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The Sub 3 Support Thread

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    #452
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    EauRouge79 wrote: »
    Im just looking for you all to tell me ill be fine! :rolleyes:
    Sure you'll be grand. Not sure about the the sub-3 though. ;)
    What kind of marathon-pace running have you been doing?


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    #453
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    EauRouge79 wrote: »

    Im just looking for you all to tell me ill be fine! :rolleyes:

    You'll be fine. ;)

    Naw, in all seriousness, your times from your recent races over 5k and 5 mile tell far more about where you are now than the progression. How are you feeling on those 20 mile runs?

    On my 20 miler on Saturday, my coach sped up our pace to 6:29-6:32 for miles 14-16. It was tough going but I hung in there, and kept up the PMP miles until 18, exactly as planned. Handling this type of pace on the hard stretches of LSRs, along with my recent half and shorter distance races, fills me with confidence. My last four marathons read 3:05, 2:58, 3:07, 3:22, but I know I'm in the same sort of shape that yielded 2:58. The 3:22 is irrelevant, as are your 3:05 and 3:06.

    Two out of my four failed sub 3 marathons were actually failed 2:55s. Come race day, don't make the mistake of doing the first half in 1:27 or 1:28. It can seem like this is easy, but it'll come back to bite you in the ass. Patience and restraint will take you under 3.


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    #454
    runsir
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭runsir


    Long time lurker on the board. Some great advice all round here. Going to have a crack at 3 myself this year hopefully.

    Died of death last year in my first marathon in Dublin..ended up in 3.22, totally underestimated it after doing a 1.24 half a few weeks before.

    Hope to go close this year, managed a 1.19.35 half back in May. Have four 21 milers this year done, hope to do a couple more with kileyusual who posts in the training log section.

    Did a 18 miler on Saturday gone, first 12 miles at 7.20 pace on some serious hilly backroads in Mayo and then the last 6 at 6.30, felt fine.

    10KM race in Ballina this Sunday, will be nice to stretch the legs over a short distance!


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    #455
    EauRouge79
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭EauRouge79


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Sure you'll be grand. Not sure about the the sub-3 though. ;)
    What kind of marathon-pace running have you been doing?

    Did 10 miles at 6:45pace a few weeks back.
    Had planned to run the Cork half at race pace yesterday and that would have finished off my training plan given me the confidence. Had a small calf tear from the previous week so backed out of that run and all seems ok now. Will probably run 12 miles myself at marathon pace this Wednesday and then have a proper 2.5 week taper.
    Thanks
    RunForestRun wrote: »
    You'll be fine. ;)

    Naw, in all seriousness, your times from your recent races over 5k and 5 mile tell far more about where you are now than the progression. How are you feeling on those 20 mile runs?

    On my 20 miler on Saturday, my coach sped up our pace to 6:29-6:32 for miles 14-16. It was tough going but I hung in there, and kept up the PMP miles until 18, exactly as planned. Handling this type of pace on the hard stretches of LSRs, along with my recent half and shorter distance races, fills me with confidence. My last four marathons read 3:05, 2:58, 3:07, 3:22, but I know I'm in the same sort of shape that yielded 2:58. The 3:22 is irrelevant, as are your 3:05 and 3:06.
    Patience and restraint will take you under 3.

    Need to get me a coach! Sounds like a great confidence booster to up the pace mid LSR and back it off again. Will take that onboard for future training plans.
    Have felt comfortable at 20 miles to be honest and with a bit of freshness in the legs I think I should be able to push on.
    I certainly feel that I am better runner that this time last year.
    One thing I know for sure is that until I pass 20 miles, you will not find me passing that balloon!
    Thanks


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    #456
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    One thing I have noticed is that some runners who can HM in 1:22 struggle to go sub-3 while others get there off more modest HM times (1:25-1:27). Mcmillan and Daniels calculators come with a health warning - especially when extrapolating up to predicted marathon times.

    Did my first marathon since i was 18 years old in Berlin 2011 and ran 3:14, Dublin a month later (half-heartedly) in 3:17.

    I ran 3:02 in London 2012 off a 1:28:20 HM PB four months before London and a 63:04 10M race two months before London (I was in better shape to give sub-3 a crack at the time of the 10M race than I was at London Marathon 2 months later for a variety of reasons)

    I still got a lot closer to sub-3 than others who are habitually faster than me at 5k -10m race distance. I'm also older than most of them (late 40s) - maybe that explains my relative lack of speed in shorter races

    Berlin in 3 weeks - first time I have followed a training plan (P&D). A lot more miles, a lot of them slower than before. Raced a 1:25 HM in June and ran a very comfortable 1:28 HM on Sunday (not racing - done as a PMP+ run). 38:06 in a 10k last weekend and final tuning race (also 10k) on Saturday - hoping for sub-38 on fresher tapered legs.

    All the improved prep says I can/should get there this time but as we all know it ain't that simple!!!

    Unlike EauRouge I am going to head out at 2:56-2:57 pace (thats what I've trained for). I went with pacer up to 21 miles in London but I'm as happy relying on Garmin and feel on the day. Mind you if/when I see that balloon passing me at Potsdamer Platz I'll know it's push on or fail time.


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    #457
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    EauRouge79 wrote: »
    Did 10 miles at 6:45pace a few weeks back.
    Had planned to run the Cork half at race pace yesterday and that would have finished off my training plan given me the confidence. Had a small calf tear from the previous week so backed out of that run and all seems ok now. Will probably run 12 miles myself at marathon pace this Wednesday and then have a proper 2.5 week taper.
    Thanks
    Definitely well worth getting the 12 mile PMP run done if you can, but it sounds like you are well on track.


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    #458
    EauRouge79
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭EauRouge79


    Rolex_ wrote: »

    Unlike EauRouge I am going to head out at 2:56-2:57 pace (thats what I've trained for). .

    Hey, thought we were in this together and now your just going to leave me behind......:D...Ha Ha


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    #459
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    EauRouge79 wrote: »
    Hey, thought we were in this together and now your just going to leave me behind......:D...Ha Ha

    Nah... come on off at 6.40-6.45 pace. No bother to you... and no harm having a slight cushion :cool:. We can negotiate!!:)


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    #460
    ergo
    Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭ergo


    been away from running (except the odd sociable 10k) for past 3 years - I did wonder what had happened to this thread - delighted to stumble across it here yesterday :) now looking forward to re-reading through the 30+ pages some rainy evening

    2 previous sub 3 attempts, Berlin 2009 (3:02:57) and 5 weeks later Dublin 2009 (3:01:49)

    now aiming for Dublin this year, training a bit interrupted by niggles but getting back on track - jealous of those in for Berlin this year, will be following your progress though


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    #461
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    I was going to have a crack at sub 3 this year but I’ve now missed three weeks of training due to injury, followed by a sprain ankle this weekend after I recovered.

    Should I just rejoin P&D schedule from today onwards and see how I go? Or forget the plan and follow a 7/8 week one?

    The time is probably gone out the window but given I’ve paid up and no other races planned. Perhaps do a HM time trial soon and see where I end up?


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    #462
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    nerraw1111 wrote: »
    I was going to have a crack at sub 3 this year but I’ve now missed three weeks of training due to injury, followed by a sprain ankle this weekend after I recovered.

    Should I just rejoin P&D schedule from today onwards and see how I go? Or forget the plan and follow a 7/8 week one?

    The time is probably gone out the window but given I’ve paid up and no other races planned. Perhaps do a HM time trial soon and see where I end up?

    Hi nerraw, bad luck on the injury. What base (PBs etc) did you start the P&D programme from? I presume it's DCM you were training for?


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    #463
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    That’s the trouble, very few road race pbs to speak of. Mostly trail/hill races. I ran 18.30 5km about a year ago, and 29.59 five mile PB in Feb.

    I reckon I’m faster than that now and have seen hill running times improved. I have been training for a sub 3 attempt. Last marathon pace run I did was 26km with the last 16km at 4.07 pace, that was the end of July. Last proper marathon training was 11th August with a 30km LSR. Done Gaelforce in between before getting crocked on Aug 18.

    Injury was stretching related etc rather than anything overly serious.


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    #464
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    nerraw1111 wrote: »
    That’s the trouble, very few road race pbs to speak of. Mostly trail/hill races. I ran 18.30 5km about a year ago, and 29.59 five mile PB in Feb.

    I reckon I’m faster than that now and have seen hill running times improved. I have been training for a sub 3 attempt. Last marathon pace run I did was 26km with the last 16km at 4.07 pace, that was the end of July. Last proper marathon training was 11th August with a 30km LSR. Done Gaelforce in between before getting crocked on Aug 18.

    Injury was stretching related etc rather than anything overly serious.

    I was out for two or three weeks myself after over stretching a muscle as well. I found that I got back on form very quickly. You have 5/6 weeks to get in some quality training before you taper for DCM. I reckon you should train with the sub 3 still as your goal. You know what kind of training you need to get in for the attempt so just adapt your training to ease yourself back in to it over the next week or so.
    Come to a week or two from the marathon, you'll have a good idea if you're in the right shape to give it a go. If you're not quite back on form, you can adjust your goal then. Just my two cents.


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    #465
    Dutchie
    Registered Users Posts: 364 ✭✭Dutchie


    nerraw1111 wrote: »

    Injury was stretching related etc rather than anything overly serious.

    Not being smart, but how do you injure yourself stretching? Is it more likely to happen when your muscles are 'cold'. The closest I've come to being injured occurred at 6 this morning after nearly being run down by a jeep on a blind bend.

    B*****d slowed me down to 6.05 pace ;)


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    #466
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    Ah no. Ha! Injury was from not stretching. Let the legs/hips get too tight. Lack of general maintenance really.


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    #467
    EauRouge79
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭EauRouge79


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Definitely well worth getting the 12 mile PMP run done if you can, but it sounds like you are well on track.

    Got this done at 6:30 this morning so well chuffed with myself.
    1.5m warm up.
    12m at 6:38 avg
    1m cool down.
    All done on grass so as not aggrevate the calf.

    Was hard going but thats down to a 15hr days work yesterday and only 5 hours sleep. Shattered now and could snooze on my desk very easily!

    Rolex_ wrote: »
    Nah... come on off at 6.40-6.45 pace. No bother to you... and no harm having a slight cushion :cool:. We can negotiate!!:)

    Im easily led but not sure about this. I will delighted with anything sub3. Having not been there before I just want to get it done and dont want to push my luck. I think ill try to stick to the balloon to 20miles and re-assess it all at that stage.
    Im aiming to go from 3:05 to 2:59 and your starting from 3:02.
    You looked as fresh as a daisy after the half on Sunday and I think that you will be just fine at the 6:40pace.

    Im sure will chat again beforehand.


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    #468
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    EauRouge79 wrote: »

    Im easily led but not sure about this. I will delighted with anything sub3. Having not been there before I just want to get it done and dont want to push my luck. I think ill try to stick to the balloon to 20miles and re-assess it all at that stage.
    Im aiming to go from 3:05 to 2:59 and your starting from 3:02.
    You looked as fresh as a daisy after the half on Sunday and I think that you will be just fine at the 6:40pace.

    Im sure will chat again beforehand.

    Great to hear you nailed that session with no apparent ill effects. LSR (17m) on grass on Sunday with others if you are interested.

    As for Berlin.. I just think I am going to look for a 2 minute cushion coming to 20M, no more than that. Offered 2:59:59 right now, I'd bite your hand off!


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    #469
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Well done EauRouge79. If you can get that done:
    Mid week
    Early in the morning
    On grass
    Significantly faster than sub-3 pace
    Then sub-3 should be no bother to you. You just need to stay lucky on the day, and avoid any pitfalls.


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    #470
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    EauRouge79 wrote: »
    Got this done at 6:30 this morning so well chuffed with myself.
    1.5m warm up.
    12m at 6:38 avg
    1m cool down.
    All done on grass so as not aggrevate the calf.

    Was hard going but thats down to a 15hr days work yesterday and only 5 hours sleep. Shattered now and could snooze on my desk very easily!

    That's a great session to get in before the marathon. Hope to get something similar done myself before Dublin. Best of luck in Berlin. It shouldn't be a bother to you. Workwise, some carefully planned power naps in the jacks should help you to get through the day. A full roll of toilet paper can work well as an improvised pillow.


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    #471
    EauRouge79
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭EauRouge79


    Rolex_ wrote: »
    Great to hear you nailed that session with no apparent ill effects. LSR (17m) on grass on Sunday with others if you are interested.

    Will consider that run alright. Is it a club run?
    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    . You just need to stay lucky on the day, and avoid any pitfalls.

    Thanks Krusty, good to get your thoughts on boards. This really is a good support thread for needy runners like myself :D
    KielyUnusual wrote: »
    . Workwise, some carefully planned power naps in the jacks should help you to get through the day. A full roll of toilet paper can work well as an improvised pillow.

    Super suggestion! Think ill just create a call to a client for about 4pm and have a quick nap in the car out the back!


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    #472
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    EauRouge79 wrote: »
    Will consider that run alright. Is it a club run?

    It is indeed, but all welcome. Should be 5 or 6 doing that pace, not all club members either. Most of them running DCM a month later and also targetting sub-3


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    #473
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    I reached a milestone this afternoon, plodded 13 miles on sore legs thereby completing the last midweek Medium-Long run prescribed by the P&D 18 week programme which I have followed reasonably faithfully allowing for the demands of work, family and life in general.

    Others have spoken of how they dread intervals or tempo runs etc. I gotta say I have quite enjoyed most of those and have certainly got positive reiforcement from finding them easier as the programme went on.

    Like I say what's been hardest has been motivating myself and turning out on Wednesdays for 12-15 miles (AT ANY PACE!) often on sore legs having run long on the Sunday and typically having done a fast session at the track on Tuesday as prescribed.

    Berlin only 2 1/2 weeks away so taper just started. Hopefully those midweek long runs will stand to me!!


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    #474
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Rolex_ wrote: »
    Berlin only 2 1/2 weeks away so taper just started. Hopefully those midweek long runs will stand to me!!
    Have you done the 3 x 1mile @5k pace? Always a solid confidence booster (but a challenging run). Isn't there also a 8k-10k race two weeks out?


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    #475
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Have you done the 3 x 1mile @5k pace? Always a solid confidence booster (but a challenging run). Isn't there also a 8k-10k race two weeks out?

    There is indeed. I'm heading to Clare to do a 10k on Saturday (15 days before Berlin). I'll do a 5M recovery tomorrow and take Friday off. P&D advises doing the tuning races at full tilit so I'll do as advised - just slightly wary of injury - any thoughts? (I'm conscious training plans are often aimed at 30-35 year olds rather than ould fellas like me!)

    As for the 3 x 1 mile... that comes next week and looking forward to it. I did 5 x 1200 @5:45/mile last week which is a little faster than my 5k PB - something I have seen you recommend. It felt fine really and I could have done another couple of reps at the same pace if I had to...

    Thanks for the feedback.


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    #476
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Rolex_ wrote: »
    There is indeed. I'm heading to Clare to do a 10k on Saturday (15 days before Berlin). I'll do a 5M recovery tomorrow and take Friday off. P&D advises doing the tuning races at full tilit so I'll do as advised - just slightly wary of injury - any thoughts? (I'm conscious training plans are often aimed at 30-35 year olds rather than ould fellas like me!)
    I always gave the tune-up races a decent lash. Most of my 10k and 5k improvements have come on the back of marathon training, so I think I have nearly always PB'ed in these races. But, on the other hand, the goal is the marathon, not the 10k, so if you don't PB it's no big deal. It's just a means to an end. If you feel the injury risk is significant, then you should probably pull-back and not give it 100%.
    Rolex_ wrote: »
    As for the 3 x 1 mile... that comes next week and looking forward to it. I did 5 x 1200 @5:45/mile last week which is a little faster than my 5k PB - something I have seen you recommend. It felt fine really and I could have done another couple of reps at the same pace if I had to...
    I never recommended it. It should always be done at current 5k pace (or best estimate, if you haven't run one recently). Having said that, I don't practice what I (or more specifically P&D!) preaches, and have always done these at the equivalent Macmillan 5k pace of my marathon goal. This is not the right thing to do (just so we're clear). The risk of injury is greater and the potential impact on other workouts is greater. But if you've done the 1200s at 5:45/mile, you might as well stick it out for the 1,600s, or you might not get the same benefit (having run all of the other intervals too fast. :)).


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    #477
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    I always gave the tune-up races a decent lash. Most of my 10k and 5k improvements have come on the back of marathon training, so I think I have nearly always PB'ed in these races. But, on the other hand, the goal is the marathon, not the 10k, so if you don't PB it's no big deal. It's just a means to an end. If you feel the injury risk is significant, then you should probably pull-back and not give it 100%.


    I never recommended it. It should always be done at current 5k pace (or best estimate, if you haven't run one recently). Having said that, I don't practice what I (or more specifically P&D!) preaches, and have always done these at the equivalent Macmillan 5k pace of my marathon goal. This is not the right thing to do (just so we're clear). The risk of injury is greater and the potential impact on other workouts is greater. But if you've done the 1200s at 5:45/mile, you might as well stick it out for the 1,600s, or you might not get the same benefit (having run all of the other intervals too fast. :)).

    Yeah I get you :). PB for 5k of 18:26 at the start of the Summer (5:57/mile - McMillan marathon prediction 2:59). I've done the P&D programme based on a target of 2:56 - but if the man upstairs wants to offer me a 2:59 I'll take it thank you very much. I'm confident I could run sub-18 for 5k on fresh legs now anyway so I don't think I've overdone the VO2 max sessions too much.

    As for the 10k on Saturday, I raced 10k last week and ran 38:06 (McMillan 2.58:xx) with no taper. I'll give it a lash at the weekend but like you say I won't be too hung up on the result (13 x 6:42 PMP run in Cork HM last Sunday still in my legs). Longstanding achilles injury niggling tonight so I may end up wimping out and playing safe anyway.


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    #478
    Dutchie
    Registered Users Posts: 364 ✭✭Dutchie


    Finished the Phoenix park half this morning in 1.21.21. Happy enough, knocked over 3 mins off PB.
    I was banging out steady 6's until mile 8. Then I got really bad cramp in my sternum and had to stop. Lost 30 seconds and never really regained the same pace. Anyone any advice as to what caused this? I was really well hydrated and fuelled.

    I hope everyone achieved/exceeded their goals.


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    #479
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    Dutchie wrote: »
    Finished the Phoenix park half this morning in 1.21.21. Happy enough, knocked over 3 mins off PB.
    I was banging out steady 6's until mile 8. Then I got really bad cramp in my sternum and had to stop. Lost 30 seconds and never really regained the same pace. Anyone any advice as to what caused this? I was really well hydrated and fuelled.

    I hope everyone achieved/exceeded their goals.

    Great time... and a 3 minute PB despite the stitch! Maybe you just pushed a little hard early on?
    Had a 37:57 PB for 10k this morning myself- a bit disappointed but I travelled expecting a flat course... instead of which the last 2 miles climbed constantly to the finish almost:confused:. Last tuning race before Berlin in the bag TG


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    #480
    EauRouge79
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭EauRouge79


    Rolex_ wrote: »
    Great time... and a 3 minute PB despite the stitch! Maybe you just pushed a little hard early on?
    Had a 37:57 PB for 10k this morning myself- a bit disappointed but I travelled expecting a flat course... instead of which the last 2 miles climbed constantly to the finish almost:confused:. Last tuning race before Berlin in the bag TG

    Good man.
    I headed for the Kinsale for the tower 10k....jaysus....that was some workout! Without exageration there is about 1k of flat running. The rest is either straight uphill or downhill. Thought my lungs were about the burst.
    Most of the participants were walkers, if someone ran it as their 1st 10k it will definately be their last!
    Well organised but a monster.


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    #481
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Hey lads,

    I didn't think I'd be posting in this thread this year but a few people have started to convince me I might be able to pull it off in the DCM. The only things is, it's my first marathon but should that stop me? I'm thinking no it probably shouldn't.

    I've been running just under 2 years now, and I've made significant gains in the last few months. I'm not in a club but I've been working off a sub 3:15 plan for the last 10 weeks and had a good strong base fitness before that. The training has gone better than expected and I'm feeling stronger and more confident every week. Last week my target was a sub 3:10 based on how I was feeling in training and my PMP runs midweek (~7:10 pace) were feeling very comfortable. I had started ramping up my LSR's before the plan started so I was up to a 22.5m last week and was feeling really good during it.

    I did the half on Saturday and to my surprise pulled an 84:49 out of the bag, exceeding my target of an 86:30, which would have been on track for a comfortable sub 3:10. This new half time based on McMillan's calculator suggests I can go sub 3. It was a real confidence booster and I'm strongly considering just going for it now, I know the work will have to be put in and I'm ok with that, I'm enjoying the training and feel I can push more. I don't think the fact it's my first should really deter me, If I feel it's in me I want to go for it but on the other hand I don't want to jeopardise not finishing my first marathon.

    What are other's opinions/experience on this? Stick to my current plan and get the sub 3:10 time, then work on it, or just go for it? I'm aware my plan needs to be adjusted and the intensity adjusted if I were to plan for a sub 3. Thoughts welcome :)


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