The Sub 3 Support Thread

Krusty_Clown

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Re pmp miles, generally speaking, how should you feel after it? I did 29km today with 23 at pmp and I was fairly wrecked.

Sounds about right.

nerraw1111

Cheers Krusty. That's good to know...i think!

iancairns

Hi Guys,

Hoping you don't mind me posting here as i can't find thread on breaking 3hrs 30mins!

You guys are probably the best people to ask for advice on this anyway.

I did the Dub Half Marathon in 1hr34mins50secs, broke my best by over 2 mins.

It was my first time running to a per mile set time, so i had runkeeper telling me if i was above or behind per mile.

It worked great and pushed me more than i would have gone, i actually got very used to 7 min miles by 10-13miles which suprised me.

On Saturday in prep for Marathon i ran 20 miles in 2hrs 40mins and was my first time running 20miles.

I did the first 13miles in 8min miles then from Mile 13-19miles i was pushing 7min miles again almost.

My question is, do i just try and run each mile at 8min per mile to hopefully break 3hrs 30mins or do i run first 18ish miles around 7hrs 45mins until last 6 miles where i'm sure i will inevitably slow down and struggle.

Do you use as much energy running 20miles 8 mins per mile as you would running 7mins 30 per mile.

Bear in mind after 20miles on Saturday training, it was my legs going and not my breath, strides were deffo getting shorter.

Would love advice on this!

Here's 20mile run from weekend

http://runkeeper.com/user/IanCairns/activity/119811694

Krusty_Clown

iancairns wrote: »

My question is, do i just try and run each mile at 8min per mile to hopefully break 3hrs 30mins or do i run first 18ish miles around 7hrs 45mins until last 6 miles where i'm sure i will inevitably slow down and struggle.

There is no such thing as 'inevitable slow-down'. There is only 'going out too fast' and 'being under-trained'. What you did for your 20 mile training run is called a negative split and is a perfect tactic for race-day. You should aim to run the first 20+ miles @8min/mile, and if your training has been sufficient for your goal, pick up the pace as you move closer to the finish line (or maintain a consistent pace, which is also a perfect strategy).

If you have trained for a goal of sub 3:30 (e.g. 8 min/mile) and run the first 15-20 miles at 7:45 or faster, this is called a positive split, and is a sure-fire way of minimizing the chances that you will hit your goal, while maximizing the chances that you will have a horrible experience. You will use a lot more energy running at a pace for which you have not trained, rather than running at your trained planned pace.

My advice (if I may be so bold): run more 20 mile runs (including lots of 8 minute/miles, with the latter miles faster if you can manage it) then on race day: find the 3:30 pacers and stick with them (at least until the 22 mile marker, when if you have the energy - head for home). Also, on race day, forget runkeeper and print yourself out a pace band and bring a stop-watch.

ThePiedPiper

Definitely don't try and bank time in the first 20 miles of the race. For every mile you bank 10-15 seconds for the first 20, you'll likely lose a minute a mile if you've gone too fast. I've often been 2-3 minutes up on sub-3 efforts at 20 miles only to finish in 3:05-3:07. The one marathon out of thirteen I actually feel like I completely nailed, I ran a 2 minute negative split.

tunguska

iancairns wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Hoping you don't mind me posting here as i can't find thread on breaking 3hrs 30mins!

You guys are probably the best people to ask for advice on this anyway.

I did the Dub Half Marathon in 1hr34mins50secs, broke my best by over 2 mins.

It was my first time running to a per mile set time, so i had runkeeper telling me if i was above or behind per mile.

It worked great and pushed me more than i would have gone, i actually got very used to 7 min miles by 10-13miles which suprised me.

On Saturday in prep for Marathon i ran 20 miles in 2hrs 40mins and was my first time running 20miles.

I did the first 13miles in 8min miles then from Mile 13-19miles i was pushing 7min miles again almost.

My question is, do i just try and run each mile at 8min per mile to hopefully break 3hrs 30mins or do i run first 18ish miles around 7hrs 45mins until last 6 miles where i'm sure i will inevitably slow down and struggle.

Do you use as much energy running 20miles 8 mins per mile as you would running 7mins 30 per mile.

Bear in mind after 20miles on Saturday training, it was my legs going and not my breath, strides were deffo getting shorter.

Would love advice on this!

Are you doing the dublin marathon? If you are then be aware that the first half is slower than the second half so I'd definitely suggest you negative split the race. Your half in the park was 95mins more or less so if I were you I'd aim to go through halfway in the marathon in 1hr 40. By doing this you should feel brand new at halfway. Once you get to the walkinstown roundabout take it up a notch. Nothing too dramatic but definitley hit a higher gear. Keep that pace until just after the 20mile point as at 20miles theres a decent hill to contend with. Theres a turn left at the top of that hill and at this point theres a nice downhill. I'd suggest that you go all out at this stage because the remainder of the race is flat - downhill(apart from small climb up ucd flyover). a 1hr 40min half split will take you well under 3:30 but even then I dont think running at that pace will give you too much trouble if you can run a half on its own at 95mins.
The alternative is to run with the 3:30 pacers for 20miles then gun it for the last 10k, which is a great option I think.

iancairns

tunguska wrote: »

Are you doing the dublin marathon? If you are then be aware that the first half is slower than the second half so I'd definitely suggest you negative split the race. Your half in the park was 95mins more or less so if I were you I'd aim to go through halfway in the marathon in 1hr 40. By doing this you should feel brand new at halfway. Once you get to the walkinstown roundabout take it up a notch. Nothing too dramatic but definitley hit a higher gear. Keep that pace until just after the 20mile point as at 20miles theres a decent hill to contend with. Theres a turn left at the top of that hill and at this point theres a nice downhill. I'd suggest that you go all out at this stage because the remainder of the race is flat - downhill(apart from small climb up ucd flyover). a 1hr 40min half split will take you well under 3:30 but even then I dont think running at that pace will give you too much trouble if you can run a half on its own at 95mins.
The alternative is to run with the 3:30 pacers for 20miles then gun it for the last 10k, which is a great option I think.

Hi, your advice seems great. Yep doing Dub Marathon.

The guy above was suggesting doing a few more 20 miles but running out of time so will prob only get one more before Marathon.

My stride did shorthen around mile 20 on Saturday but breath and cardio felt good so figured i could get through it certainly.

So you reckon if i can do a 95min marathon i could probably do 3hrs 30 min marathon? I'd love that, i might try the 1hr40min first half suggestion then and gun it after 21miles.

I've been running for last year twice a week, 10-12mile on weekend and 5-6 mile during week. That's got me to where i'm at.

What advice would you give for last 3 weeks before marathon, every bit of advice says miles, miles and miles on clock but pretty sure that doesn't work for me.

I was thinking 2 quickish 6 mile runs during week and 50km cycle or so at weekend?

Also do the 3hr 30mins pace setters just stick to same pace per mile whole time?

ThePiedPiper

Iancairns,

There's no reason not to do another couple of 20 mile runs. If I was you and was doing DCM, I'd have the following schedule probably:
30/09 20 miles with 5 PMP (planned marathon pace).
7/10 18 miles with 7 PMP
13/10 20 miles with 8-10 PMP
21/10 10 miles with 7-8 PMP

That schedule still leaves 16 days of tapering between your last 20 mile run and marathon day. This is plenty of time.

The approx schedule I've been following over the past few weeks looks something like this:
Monday - easy 6
Tuesday - 10 x 800m at 2:50-2:59 with 1 min 40 rest between intervals.
Wednesday - 10-12 mile progressive tempo
Thursday - easy 5
Friday - easy 4
Saturday - off
Sunday - 18-21 with 8-12 PMP miles

You can see that Tuesday, Wednesday and Sunday are the key sessions and the total weekly mileage is usually in the region of 50-60. I'm not suggesting that you should do those exact sort of sessions, but maybe 5 x 800m or 8 x 400m would be a good introduction into it to get some speed into the legs. The progressive tempo run is usually between marathon and 10k pace and is a great session. It might be better for this to be switched to a Thursday, but my club train on Wednesdays so that's when I do it.

Regarding tapering, If I was doing DCM, I would run approx half of the mileage in the week ending 21/10 that I did in the week ending 13/10. So, if you are running in and around 50 miles per week, you should halve the distances in your various training sessions, but maintain the intensity. In the week of the marathon itself, cut back completely, maybe just easy runs of 3-5 miles on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

Hope this is of some help to you.

iancairns

RunForestRun wrote: »

Iancairns,

There's no reason not to do another couple of 20 mile runs. If I was you and was doing DCM, I'd have the following schedule probably:
30/09 20 miles with 5 PMP (planned marathon pace).
7/10 18 miles with 7 PMP
13/10 20 miles with 8-10 PMP
21/10 10 miles with 7-8 PMP

That schedule still leaves 16 days of tapering between your last 20 mile run and marathon day. This is plenty of time.

The approx schedule I've been following over the past few weeks looks something like this:
Monday - easy 6
Tuesday - 10 x 800m at 2:50-2:59 with 1 min 40 rest between intervals.
Wednesday - 10-12 mile progressive tempo
Thursday - easy 5
Friday - easy 4
Saturday - off
Sunday - 18-21 with 8-12 PMP miles

You can see that Tuesday, Wednesday and Sunday are the key sessions and the total weekly mileage is usually in the region of 50-60. I'm not suggesting that you should do those exact sort of sessions, but maybe 5 x 800m or 8 x 400m would be a good introduction into it to get some speed into the legs. The progressive tempo run is usually between marathon and 10k pace and is a great session. It might be better for this to be switched to a Thursday, but my club train on Wednesdays so that's when I do it.

Regarding tapering, If I was doing DCM, I would run approx half of the mileage in the week ending 21/10 that I did in the week ending 13/10. So, if you are running in and around 50 miles per week, you should halve the distances in your various training sessions, but maintain the intensity. In the week of the marathon itself, cut back completely, maybe just easy runs of 3-5 miles on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

Hope this is of some help to you.

Thanks again great feedback.

Basically this year i've taken up running and i've just tried to incorporate it into my lifestyle and maintaining it. I find 2 runs a week is realistic and i look forward to them still (Phoenix Park is my savior, we're so lucky to have it, just discovered really properly this year) I fit in around 5 a side either Tues/Wed and 90 Mins spin class

What does PMP stand for btw?

I will deffo try tho the 800mm interval running, my mate who runs 10km in 36mins swears it was the next step to breaking 40min 10km's (haven't yet).
Do you take 1 min 40sec break after each 800mm is it?

The reason i'm stuck for time to do more 20 milers is i'm off to Ibiza for 5 days this Saturday (I know seriously not ideal prep!) Will do an 8 miler Sat morning and a 90min spin class on Thursday after i'm back.

Following weekend i'm in London visiting GF also.

I'm gonna be realistic in what i can do between now and Marathon

I'm thinking

FRI 28/9 - 9 Miler @ 7:30 pace
(IBIZA 4 days)
THURS 4/10 - 90 Min Spin
(LONDON 3 days)
TUES 9/10 - 10km @ 7:30
WED 10/10 - 10 x 800m Interval Training / 5 a side
THURS 11/0 - 90Min spin
SAT 13/10 - 20Miler
SUN 14/10 - 50km cycle
WED 17/10 - 10 x 800mm Interval Training
THURS 18/10 - 90Min spin
SAT 20/10 - 10-12mile run
SUN 21/10 - 50km Cycle

Week of Marathon - Spin class Tues and Thursday?

Is that alright, obviously Ibiza is not ideal

TFBubendorfer

iancairns wrote: »

What does PMP stand for btw?

Planned Marathon Pace (or Projected ... same thing)

iancairns wrote: »

Is that alright, obviously Ibiza is not ideal

What's stopping you from doing some running in Ibiza (or London)? (And don't say hangover, that's no excuse)

PaulieYifter

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My advice (if I may be so bold): run more 20 mile runs (including lots of 8 minute/miles, with the latter miles faster if you can manage it) then on race day: find the 3:30 pacers and stick with them (at least until the 22 mile marker, when if you have the energy - head for home). Also, on race day, forget runkeeper and print yourself out a pace band and bring a stop-watch.

+1 on this.

95 min half marathon suggests 3:20 marathon according to McMillan

If this is your 1st marathon then I'd definitely add 10 mins to this predictor.

Best of luck whatever you do and enjoy it.

iancairns

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Planned Marathon Pace (or Projected ... same thing)




What's stopping you from doing some running in Ibiza (or London)? (And don't say hangover, that's no excuse)

Only Carry on luggage an excuse?

nerraw1111

Ibiza is ok for running. Did a few runs along promenade and up the castle. Can be tough but shifts the hangover and some great views.

Then you're free for the longer endurance events. Make sure you head to DC10

TFBubendorfer

iancairns wrote: »

Only Carry on luggage an excuse?

:rolleyes: No. STFU and run

KielyUnusual

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Ibiza is ok for running. Did a few runs along promenade and up the castle. Can be tough but shifts the hangover and some great views.

Then you're free for the longer endurance events. Make sure you head to DC10

I'd much rather be running in Ibiza than in that rainy, windy mess that I'm looking out at, at the moment. Besides, running is the best way to go for a bit of scenic sightseeing.

opus

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's the one thing that bothered me about the P&D plans (particularly the second generation of the book); there just didn't seem to be a great number of PMP runs and towards the end of the training plan, there were no marathon pace miles at all (with the exception of 2 PMP miles in the final week). I typically supplemented the long runs with PMP miles, or faster section (e.g. progression runs) to fill the gap. Daniels (Plan A) on the other hand has two 15 mile marathon pace runs (for 19 miles in total) 7 weeks and 3 weeks out from the race.

Interestingly the Furman FIRST plan I'm following for DCM despite having quite low weekly mileage (~35 miles/week) has plenty of running at or close to PMP eg

week 7 - 16k @ MP, 24k @ MP + 12sec
week 6 - 8k @ MP, 32k @ MP + 19sec
week 5 - 16k @ MP, 24k @ MP + 9sec <- we are here at the moment!
week 4 - 13k @ MP, 32k @ MP + 9sec
week 3 - 21k @ MP
week 2 - 16k @ MP
week 1 - 5k @ MP, plus DCM itself

Will be interesting to see how it works out in few weeks.

ThePiedPiper

For DCM 2011, I did a lot of 10-12 mile runs at MP+45 seconds or in and around. There were also plenty of sessions of faster than marathon pace, and the only time doing marathon pace was usually in the long runs. For this one, I've tried doing a lot more of my training at MP or within 10 seconds of it.

Lastnight I did 6 miles, the first 1/2 a mile at 8 min mile pace. This, for some reason, felt like I was working to find a rhythm. When I upped the pace to 6:45, it felt completely comfortable. Recovery runs and slower paced runs definitely have their place, without a shadow of a doubt. But, for me at least, if I plan on running 26.2 miles at 6:45 pace, I want to be very comfortable with this pace, and used to it.

From what I've read on Canova's methods, a huge amount of the training is within 10% of MP. If it works for them lads, that's good enough for me.

Dutchie

RunForestRun wrote: »

For DCM 2011, I did a lot of 10-12 mile runs at MP+45 seconds or in and around. There were also plenty of sessions of faster than marathon pace, and the only time doing marathon pace was usually in the long runs. For this one, I've tried doing a lot more of my training at MP or within 10 seconds of it.

Lastnight I did 6 miles, the first 1/2 a mile at 8 min mile pace. This, for some reason, felt like I was working to find a rhythm. When I upped the pace to 6:45, it felt completely comfortable. Recovery runs and slower paced runs definitely have their place, without a shadow of a doubt. But, for me at least, if I plan on running 26.2 miles at 6:45 pace, I want to be very comfortable with this pace, and used to it.

From what I've read on Canova's methods, a huge amount of the training is within 10% of MP. If it works for them lads, that's good enough for me.

Ah forest man, I ran 12 miles tempo last night based on your advise posted prevously. Avg pace was 6.16 (very windy).

To say I was tired after it would be an understatement !
Great session though. It's amazing how one can sustain a quick pace (for me that is) over along time.

Is there any truth in the rumour that yourself an Krusty are at an advanced stage in writing "KC's and RFR sub 3 hour marathon program 2013" available in all good book shops for €29.99!

Krusty_Clown

Dutchie wrote: »

Ah forest man, I ran 12 miles tempo last night based on your advise posted prevously. Avg pace was 6.16 (very windy).

To say I was tired after it would be an understatement !
Great session though. It's amazing how one can sustain a quick pace (for me that is) over along time.

Is there any truth in the rumour that yourself an Krusty are at an advanced stage in writing "KC's and RFR sub 3 hour marathon program 2013" available in all good book shops for €29.99!

Jaysus Dutche, what's your marathon target? If you can managed 12 miles on a windy day at 6:16/mile, then I hope it's a bloody aggressive target (if you continued at that pace, it's a 1:22 half marathon, in training). What's the goal?

iancairns

RunForestRun wrote: »

For DCM 2011, I did a lot of 10-12 mile runs at MP+45 seconds or in and around. There were also plenty of sessions of faster than marathon pace, and the only time doing marathon pace was usually in the long runs. For this one, I've tried doing a lot more of my training at MP or within 10 seconds of it.

Lastnight I did 6 miles, the first 1/2 a mile at 8 min mile pace. This, for some reason, felt like I was working to find a rhythm. When I upped the pace to 6:45, it felt completely comfortable. Recovery runs and slower paced runs definitely have their place, without a shadow of a doubt. But, for me at least, if I plan on running 26.2 miles at 6:45 pace, I want to be very comfortable with this pace, and used to it.

From what I've read on Canova's methods, a huge amount of the training is within 10% of MP. If it works for them lads, that's good enough for me.

This is what i was also surprised at.

When i did a 20mile run on Saturday, i ran first 13miles at 8min miles and then picked up to about 7:20min miles after for last 7 miles and didn't feel any worse, if anything more comfortable of a rhythm.

Less time on feet if that makes sense? It was more my feet and stride deteriorated after 20miles so maybe better to run a fast pace for first 20miles and legs won't be in as bad shape as less time running? Make sense?

Dutchie

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Dutchie wrote: »

Ah forest man, I ran 12 miles tempo last night based on your advise posted prevously. Avg pace was 6.16 (very windy).

To say I was tired after it would be an understatement !
Great session though. It's amazing how one can sustain a quick pace (for me that is) over along time.

Is there any truth in the rumour that yourself an Krusty are at an advanced stage in writing "KC's and RFR sub 3 hour marathon program 2013" available in all good book shops for €29.99!

Jaysus Dutche, what's your marathon target? If you can managed 12 miles on a windy day at 6:16/mile, then I hope it's a bloody aggressive target (if you continued at that pace, it's a 1:22 half marathon, in training). What's the goal?

Did I not mention it was a tail wind all the way!

ThePiedPiper

Dutchie wrote: »

Ah forest man, I ran 12 miles tempo last night based on your advise posted prevously. Avg pace was 6.16 (very windy).

To say I was tired after it would be an understatement !
Great session though. It's amazing how one can sustain a quick pace (for me that is) over along time.

Is there any truth in the rumour that yourself an Krusty are at an advanced stage in writing "KC's and RFR sub 3 hour marathon program 2013" available in all good book shops for €29.99!

12 miles at Marathon pace, I definitely would stand by that. I should have said in my earlier post that for DCM 2011, the slower miles went against me in the end and I didn't perform as well as I'd done in Seville 2011 where I did much more MP stuff. 12 miles at MP is an excellent midweek session.

What the hell is your marathon pace though? Are you going for a 2:50 or a 2:59? That's a serious session you just did. Sub 3 pace should feel like a doddle.

I wouldn't put myself and Krusty in the same bracket at all. He's ran marathons much faster than me. I suppose I've learnt a lot from having gone for 2:55 marathons and missing the target, and ran one very good safe race at 2:58. My three near misses with 3 hours taught me as much as my actual sub-3. However, Krusty is definitely the superior authority in this thread, no question. If you want, you can just send me the 29.99 as a prepayment on the book, but there's no refunds in the event of it not going to print.

ThePiedPiper

iancairns wrote: »

Less time on feet if that makes sense? It was more my feet and stride deteriorated after 20miles so maybe better to run a fast pace for first 20miles and legs won't be in as bad shape as less time running? Make sense?

In a way, this makes sense, but it wouldn't be a good race strategy. By the time you get to the marathon, if you run 6:50 for the first 20 miles, you should still feel fresh. At that point, the last 6 should be hard work of course, but not a complete nightmare.

However, if you're considering doing the first 20 miles at 6:40 pace and then crusing in, I would think it risky. My first 2 miles in DCM 2011 were 6:29 and 6:28. It felt fine, only 10 seconds quicker than goal pace. However, it well and truely bit me in the ass at 19 miles.

MP+20 seconds should feel very, very comfortable on long runs in the next couple of weeks. The 20 miler I did last Sunday was 13 at PMP+25 seconds, then 7 at PMP. This was 2 weeks out from my goal race, and it felt very relaxed and easy.

Krusty_Clown

RunForestRun wrote: »

I wouldn't put myself and Krusty in the same bracket at all. He's ran marathons much faster than me. I suppose I've learnt a lot from having gone for 2:55 marathons and missing the target, and ran one very good safe race at 2:58. My three near misses with 3 hours taught me as much as my actual sub-3. However, Krusty is definitely the superior authority in this thread, no question. If you want, you can just send me the 29.99 as a prepayment on the book, but there's no refunds in the event of it not going to print.

I dunno about that. You learn more from aiming for something, missing the mark and then succeeding, than if you just breezed through it in your first attempt. Thankfully, I have my own list of unsuccessful 2:42 attempts to provide those life lessons. Unlike you, I never learned from them though.

The plan I'm following at the moment though (Jack Daniels Plan A) has by comparison, a significantly high proportion of easy miles (MP+18% in my case), with two session a week. It'll be interesting to see how it works out in a few weeks time.

ThePiedPiper

If 18% is easy, then I think it's fine Krusty. I don't agree with the idea of doing easy pace at 8:30 a mile if you're planning on a sub-3 marathon. It just strikes me as too slow. I think the optimum is between 7:45 and 7:59; slow enough that it's a recovery run, but not just shuffling around either.

iancairns

RunForestRun wrote: »

In a way, this makes sense, but it wouldn't be a good race strategy. By the time you get to the marathon, if you run 6:50 for the first 20 miles, you should still feel fresh. At that point, the last 6 should be hard work of course, but not a complete nightmare.

However, if you're considering doing the first 20 miles at 6:40 pace and then crusing in, I would think it risky. My first 2 miles in DCM 2011 were 6:29 and 6:28. It felt fine, only 10 seconds quicker than goal pace. However, it well and truely bit me in the ass at 19 miles.

MP+20 seconds should feel very, very comfortable on long runs in the next couple of weeks. The 20 miler I did last Sunday was 13 at PMP+25 seconds, then 7 at PMP. This was 2 weeks out from my goal race, and it felt very relaxed and easy.

I wish i could do 20+miles 6:40pace!

My actually goal is to break 3hrs 30mins.

I did the Half Marathon in 1hr34mins54secs, at 7min8sec miles and did the 20miles on Saturday at 8min miles but felt i should have gone quicker like 7:40 per mile?

So plan is to get me to 20miles mark quicker after hill and then struggle home last 6 miles at 9min miles which i probably what i'd be doing anyway if i'd done first 20miles in 8mins miles!

ThePiedPiper

Honestly, I don't think this is a good strategy. I went from doing solid 6-35-6:40s in DCM 2011 up until 18 miles to dropping back to 8:30s in miles 21-26. I was losing over a minute and a half a mile. If you go with this strategy, you could be doing 10 minute miles towards the end of the race. Feeling bad in a marathon is not inevitable.

I believe that for every 10 seconds a mile you go too fast in the first 20 miles, you lose about a minute a mile in the last 6. On the other hand, if you hold back by 5 seconds a mile even from your target pace, you'll finish like an absolute trooper. My last 3 miles in my fastest marathon were 6:34, 6:31, 6:10. Theres no better feeling than banging out fast miles at the end of a marathon, passing loads of people and feeling strong. Believe me, I've done it every way, and conservative running early on is the key to a good race.
But, if you're absolutely determined to go out fast and positive split, then aim to do the first half in 1:43 or 7:50 pace. If you keep to this, you could still end up running negative splits and do a 3:22-3:25 marathon.

iancairns

RunForestRun wrote: »

Honestly, I don't think this is a good strategy. I went from doing solid 6-35-6:40s in DCM 2011 up until 18 miles to dropping back to 8:30s in miles 21-26. I was losing over a minute and a half a mile. If you go with this strategy, you could be doing 10 minute miles towards the end of the race. Feeling bad in a marathon is not inevitable.

I believe that for every 10 seconds a mile you go too fast in the first 20 miles, you lose about a minute a mile in the last 6. On the other hand, if you hold back by 5 seconds a mile even from your target pace, you'll finish like an absolute trooper. My last 3 miles in my fastest marathon were 6:34, 6:31, 6:10. Theres no better feeling than banging out fast miles at the end of a marathon, passing loads of people and feeling strong. Believe me, I've done it every way, and conservative running early on is the key to a good race.
But, if you're absolutely determined to go out fast and positive split, then aim to do the first half in 1:43 or 7:50 pace. If you keep to this, you could still end up running negative splits and do a 3:22-3:25 marathon.

Hi ya,
I was just thinking of it because like i was saying it was my ankle and legs that started to hurt at mile 20 regardless of time.

Other day when i did first 13miles in 8 min miles i felt i had a lot more left in bag and did next 7 miles at about 7:30 min miles and actually felt better rhythm?

I'm just thinking if i'm gonna struggle either way getting to mile 20 then i'd rather get to that pint quicker giving me more time to struggle home.

You think if i take more time starting out, i will find last 6 miles easier on ankle and lower legs?

menoscemo

iancairns wrote: »

Hi ya,
I was just thinking of it because like i was saying it was my ankle and legs that started to hurt at mile 20 regardless of time.

Other day when i did first 13miles in 8 min miles i felt i had a lot more left in bag and did next 7 miles at about 7:30 min miles and actually felt better rhythm?

I'm just thinking if i'm gonna struggle either way getting to mile 20 then i'd rather get to that pint quicker giving me more time to struggle home.

You think if i take more time starting out, i will find last 6 miles easier on ankle and lower legs?

Seriously 3:30 really should not be a problem for you. Hardly anyone on here would ever run a 20 mile training run at faster than Marathon pace. In Fact that run suggests that 3:30 is very soft.

All the same if your target is simply to beat 3;30 (and not gfo any faster) the best and safest way is to go with the 3:30 pacers and pick it up from mile 20. Pacing in reverse is not the way to do it.

ThePiedPiper

Ian, as Meno said, it depends on what your goal is. That 20 mile run you did is exactly what somebody targeting 3:15-3:20 would be doing. If you weren't wrecked after it, then yes, the 3:30 is probably a soft target.
If your goal is to run 3:29, the best way to do it is with the pacers and even splits.
If your goal is to run the best marathon you can, then it looks like you might be capable of a 3:20. If that is the case, do your 7:40 pace, but don't set yourself up to slow down at 20 miles.

If you really feel that 3:30 is the limit of what you can run in a marathon, that training run is too fast. I've done 20 mile training runs faster than sub-3 pace in the past, with absolutely no benefit to them. I wouldn't dream of doing it these days.