The Sub 3 Support Thread

myflipflops

rom wrote: »

Running is an inexpensive sport compared with a lot of others. Race numbers in places are up by a similar ratio with the recession. So it is just being reflected in the numbers getting sub 3 of posters on here. I don't think it anything else tbh.

No doubt there is a bigger percentage of posters going sub 3 and running quicker times than ever before.

Increased numbers lower average standards in general whereas there seems to be a huge increase in the standard around here.

RayCun

I'll take the doom and gloom position - lots of new posters are staying in their own little areas of the training logs, so the better runners are over-represented in the main forum.

TFBubendorfer

rom wrote: »

Running is an inexpensive sport compared with a lot of others. Race numbers in places are up by a similar ratio with the recession. So it is just being reflected in the numbers getting sub 3 of posters on here. I don't think it anything else tbh.

I don't think so, but I sure won't start counting posters and sub-3 finishers to get the correct ratio compared to 3 years ago.

I think a few of us started seeing someone who ran comparable times in other races achieve a sub-3 marathon and gained confidence that helped them to do the same, and it kind of developed from there.

I'm sure that the overall standard has improved recently, not just the numbers. It's still nowhere near where it used to be in the good old days, though. There's still plenty of room for improvement.

belcarra

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Maybe we're just seeing the improvements in the "early adopters." That is, the bunch of people who started running at the start of the current boom. Three years later, we're starting to see the standard among that group rise significantly?

That said, I do think the ART forum has had an effect too. Regular posters are seeing first hand what a bit of training can do. You see a log with a similar ability to you, go to sub 3 within a year etc

I think this is very true. From my lowly position I know the gang around me who might all have been struggling for sub 4hrs last year and managed sub 3:30 this year. Most will be back within the next 12-18months going for sub 3. It's the lag effect of training taking so long to kick-in for the more 'workmanlike' runners but we'll get there yet!;)

ergo

I'm just bumping this very useful old thread in case any boardsies are having a go at a sub 3 later this year...

Dutchie

Taking into account the lack of activity on this thread it appears that nobody is aiming for sub 3 this year

Anyways, for me training this year for DCM has changed.

shorter training cycle - 12 weeks v 16 weeks

Less early morning runs, more runs done in the eveining.

Listening to my body more, resting more.

Same Mileage approx 55 per week, but at the correct intensity. Fast

When i want to go fast and slow when program says slow. Race series half time dropped by 40 secs to 1:20:50, with lower overall HRM. Looking forward to DCM 2013. anybody else care to share their experiences, races, tips etc. good luck to all.

BeepBeep67

How are the long runs coming along, with a sub 81 for the half you should be in great shape if the endurance is there.

Dutchie

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

How are the long runs coming along, with a sub 81 for the half you should be in great shape if the endurance is there.

Ran 20m today. It was supposed to be with 6m @pmp from 12-18. ended up with 10m @pmp! felt really strong. Overall pace 6.53 avg hr 153.
I'm feeling good so far. Last year I 'forced' a lot of sessions. this year if I haven't felt good, like thursday morning at 6am, i've backed off and run the session easy.
How is your/others training going?

BeepBeep67

I'm just pacing DCM this year, will probably have another marathon crack in the spring.

ecoli

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I'm just pacing DCM this year, will probably have another marathon crack in the spring.

Rotterdam opens in 3 days.

BeepBeep67

ecoli wrote: »

Rotterdam opens in 3 days.

Feck off

ThePiedPiper

Suppose there's been a lot of migration from here to either the sub 2:50 thread or else to the Training Logs. Anyway, good to see that a few people might want to use this thread.

Dutchie, sounds like things are coming together very nicely for you. That's an excellent MP session, and very impressive avg speed over the 20 miles. Just a note of caution though, if its "just" 2:58 or 2:59 you're aiming for, then running just 3 or 4 seconds off sub-3 average pace for 20 miles may be on the damaging side of tough. I know a few years back when I was targeting sub-3 in Berlin, I ran a 20 miler at fairly close to MP for the distance. In and of itself, it wasn't the only reason for the 3:05 finish, but I do think that running the long runs too hard in that training cycle had a bearing.

Looking back at what worked for me in the previous sub-3 efforts, a LSR with the first 6/7 at MP+30 seconds, then 12 at MP, before a cool-down seemed to be about the optimal.

Saying all of that, with a sub 81 in the half, sub-3 would look to be very very likely.

Dutchie

Anyone care to share their LSR training runs over the next 2 weekends. I'm going to run 18m with 6-8@ PMP this weekend.

12-13 @pmp next weekend.

Anyone doing anything different?

Rolex_

Dutchie wrote: »

Anyone care to share their LSR training runs over the next 2 weekends. I'm going to run 18m with 6-8@ PMP this weekend.

12-13 @pmp next weekend.

Anyone doing anything different?

16 with [EMAIL="4x3@PMP"]4x3@PMP[/EMAIL] this weekend. 10-12 easy miles only next weekend.
[EMAIL="12-13@PMP"]12-13@PMP[/EMAIL] just a week before your goal marathon sounds a lot of stress on the body?

claralara

17 sleeps to go...

16@MP last weekend, 10k blow-out tomorrow, final long run on Monday or Tuesday... It's going to be a challenge but hopefully it'll all go according to plan. So far so good in all in anyways!

KielyUnusual

Rolex_ wrote: »

16 with [EMAIL="4x3@PMP"]4x3@PMP[/EMAIL] this weekend. 10-12 easy miles only next weekend.
[EMAIL="12-13@PMP"]12-13@PMP[/EMAIL] just a week before your goal marathon sounds a lot of stress on the body?

I've done 8-10 one week out and think this is a good sharpener. Shouldn't be too taxing if your target is realistic. Then maybe 2-3 miles @ MP during the week. 13 might be a few miles too far though.

Itziger

Dutchie wrote: »

Anyone care to share their LSR training runs over the next 2 weekends. I'm going to run 18m with 6-8@ PMP this weekend.

12-13 @pmp next weekend.

Anyone doing anything different?

Wow, that is very risky. I don't know anything about you or your training 'cept for these two posts here but I'd have to agree that 12 miles at PMP is a strange session 8 days out. I've never come across its likes on here anyway, that's for sure.

Itziger

Well almost exactly the same second that I was typing that KU was writing about a 10 miler at PMP one week before race. 12 or 13 still seems an awful lot. Maybe I'm just lazy and under-trained.

Rolex_

Itziger wrote: »

Well almost exactly the same second that I was typing that KU was writing about a 10 miler at PMP one week before race. 12 or 13 still seems an awful lot. Maybe I'm just lazy and under-trained.

I agree. I'll do some mile repeats at 10k pace 10 days out but very little anywhere close to MP after that - maybe 2 or 3 miles at the track on the Tuesday but no more.
There really isn't any advantage to doing a big chunk of hard work a week out IMHO... and the downside in terms of resuidual fatigue surely outweighs any minimal training benefit.

KielyUnusual

Itziger wrote: »

Well almost exactly the same second that I was typing that KU was writing about a 10 miler at PMP one week before race. 12 or 13 still seems an awful lot. Maybe I'm just lazy and under-trained.

8-10 miles:D. No necessity to go for the drastic option. A week is still a long time for recovery and it could help keep the mental cobwebs away. I took this one from RunForestRun so if anyone tries it and it doesn't work out they can blame him.

Gavlor

20 miler with 6 @ mp for me in the morning. I'll do 10-12 easy next weekend and will probably do a mile or 2 hmp as part of a midweek run before the marathon.

Dutchie

Wow, there has been more activity on this thread in the past hour than there has been in the past 6 months!

Personally, i found this thread a huge source of info last year. This year i feel I've trained better. More quality sessions less quantity. Pb's in 5k, 10k and half this season, all i have to do is keep the momentum going for DCM '13!
Anyone care to share their targets for DCM?

Rolex, how has training gone since last years disappointment?
KU, sub 2:50?

good luck to all

Rolex_

Dutchie wrote: »

Wow, there has been more activity on this thread in the past hour than there has been in the past 6 months!

Rolex, how has training gone since last years disappointment?

good luck to all

Hi Dutchie, thanks for asking. I picked up a niggly injury at the end of the year that just wouldn't go away so no speedwork / no high mileage /no racing for almost 6 months. I was philophical about it which wasn't that difficult as I never had to stop running completely. In hindsight it probably served me well as I would probably have done a spring marathon otherwise and the body benefitted from the break.
I haven't been in a marathon zone for the last year as a result - so I hadn't much to post!

I've been back racing since May/June. I've raced less than last year but have managed to pick up PBs at 5k, 4M, 5M, 10K & HM since May - some of them by pretty large margins.
I've done lots of things differently and hopefully it'll pay off in DCM (though I've taken a lot of the pressure off that by not making my marathon the be-all-and-end-all of my running it was before).

I won't tempt fate by making predictions but will share any lessons learned afterwards (if I learn any!) as I did last year.

Best of luck with your prep- mind the body! (clearly you are in great shape)

Dutchie

Rolex_ wrote: »

Hi Dutchie, thanks for asking. I picked up a niggly injury at the end of the year that just wouldn't go away so no speedwork / no high mileage /no racing for almost 6 months. I was philophical about it which wasn't that difficult as I never had to stop running completely. In hindsight it probably served me well as I would probably have done a spring marathon otherwise and the body benefitted from the break.
I haven't been in a marathon zone for the last year as a result - so I hadn't much to post!

I've been back racing since May/June. I've raced less than last year but have managed to pick up PBs at 5k, 4M, 5M, 10K & HM since May - some of them by pretty large margins.
I've done lots of things differently and hopefully it'll pay off in DCM (though I've taken a lot of the pressure off that by not making my marathon the be-all-and-end-all of my running it was before).

I won't tempt fate by making predictions but will share any lessons learned afterwards (if I learn any!) as I did last year.

Best of luck with your prep- mind the body! (clearly you are in great shape)

You have a really good perspective re DCM time.
The worst thing is other peoples perceptions of what 'good' times are. I ran 16.38 in a 5km cross country 2 weeks ago, finishing second! I was surprised how I ran considering i had completed a 20m LSR the previous day. To me this is my best result pro-rata ever. However, the only thing all my friends and family understand is how fast I have run the marathon, after all their sister/mother/cousin have run a marathon in 4.45.

dublin runner

Hey all. Hope all the training is going well. This week is my highest mileage of the cycle (86) so decided against a Parkrun tomorrow, particularly with my last longish run of 17 miles on Sunday. Next week the mileage drops to 50 so was thinking of of a Parkrun next week as a sharpener. Any thoughts? Wouldn't mind getting a bit of speed in the legs but wonder whether is it the best idea before DCM.

KielyUnusual

Dutchie wrote: »

Wow, there has been more activity on this thread in the past hour than there has been in the past 6 months!

Personally, i found this thread a huge source of info last year. This year i feel I've trained better. More quality sessions less quantity. Pb's in 5k, 10k and half this season, all i have to do is keep the momentum going for DCM '13!
Anyone care to share their targets for DCM?

Rolex, how has training gone since last years disappointment?
KU, sub 2:50?

good luck to all

I'll be part of the pacing crew this year so I have one very firm target. I nearly feel more pressure than if I was racing.
Re: the marathon paced run a week out from the marathon. I agree with Rolex in saying that there's no great physical benefit from doing this. Last year, I did it before the Dublin Marathon when I was feeling in great shape and was confident I could do it comfortably. For London this year, I had more of a stretch goal so only ran a 6 mile MP run a week out. I sort of knew that a 10 mile would be a bit risky in regard to recovery.
I would just judge it from how your training has gone so far and how quickly you've been recovering between sessions. Best of luck in Dublin.

KielyUnusual

dublin runner wrote: »

Hey all. Hope all the training is going well. This week is my highest mileage of the cycle (86) so decided against a Parkrun tomorrow, particularly with my last longish run of 17 miles on Sunday. Next week the mileage drops to 50 so was thinking of of a Parkrun next week as a sharpener. Any thoughts? Wouldn't mind getting a bit of speed in the legs but wonder whether is it the best idea before DCM.

If you're having second thoughts at this stage, I wouldn't do it. A 5k race can be very tiring if you go flat out and there's a good chance it could affect your marathon. Maybe consider running it at 10k-10 mile pace. That way you're getting the faster paced run in but you should recover relatively quickly.

ThePiedPiper

KU is being a bit modest not answering how well he has done over the last year, 2:48 in Dublin, then 2:37, give or take, in London!

Regarding that 8-10 PMP run, might not be for everyone, but for me, in the middle of a 2 week taper, it feels about right..

ainsyjnr

Hi all, I'm having a cracking at sub 3 at Dublin after following jack Daniels plan. I am down for 19 miles with 15@pmp today a tempo session in the week and 10 miles with 22min @ tempo next weekend.

I can see how an easy 10 miles at pmp a week before would be a nice confidence booster (or not!) a week before the race.

5 days out I am doing 4 X 1200m @ tempo with 2min recoveries just to keep the legs turning over.

Jack Daniels loves his tempo sessions, I've done some beauties in the last 12 weeks!

Krusty_Clown

ainsyjnr wrote: »

Hi all, I'm having a cracking at sub 3 at Dublin after following jack Daniels plan. I am down for 19 miles with 15@pmp today a tempo session in the week and 10 miles with 22min @ tempo next weekend.

Hi Ainsyjnr, I'm following the same plan (for the 2nd/3rd time). A couple of things you should be aware of:

1) The plans are written based on a US calendar (where the first day of the week is a Sunday). So typically, the Q1 session (19 mile with 15@pmp) should actually be done three weeks out, rather than two weeks out (with the Q1 taking place on a Sunday). Not to worry though, I'll be doing that exact session tomorrow, so no great harm in doing it two weeks out.

2) I reckon that the week 2 Q2 session is a typo or a cut and paste mistake. Specifically [2 x (35-40 mins easy, +15 to 20 mins T pace) + 2 miles easy]. For me that equates to a 22 mile session, with 7 miles @tempo pace, just 9/10 days out from your goal marathon. In my book, that's nuts. Looking at the elite plan, the equivalent session is far more manageable, so I'll be substituting that one in instead. It's: [2 Miles Easy + 3 x (2 Miles @Threshold with 2 mins easy) + 2 miles easy] = 10/11 miles.

It's a great plan and if you can get through all of those threshold sessions, sub-3 pace will feel like a breeze.