plan
• Greater mileage in plan
• More marathon pace miles- I think P&D is lacking this. 16 of 18 weeks of the hanson plan had MP miles scheduled.
• A few races (10k, and the Dublin half for me), to improve race tactics, give confidence in fitness and improve mental strength.
• Listening to the body, dealing with potentials injuries/niggles early
• More flexibility- Adjust the plan to fit your life events, the plan is generic after all. Targets and tactics need to be flexible. This was my BIG lesson from Dublin 2015.

PBs:

5k- 17:02 (May 2016)
10k- 36:01 (July 2016)
10m-1:01:55 (2014)
HM- 1:21:29 (Sept 2016)
M- 2:52:47 (Nov 2016)

MrMacPhisto

P.S. Good luck to all those going to San Sebastian, enjoy the pintxos!

yaboya1

Excellent stuff Mr MacPhisto. Well done.
Definitely going to get around to running Valencia one day myself. Have heard nothing but good things.

ThebitterLemon

That a great run MrMacPhisto, well done.

I've done Valencia a few times class marathon but the potential for heat put me off going back for a PB attempt there.

Have they changed the date as well as the start time as I thought it was usually held in the middle of November

TbL

MrMacPhisto

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

That a great run MrMacPhisto, well done.

I've done Valencia a few times class marathon but the potential for heat put me off going back for a PB attempt there.

Have they changed the date as well as the start time as I thought it was usually held in the middle of November

TbL

Both times I have run it the event has taken place 3 weeks after Dublin. It was Nov 16th in 2014 and Nov 20th this time. It was definitely cooler this time as there was a bit of cloud cover and the earlier start time helped a lot. It was warm on Friday when we arrived, 23 degrees. Think it was max 20 on the Sunday, but this was around 2 or 3pm.

The organisation has gone up a level since 2014. Its now a Gold standard IAAF event. There were no starting pens that I recall in 2014. This time I had to provide a relevant time (10k, half marathon or marathon that I have run) which would meet their criteria to enter the SUB3 starting pen. They have also introduced a wave departure. 6 min gaps. First wave was :31:xx. Because of this, everybody seemed to be where they should be. No shoving, pushing, stumbling etc in the first km or two.

The expo is very good and well organised. It was cheap to enter, 45euro back in February. Food/drink and accommodation was not too expensive. Only 1hr45 min drive from Alicante. No direct flight to Valencia from Dublin this time of year.

The course is good, flat & fast, and the support very good as you know. Anywhere the crowd seemed thin, there appeared to be drummers/bands making noise. My only gripe would be the powerade in cups. However, this was available at every 5km and as the race progressed, they were handing out more bottles of powerade rather than cups. Guess it saves on wastage. The water was in bottles which is a big thumbs up. Also they provide energy gels early enough, 18k and 28k i think.

There is a 10k which takes place at the same time, might try do this another time.

Itziger

yaboya1 wrote: »

Excellent stuff Mr MacPhisto. Well done.
Definitely going to get around to running Valencia one day myself. Have heard nothing but good things.

Yaboya, we'll have to plan Valencia. I lived there for 9 years and so I know the place well enough. About the only negative is the possibility of heat. The last few years I don't seem to be able to manage decent flight times - nothing easy on the Monday to come back, but I might book earlier and something different next time.

Super flat btw. They're thinking of changing the 10k I believe but they say a lot of partners of marathon entrants run the shorter race, which is kinda cool I suppose.

All we need is a small gang of sub 3ers and a pacer! 2017 anyone?

MrMacPhisto

Itziger wrote: »

Yaboya, we'll have to plan Valencia. I lived there for 9 years and so I know the place well enough. About the only negative is the possibility of heat. The last few years I don't seem to be able to manage decent flight times - nothing easy on the Monday to come back, but I might book earlier and something different next time.

Super flat btw. They're thinking of changing the 10k I believe but they say a lot of partners of marathon entrants run the shorter race, which is kinda cool I suppose.

All we need is a small gang of sub 3ers and a pacer! 2017 anyone?

My wife ran the 10km this year. She really enjoyed it and I don't think it interfered with the marathon itself. It has separate starting pens, and a different side of road separated by a permanent barrier. They changed the 10k route from previous years to run along the river, through the old town and returns back to the Arts and Science finish area from the bull ring. It basically follows the marathon route from 24-29.5k and 39-42.2k. This route takes in the best parts of the marathon route. The had a max time and a sweeper car to ensure the marathon route was clear.

The heat is the big risk. Most of my training was over the Irish summer, which closely matched the mid/end of nov weather this year in Valencia. If you are sub3 then you will be finished by 1130am.The weather was fairly cool in the morns and evenings. So I think the max temps would be no more than 18 by 1130am on a really hot day.

and still ricky villa

First official Rotterdam Sub3 Hanson's week in the bag

I'd been building for a few weeks so have a decent base to start from.
The first week of the plan is fairly straightforward so I altered it a bit to take the previous weeks into account.
I ran a Tempo/MP run of just 3 miles at 4:05 per km as I'm not confident of diving into 6 miles at this pace in a couple of weeks. I've done it before but it was a big shock to the system

Thanks to MacPhisto I'm going to go with extending the long run a tad. I like the knowledge that I have the distance AND pace well covered

Week one down, 17 to go!

runrayrun

Hi All,

Well I have decided to make my first sub 3 attempt and i am looking for some training plan advice.

First marathon was Cork 2015 using hal higdon intermediate. Finished in 3:27:xx

Second marathon was Dublin this year using P&D 55. I had planned to aim for 3:15 but during the training I had some good races and decided to adjust my training times to achieve a sub 3:05. I adjusted with 10 weeks to go. I finished up with 3:05:14 at Dublin.

I am now going to attempt sub 3 at Rotterdam. What I want to do is run the P&D 55 again with adjusted training intensity to go for 2:55 and hopefully achieve sub 3. Whats you thoughts on this, should i go for the P&D 70, i am a little afraid of the high mileage this brings with it considering i have done near to nothing since Dublin.

As always, any advice greatly appreciated.

snailsong

runrayrun wrote: »

Hi All,

Well I have decided to make my first sub 3 attempt and i am looking for some training plan advice.

First marathon was Cork 2015 using hal higdon intermediate. Finished in 3:27:xx

Second marathon was Dublin this year using P&D 55. I had planned to aim for 3:15 but during the training I had some good races and decided to adjust my training times to achieve a sub 3:05. I adjusted with 10 weeks to go. I finished up with 3:05:14 at Dublin.

I am now going to attempt sub 3 at Rotterdam. What I want to do is run the P&D 55 again with adjusted training intensity to go for 2:55 and hopefully achieve sub 3. Whats you thoughts on this, should i go for the P&D 70, i am a little afraid of the high mileage this brings with it considering i have done near to nothing since Dublin.

As always, any advice greatly appreciated.

Best of luck, Ray.
I'm in a very similar situation. I ran 3:06:xx in Rotterdam last year and will be back in the spring to try to improve on that. Probably won't be ready for Sub 3 but leaving target open as yet.
I've followed p+d 55 a few times and I'm trying p+d 70 mile this time. Conventional wisdom would suggest that high milage is key to good performance. However, if you attempt high milage off an insufficient base the result might be to break you down physically and lead to fatigue or injury. My experience has been that I wasn't ready for p+d 55 the first time or two and probably peaked 4-6 weeks before the marathon. Subsequent cycles were more successful and only now do I feel justified in attempting the 70 mile programme. I've starting a training log specifically for this cycle. Can't post a link but you'll find it on the logs page if you're interested. El Caballo is also heading to Rotterdam for a sub 3 attempt so I'd recommend his log too.

jonnner

runrayrun wrote: »

Hi All,

Well I have decided to make my first sub 3 attempt and i am looking for some training plan advice.

First marathon was Cork 2015 using hal higdon intermediate. Finished in 3:27:xx

Second marathon was Dublin this year using P&D 55. I had planned to aim for 3:15 but during the training I had some good races and decided to adjust my training times to achieve a sub 3:05. I adjusted with 10 weeks to go. I finished up with 3:05:14 at Dublin.

I am now going to attempt sub 3 at Rotterdam. What I want to do is run the P&D 55 again with adjusted training intensity to go for 2:55 and hopefully achieve sub 3. Whats you thoughts on this, should i go for the P&D 70, i am a little afraid of the high mileage this brings with it considering i have done near to nothing since Dublin.

As always, any advice greatly appreciated.

I would say doing the 55 again will probably get you sub 3 anyway. It's a shame you did little since Dublin because I think you know yourself now that jumping straight into the 70mi plan could end in disaster.
Why not start off with the 55 and after a few weeks if you're feeling good throw in an extra recovery run on one of the rest days. Or on some days do the workout that was on the 70mi plan rather than the 55?
The extra bit of mileage will really help with economy.

and still ricky villa

Anyone know how ThebitterLemon got on?

tang1

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Anyone know how ThebitterLemon got on?

Tore his calf at mile 13, not heard of since.

and still ricky villa

tang1 wrote: »

Tore his calf at mile 13, not heard of since.

Yeah, just reading his log now. Poxy luck. I'd a similar issue in Dublin last year. Passed halfway in 1:28 and my hip went. No pain before or since that day. Just rotten luck

tang1

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Yeah, just reading his log now. Poxy luck. I'd a similar issue in Dublin last year. Passed halfway in 1:28 and my hip went. No pain before or since that day. Just rotten luck

He'll be back, was chatting him yesterday. Hopeful of a return to the roads before Xmas.

noelearly

https://bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marathon-a-just-enough-training-approach/

Has anybody ever done this programme, looks tempting to me because of the 3 day training plan, but goes against most other plans out there.

ooter

noelearly wrote: »

https://bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marathon-a-just-enough-training-approach/

Has anybody ever done this programme, looks tempting to me because of the 3 day training plan, but goes against most other plans out there.

I followed it for London earlier this year but not with sub 3 in mind, I wasn't long back from injury and just wanted to give myself as good a chance as possible to get to the start line and I felt 3 runs a week would give me the best opportunity.
It worked as in it got me to the start line but my time was nothing special.
I really struggled with the long runs as the mileage increased, I was getting them done but there was nothing in the legs at the back end of them to ramp it up to marathon pace, the first 20 miler ended around 17 miles and I only finished the second one because I slowed the pace right down, 20 x 9 min miles. I was nailing the MP runs and the yasso runs but they took too much out of me when it came to the long runs.
Didn't work for me, absolutely no chance of me going sub 3 with it anyway.
Best of luck if you do decide to follow it.

noelearly

ooter wrote: »

I followed it for London earlier this year but not with sub 3 in mind, I wasn't long back from injury and just wanted to give myself as good a chance as possible to get to the start line and I felt 3 runs a week would give me the best opportunity.
It worked as in it got me to the start line but my time was nothing special.
I really struggled with the long runs as the mileage increased, I was getting them done but there was nothing in the legs at the back end of them to ramp it up to marathon pace, the first 20 miler ended around 17 miles and I only finished the second one because I slowed the pace right down, 20 x 9 min miles. I was nailing the MP runs and the yasso runs but they took too much out of me when it came to the long runs.
Didn't work for me, absolutely no chance of me going sub 3 with it anyway.
Best of luck if you do decide to follow it.

Thanks for the reply, I'm at 2 minds really if I will try it or not. Did the P&D 55 for Chicago this year, got me 3.09 and I was really happy with it, just struggling with getting out for 5 days running. I have Berlin for Sept next year so was thinking of trying this for Cork in June. See how it goes.

ooter

noelearly wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I'm at 2 minds really if I will try it or not. Did the P&D 55 for Chicago this year, got me 3.09 and I was really happy with it, just struggling with getting out for 5 days running. I have Berlin for Sept next year so was thinking of trying this for Cork in June. See how it goes.

I got a very similar time to you having followed p+d 55 but I was way off with this plan.

noelearly

ooter wrote: »

I got a very similar time to you having followed p+d 55 but I was way off with this plan.

Do you think that was down to you coming back from injury and not having enough base done??

ger664

It does state that you need a good base. This and other short mileage but more intense plans really suit someone who has the endurance built up over several marathon cycles. If you have 3+ done recently and find now you have plateaued then go for it otherwise give P&D another run out.

ooter

noelearly wrote: »

Do you think that was down to you coming back from injury and not having enough base done??

Yeah maybe so, I was going to follow p+d 55 again for London but I was worried about a reoccurrence of the injury.