The Sub 3 Support Thread

Pronator

I recently completed Berlin but only took a multi vitamin. Last year for Dublin I took on Iron in liquid form, I stopped taking it about 2 weeks from DCM. I never really felt tired during my DCM training (I'm putting this down to enough Vit B and Iron intake). For Berlin I was tired during the schedule, I put this down to increased mileage and a tougher schedule but maybe it was a lack of Iron.

I've no medical proof of this, just a hunch? I guess what's right for one person may not be right for another?

I am down for London 2013, I think I may go back to taking iron and see if this makes any difference??

Rolex_

For the avoidance of doubt.... I wouldn't recommend anyone take iron supplements unless that course of action is advised by your doctor and ordinarily that advice should be based on one ore more FBC/ferritin blood tests.
Taking too much iron can be harmful for your health, especially if you have a tendancy towards iron overload. It is most unlikely however that you would suffer from iron overload as a result solely of eating iron-rich foods in your diet or as a result of multivitamins supplements containing iron alone.
Bottom line.. 1) if you don't have an iron deficiency , you don't need iron supplements. 2) You can't know you are iron deficient without a blood test and a medical opinion.

EauRouge79

Rolex_ wrote: »

Thanks A. Who knows we could be pacing each other for a sub 2:55 attempt in 2013. Stranger things have happened!
.

Hey, if you can get yourself regsitered for London in April I would be more than happy to give that sub 2.55 a lash!

tunguska

Rolex_ wrote: »

Thanks nerraw. The problem with commercial iron supplememts if they dont generally contain enough iron! If they did (being only slightly cynical here) their market audience wouldn't continue to purchase them because iron in high dose is hard to tolerate- it causes nausea and constipation. I would focus on eating lots of high iron content foods (dark green veg., dried fruit, red meat, nuts... amongst others). I'd still advise regular marathoners and very heavy mileage junkies to get their FBC and Ferritin done at least once a year. If Hb and/or ferritin are low high dose prescribed iron is needed really to get you race fit in a reasonable time frame.

Was feeling very ropey a few weeks back, got iron tested and Haemoglobin was on the low side. Not anemic or anything, but low enough to knock the crap outta me. Havent eaten red meat since I was a kid but reluctantly have had to start taking it in a few time a week. Also been taking ferrograd C. Its only been 3 weeks but I feel brand new. Maybe thats a placebo effect, who knows. But I'd agree with getting iron tested every couple of months if you're a runner. Intense sessions and high volume seem to just leech iron from the body.
The other problem though is with iron inhibitors. Tannins in tea and pyhtates arent conductive to iron absorption where as something like orange juice is. Theres also Heme and non-heme sources of iron. Plant based foods would be non-Heme whereas red meat is Heme. And from what I;ve read, Heme is where its at when it comes to sports. I mean the average punter would be grand with just non-heme, but anybody engaged in a fair bit of activity would suffer through a lack of Heme based foods such as red meat. I suppose the big question could be, is there a way to get all the iron you need, as an athlete, without having to eat red meat?

grimbergen

That's interesting Tunguska. When you say is there a way around eating red meat for an athlete - are you asking from an ethical/personal point of view and not the athletics presumably? I picked up a running magazine in the airport about 6 months ago and 4 top US coaches were giving their opinions on all aspects of an athlete's opinion. Anyway on diet, one recommended a steak on the morning of eery major run...

Rolex_

tunguska wrote: »

Was feeling very ropey a few weeks back, got iron tested and Haemoglobin was on the low side. Not anemic or anything, but low enough to knock the crap outta me. Havent eaten red meat since I was a kid but reluctantly have had to start taking it in a few time a week. Also been taking ferrograd C. Its only been 3 weeks but I feel brand new. Maybe thats a placebo effect, who knows. But I'd agree with getting iron tested every couple of months if you're a runner. Intense sessions and high volume seem to just leech iron from the body.
The other problem though is with iron inhibitors. Tannins in tea and pyhtates arent conductive to iron absorption where as something like orange juice is. Theres also Heme and non-heme sources of iron. Plant based foods would be non-Heme whereas red meat is Heme. And from what I;ve read, Heme is where its at when it comes to sports. I mean the average punter would be grand with just non-heme, but anybody engaged in a fair bit of activity would suffer through a lack of Heme based foods such as red meat. I suppose the big question could be, is there a way to get all the iron you need, as an athlete, without having to eat red meat?

Hi Tunguska as I posted above next time you decide to get your Hb checked make sure they check your Ferritin too (requires a separate sample). You might well have found last time that your iron stores (as measured by your Ferritin) were extremely low even though your Hb was ok-ish. All your iron stores will be diverted to your blood cells for Haemoglobin synthesis. Unfortunately runners also need iron for proper enzyme function when they are running so if you are iron depleted you will underperform even if your Hb is ok.

If anyone is interested in reading a bit more about the theory PM me and I can send on a link.

Agree fully with your synopsis on iron sources. And interestingly I had pretty much stopped eating red meat for 2-3 months before Berlin. Lesson learnt...

Dutchie

Rolex_ wrote: »

Agree fully with your synopsis on iron sources. And interestingly I had pretty much stopped eating red meat for 2-3 months before Berlin. Lesson learnt...

GB guy I used to train with was vegetarian for most of his adult life. He was always knocking on the door of finals and when he did make a final he always placed mid-field to last.

Anyway he started back eating a full balanced diet including red meat 6 months before Athens 2004- He went on to win an Olympic Bronze medal!

He would have probably won gold if he had not sprained his ankle getting off the team bus the night before his final!

nerraw1111

Equally, you have Scott Jurek, who is a vegan, smashing all sorts of ultra records. He recently wrote a column about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-jurek/ultramarathon-running-diet_b_1587874.html

myflipflops

Dutchie wrote: »

GB guy I used to train with was vegetarian for most of his adult life. He was always knocking on the door of finals and when he did make a final he always placed mid-field to last.

Anyway he started back eating a full balanced diet including red meat 6 months before Athens 2004- He went on to win an Olympic Bronze medal!

He would have probably won gold if he had not sprained his ankle getting off the team bus the night before his final!

Steve Smith??

ThePiedPiper

I may as well write up a bit of a report when it's fresh in my head.

Background
When I ran 3:22 in London this year, I really enjoyed the race and was happy with the time considering the training done. With college work taking priority over running from March-May, it was just about doing the race, and finishing it respectably. I didn't run a mile until 23rd May, but entered the Budapest marathon that week, and set up some sort of a vague plan on how I'd get under three hours again.

The training
The few weeks from the end of May until the start of July was just about getting myself back up to 40-50 mile weeks, not worrying much about speed at first, just getting the body ready for the real work which was to come. I got myself back into decent shape fairly quickly, ran 18.10ish for 5k and 38.10ish for 10k in the space of a few days. Not super fast, but PBs and a bit of a confidence booster all the same.

For the last 3 weeks of July, I'd the opportunity to do a lot of training. I sort of follow Lydiard and Canova's ideas a little bit, and decided to use July as a high mileage base-building period. In those 3 weeks, I ran twice daily, nearly all easy pace. I think the total for that 20 day block of training was 320 miles. Unfortunately, I got bitten by a dog on the hamstring at the very end of the last run. Doctor's advice was a week or two rest. 10 days later, I very tentatively entered a 5 miler, and was delighted to finish 4th in 29:45. A good 4 miler in 23:30 the next week convinced me that the 3 weeks base-building did a lot for me. Now, time for proper marathon training.

I don't follow any training plans really, but marathon specific training usually is between 50-65 miles per week. I decided to make the Yasso 800s one of the key sessions for this training cycle. I usually did these on Tuesdays. Wednesday I'd do a marathon-paced or tempo run with the lads at the club and weekends would be either 18, 20 or 21. I kept the other days easy, but always between 7:40-7:55 pace, never slower. I'd a very decent run-out at the National halfs, clocking 1:23:30 without tapering at all for it so was happy with the progression. I hit all the PMP miles planned in the long runs, so was feeling pretty confident.

Race Weekend
When we got off the flight in Budapest, there was some malfunction with sensors on the security doors, meaning we were locked in a glass room for close to an hour!! That, and the usual dramas getting to hotels reminded why I always travel 2 days prior to a marathon these days. The hotel was ideally situated on Heros Square, 500 metres from the race centre, start and finish. On Saturday, I did a couple of miles, and basked in the 25 degree sunshine. Scorching. I could do without that on race day. Myself and Mrs RFR decided to do the bus city tour to stay off our feet. Managed to eat and drink plenty of food and water over the day and felt fairly relaxed.

Race Day
Is this a race report, you're asking?!! Yes, finally, I'm at the race day part.
OK, I got up at 6, had breakfast and drank 600 ml of sparkling water! Couldn't find still anywhere. Actually managed to go back to sleep for an hour, then we took ourselves off down to the start at 9.10. The weather was much cooler, cloudy and no wind. Ideal running temp of about 14 degrees. I slotted myself in with the sub-3 pace group and we were off.

The first mile was perfect, exactly 6:52. However, after this, the sub-3 pacers got a bit excited; 6:39, 6:31, 6:29 in miles 2-4. I hadn't planned on this. This is one of the reasons I messed up DCM 2011, too fast early on. I decided to leave them go and run my own pace, knowing I'd probably take them back later on. Settled back into 6:38-6:45 for the next few miles, the pace group just a couple hundred metres up the road from me.

In Budapest, there's a 30 km and marathon relay going on the same time as the marathon itself. Some of these runners were slower and there was a bit of congestion for a while. It settled by about 12 miles. At this point, I'd been getting a steadily increasing pain in my foot. I'd tied the bloody lace too tight and could feel it starting to bleed. I had to make a decision, stop and fix it or motor on. I'd caught the pace group at this stage, but knew that this pain would only get worse, so I'd no real option. After fixing myself up, here I was again 30 seconds behind the sub-3 group, and at this stage, there were very few stragglers behind the group, or they were slowing. Not exactly going according to plan so far!!

I reached halfway in 1:29:08, which was grand. Exactly as planned I suppose, despite the stopping. At this point, one of the 3 hour pacers pulled up at the side of the road in distress injured. Bad omen. I decided there and then that I needed to catch the group and stay with them or I'd be in no man's land. I hauled them back with a couple of 6:3x miles and fell into a fairly good rhythm then. I was taking my gels every 5 miles, even though the fizzy water had left my stomach feeling a bit dodgey. From 15-20, I felt great, and was right on the shoulder of our one remaining pacer. The group was getting smaller, there were probably only around 8 of us left by 22 miles but we were still running between 6:37-6:43 pace.

My original plan had been to stay with the pacers until 18 and then push on. However, the sub-3 pacer was really a sub 2:58 pacer at this stage, so I didn't really feel the need. At 23, I was really starting to suffer, but was still right there. I knew sub-3 was in the bag, even 8 minute miles would have been fine now. I had to really convince myself at this point that I wanted a PB so kept working. The whole group was starting to fall apart a bit at this stage, I decided at 24 I'd try and head for home. Half a mile later, the pacer was beside me again. Mile 25 was 7:03, really hurting now. Mile 26, there's really no group left, just random zombees in various stages of distress. 7:06 - I've no idea how I didnt' lose more time. At 42km, Mrs RFR cheered me on and I knew I'd have the PB. No sprint, not anything. Just sheer delight and relief to get across the line in 2:58:16. A personal best by 7 seconds for 75th place overall. Wrecked, nearly falling over, but absolutely delighted. Job done.

PaulieYifter

RunForestRun wrote: »

I reached halfway in 1:29:08,

.
.
.

Just sheer delight and relief to get across the line in 2:58:16.

Well done - great stuff.
Is that a positive or a negative split?

(I've always thought I'm a bit OCD about how tight I tie my laces but your experience is going to make me worse)

Dutchie

RunForestRun wrote: »

I may as well write up a bit of a report when it's fresh in my head.

No sprint, not anything. Just sheer delight and relief to get across the line in 2:58:16. A personal best by 7 seconds for 75th place overall. Wrecked, nearly falling over, but absolutely delighted. Job done.

Well done Forest, what a result.

Your post was like reading a the pages of a good thriller. I had to stop myself scrolling to the bottom straight away to see 'if he dun' it'!

ThePiedPiper

Dead even splits, to the second. A bit mental over such a long race to just scrape the PB, in a very different race from the previous 2:58. I probably emptied the tank completely in miles 22-24, whereas in my previous sub-3, I emptied it in 24-26. Same end result. More than one way to skin a cat I suppose.

Dutchie

PaulieYifter wrote: »

Well done - great stuff.
Is that a positive or a negative split?

Depends if you're a glass-half-empty or glass-half-full man!

KielyUnusual

Great race report. Hitchcock would have been proud with that kind of suspense. His endings generally aren't quite so uplifting so you'll have to work on that:p. A couple of things were working to conspire against you but you kept the head and paced the race perfectly. Pushing on for the PB at the end when you were struggling is the kind of moment in the race that you look back on with real pride. Enjoy the celebrations.

nerraw1111

Great race RFR, impressive stuff given the laces etc. Excellent race report too.

EauRouge79

Prepare to be bored to tears!:) my 1st ever report.

Running Background:
12th Marathon. Gradually improving from original 3:45 in Dublin 6 years ago. PB OF 3:05 in Dublin 2011. This is my first structured training plan.



Training:

Printed a sub3 training plan from runners world at end of May. Had me running 4 days a week. Usually 2xeasy run (7.40pace), 1x temp/speedwork (down to 5.50pace) and 1 LSR(just below 7.30pace)

I was graduating from a far too casual 3 days a week with to little mileage and with work and kids etc, I had to hoped that 4 days a week would cut it. There may have been the odd week that I stuck in a 5th run.

For my speed work i tended to look for local 5mile/10k races, finding it easier to really push myself in a race environment.

Only joined a club a couple of months back and found running with others including "Rolex" was of great benefit and we also had the same goals for Berlin.



Pre Race:

Had a small injury scare 3 weeks out with a calf tear, a week off and 2 visits to the physio was thankfully able to sort that.

Happy with my training, but as usual second guessed myself every day in the weeks leading up to the race. Taper madness.

Arrived in Berlin on Wednesday with wife and daughter. The Zoo on Thursday, Expo Friday morning before the real crowds. Getting to the expo was a disaster, mostly self inflicted though. one of the U Bahn stations was closed and we had to walk to the next. Took a wrong turn somewhere along a straight road! and 3 hours later arrived at the expo, with a big cranky head on me.
My 3 year old was delighted with life but daddy had enough. Collected the bags for Rolex, and myself and got out of Dodge!
Before leaving a guy was freely handing out sticker letters to change your pen at the start line so I stuck a "C" over our allocated "D" and we were all set.

Race Day:
After spending the previous day gorging on Pasta, pretzels and fruit I woke up and headed down for breakfast. My good wife sent me off on my own so I could "get in the zone". Good call.
Museli (no porridge on offer ), cofffe and a nice ham roll.
Bye to the family and headed off to meet Rolex at the Brandenburg gate for 8:15, was a bit late setting off, so got an early warm up in, legging it across Berlin!
We strolled to the start, nice and relaxed and into pen C. That sticker was a good call, D looked quite packed behind us.
Got a blast of German Techno from the DJ before the start and then we were off!

1-10km
We planned a 6:40-6:45 pace, just ahead of the pacers. They were having none of it! They went off at about 6:42. We were watching our watches for the first 5k and settled in about 150 metres behind the pacers and happy that our pace was fine at about 6:42.
1st Gel at 8k as planned.
5k in 21:10
10k in 42:09

11-20km
We had settled down nicely now and the pace felt comfortable. Then comes a sharp pain in my right ankle which worries me but only lasts about a mile.
The 3hr pace group had now dropped the pace a little and spread out to cover a 30sec spread and we pass the pacer at the back. Nicely reassuring to be in the group now. Thoughts now turn to how we will hydrate when the 500ml bottle in my hand runs out by halfway. Cups only are a disaster.
Still comfortable and thoughts are positive.
2nd Gel at 20k as planned.
15k in 1:03:05
20k in 1:24:08

21-30km
Big crowds at halfway which give you a great lift and we run throught at 1:28:40 exactly as planned. Another positive. Running becomes a bit bunched so need to be carefull nobody bumps the garmin and ruins my day.
We pass the lead 3hr pacers at about 15miles and this feels good. This is my favourite section of the course, nice leafy area with great running surface. Thoughts turn to water and i half fill my bottle with 2 cups as I run and drop in a NUUN tab. Just want to get to 20miles now in the best possible condition and take it from there.
At about 25k myself and Rolex chat about the pace which is still very steady, I look over my shoulder a little down the road and no sign of Rolex. This is a little disconcerting as I now feel im on my own for the 1st time and need to do it alone.
3rd & last gel at 30k.
25k in 1:45:12
30k in 2:06:02

31-40km
Still very comfortable and surprising my self a little, runners a bit spread out now so hang on to a group that I catch up to and decide to sit with then for a while and gather my thoughts. There is a funny frenchman in the group who grunts loudly with about every 10 strides, this is followed by Allez Allez! I think he is encouraging himself out loud. :rolleyes:
The average on the garmin is down to 6:38 at 36k and I feel that I might actually pull this off!:)
Getting tough as we get to potsdamer at 38k but passing out a car was nice encouragement (slow moving race sponsor car, still a car though )
Garmin tells me Im at 24 miles and just 2.2 to go. You run parralel with the race finish now and you know the end is in sight, but it never seems to get closer, long run up the slight hill to 40k+ when I finally turn left before the Zig Zag of streets onto Unter Den Linden. I run under the hose that is being sprayed by the firecrew. Get completely drowned by a larger than expected spray of water and the sunglasses have to come off.
35k in 2:26:56
40k in 2:48:06

Finish(finally, took us a while to get here! sorry)
Onto Unter Den Linden and the gate is in sight, depite the fact that the dream of sub 3 is in the bag im strangely annoyed that the garmin is telling me 26.2 miles in avg 6:38pace and I still have 800metres to go! Arrrgghhh
Under the gate to see my wife and daughter waving to my left in their bright green wigs!
Arms in the air and under the line in 2:58:08, Chip 2:57:30
Sub 3! Job Done, box ticked.

Only 2 downsides was that Rolex's cold caught up with him in the end. On course as far as 35k until the wheels came off, per his race report. He certainly was a great help to me over the past couple of months. Would have been great to finish together.
Im sure that sub3 will be sorted early in the new year!

Also missing the rest of the gang in the pub that evening was a pity but hopefully there will be another day.

myflipflops

Looks like you had the day I am hoping for on Sunday. Well done.

TFBubendorfer

You've come a long way in a pretty short period. Very well done indeed.

EauRouge79

myflipflops wrote: »

Looks like you had the day I am hoping for on Sunday. Well done.

The very best of luck with it.
I was as relaxed as I could possibly be beforehand, so keep the thoughts positive and run relaxed. I will allow you to "copy and paste" my race report on Monday!

jebuz

Clearlier wrote: »

Pick a 10k 2-3 weeks out and race it flat out. 38mins is around about the border line, if you go well under you'll do it, if you can't break 38:30 then I wouldn't think about it (which is not to say that it can't be done just that it wouldn't be sensible for a first time marathon runner unless they had years of running behind them). The bit in between is where I would tell an experienced marathon runner to run at pace to halfway and see how they feel.

You may remember me posting about a month ago after the Dublin 1/2 all giddy and contemplating pushing for a sub 3 on my first effort I've been training hard since with some great sessions and as advised above I did the said 10k race today to see where I'm at. I clocked a chip time of 37:17 (mind you I only registered 6.1 miles on my garmin) and while it was one of the toughest races I have ran, it's a huge huge boost now 2 weeks away from the big one, delighted with it and going to push on with the sub 3 plan now.

I've also managed to get shin splints over the last couple of weeks and was a little worried about today but got through unscathed. The physio recommended using kinseo tape and I was a little sceptical but it actually is decent stuff, noticed a big difference.

So I'm gonna stick with the plan of following with the 3hr pacers, and I'll give it my best shot on the day, actually are there any of you 3hr pacers on here?

Krusty_Clown

jebuz wrote: »

So I'm gonna stick with the plan of following with the 3hr pacers, and I'll give it my best shot on the day, actually are there any of you 3hr pacers on here?

Two of the three 3-hour pacers are Abhainn and Pronator. Well done in the 10k. A cracking time.

Abhainn

jebuz wrote: »

So I'm gonna stick with the plan of following with the 3hr pacers, and I'll give it my best shot on the day, actually are there any of you 3hr pacers on here?

Thanks KC.

jebuz follow the balloons;)

Krusty_Clown

Abhainn wrote: »

jebuz follow the balloons;)

Or don't. It's backpacks this year.

TRR

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Two of the three 3-hour pacers are Abhainn and Pronator. Well done in the 10k. A cracking time.

Wouldnt trust either of those two gangsters

robbicosta

Four of the guys I have been training with finished the Melbourne marathon on Sunday in under three hours. One in 2:49, one in 2:57, one in 2:58 and the fourth in a 2:59:59 gun and 2:58:54 net. Serious sprint finish.

This gives me heaps of confidence going into Dublin. Training has gone well so no excuses. Just have to look after the body over the next two weeks.

Flight home on Thursday. Cannot wait. Anybody doing taper runs around Dublin next week?

myflipflops

robbicosta wrote: »

Four of the guys I have been training with finished the Melbourne marathon on Sunday in under three hours. One in 2:49, one in 2:57, one in 2:58 and the fourth in a 2:59:59 gun and 2:58:54 net. Serious sprint finish.

Are you training with a club over here? Who is your mate that ran 2.49? He must have been on the 2.50 pace bus with me for the first half?

Krusty_Clown

Here is a really good lesson on why you should not limit yourself to a specific time goal, but rather, run based on feel. Myflipflops sub-3 report.

EauRouge79

Superb report myflipflops. Thanks needed some material to read with my sandwich.
Well done, great run.

Dutchie

Anybody care to advise what session they are doing tomorrow.

My program says 6 miles easy (too easy imo)
I'm thinking between 8-10 close to PMP
A coach i was talking to earlier reckons 12miles with 6@pmp.

thanks.