Swine Flu Vaccination + general swine flu chat thread

guest20009

Hi all, I'm just a bit bothered so if you don't mind can i run this past ye? My husband and my 2 babies ( under 2) all got the celvapan vaccine the 2nd week dec. I didn't get it at that time as i was pregnant and was waiting till i got to the 14 weeks stage. Now i'm 15 weeks and i wanted to get the girls their second shot and me my first one (of the celvapan) as we are also going on hols in 2 weeks. we're in limerick. So first of all there is no number for ringing the hse building there i eventuall got one for an unrelated person in the same building who passed on messsages for me. THe message i got back was that no one was getting the celvapan i would have to get the other one. Also that the girls wouldn't be called for their shots for another few weeks. RAng the HSE line, someone will call you.......got a call from a doc in limerick who basically said that only severe severe egg allergy people are getting celvapan, stocks were very very low, it wasn't as good as the pandermix one anyway!!! so after more calls i still can't get an answer on when my girls might get their second shot, i'm bothered because i really wanted to get the celvanpan one. Has anyone had a similar experience? WHats going on?

locum-motion

murfbrowne wrote: »

just wondering how much per vaccine are gps getting, it struck me that they are pushing it a little too much.

Less than half of the economic cost to them of providing the service, according to my GP (who's also a friend). And only about 1/4 (I can't remember exactly what proportion) of what they get for the seasonal flu vaccine.

That's right, they're effectively losing money (because they still have bills to pay) but yet they're still 'pushing' it, as you say.
Could it be because they believe it's in the public's interest?
Nah, it couldn't, could it? Could it? Nah, no way! (Is it obvious yet that I'm being sarcastic)

zapata

smccarrick wrote: »

A tenner a go.
Its far from a money spinner.......

locum-motion wrote: »

Less than half of the economic cost to them of providing the service, according to my GP (who's also a friend). And only about 1/4 (I can't remember exactly what proportion) of what they get for the seasonal flu vaccine.

That's right, they're effectively losing money (because they still have bills to pay) but yet they're still 'pushing' it, as you say.
Could it be because they believe it's in the public's interest?
Nah, it couldn't, could it? Could it? Nah, no way! (Is it obvious yet that I'm being sarcastic)

The 'poor' doctors. Let’s pass a hat around.
Surely the vaccine could not take more than 5 minutes to give – that’s pocket money. A lot of doctors choose their profession for the money - not for the vocation. There's no money to be made in the cure but there is lots to be made in the treatment. Pharmaceutical Companies are multi billion dollar\euro businesses. Rant over.

Dr Galen

zapata wrote: »

The 'poor' doctors. Let’s pass a hat around.
Surely the vaccine could not take more than 5 minutes to give – that’s pocket money. A lot of doctors choose their profession for the money - not for the vocation.

i'm not going to drag this thread OT by replying to this sort of thing. If this is what you really believe, I'm not sure we'll be able to say anything to sway you. If you want to continue the discussion, please feel free to start a new thread, otherwise keep it on topic.

Cheers

MM

Conor108

MOD EDIT: looking for medical advice

sam34

conor we cant answer those questions here.

please speak to your gp

donaghs

So what happened to Swine Flu? There were some very scary and authoritative sounding predictions made on this forum. Not many people in my workplace (of 100s) got it. And some of those who claimed to have had it seemed very doubtful (e.g. they weren't tested for it, and anyway couldn't tell the difference between a bad cold and seasonal flu).

I guess we should be lucky so few people died from it?

The_Conductor

donaghs wrote: »

So what happened to Swine Flu? There were some very scary and authoritative sounding predictions made on this forum. Not many people in my workplace (of 100s) got it. And some of those who claimed to have had it seemed very doubtful (e.g. they weren't tested for it, and anyway couldn't tell the difference between a bad cold and seasonal flu).

I guess we should be lucky so few people died from it?

When you consider that almost as many people died in Northern Ireland as did in the Republic- yes, we were lucky, very very lucky. We did get to learn from other countries experiences, and continue to exercise the degree of vigilance that has helped thus far. We did nonetheless have a death of a pregnant woman with no underlying medical conditions, along with 4 others with no underlying conditions (almost 80% of cases had pre-existing conditions/disorders). We also got lucky with the particular strain which predominated here. That said- Australia has a second wave ongoing at the moment- and there are parts of the US (think San Antonio in Texas for example) which are on official watch lists- so we can't afford to become complacent.

I'm relieved I got the vaccine when I was offered it- and were I in the same position again, wouldn't think twice about doing my damndest to get it again at the earliest possible opportunity.

Btw- two of my sisters spent considerable lengths of time in hospital with Swine Flu- its something I'd go to considerable lengths to make sure didn't happen to me.

Raiser

zapata wrote: »

The 'poor' doctors. Let’s pass a hat around.
Surely the vaccine could not take more than 5 minutes to give – that’s pocket money. A lot of doctors choose their profession for the money - not for the vocation. There's no money to be made in the cure but there is lots to be made in the treatment. Pharmaceutical Companies are multi billion dollar\euro businesses. Rant over.

While the above sentiment isn't going to get a lot of support around here.....<SNIP>

Mod Edit

Its not going to get much support on this thread anyway, and I've already outlined the reasons why Raiser. You've been on boards long enough to understand how the Moderator system works.

I said it to others, if you want to start a thread, to discuss such issues, go right ahead. I would suggest that the reason why we have yet to see such a thread is because the posters concerned know rightly that they are doing nothing more than ranting. Come back to us with some facts and you'll get a fair hearing, come here to have a moan or to make stuff up and you won't.


Cheers

MM

Ann22

My family and me had the vaccine today in the Dundalk walk in clinic. We had no appointment. We were givin an info leaflet on Pandremix to read before we went in.
I went in first and asked was Calvepan available. The nurse said we could have it if we wanted but we had to wait for a few mins 'til the nurse administering it was available. I just took a chance on asking for it, I assumed they were just using Pandremix today.
She said Calvepan was unlikely to cause side effects. No sore arms or anything so far.

anotherlostie

I got mine (Pandemrix) today, and so far no ill effects other than knowing 'something' happened to my arm.

As someone that works in the pharma business, I'm amazed Baxter were allowed called the vaccine Celvapan, as it looks awfully like Calvepen, a penicillin still on the market, when written down. OK, so a mix up between an antibiotic tablet and a flu vaccine is highly unlikely but in the era of risk assessment/ reduction, I was surprised.

locum-motion

anotherlostie wrote: »

... I'm amazed Baxter were allowed called the vaccine Celvapan, as it looks awfully like Calvepen, a penicillin still on the market, when written down. OK, so a mix up between an antibiotic tablet and a flu vaccine is highly unlikely but in the era of risk assessment/ reduction, I was surprised.

Ah, good ould SALADs, where would we be without them?

(For the uninitiated, SALAD stands for Sound Alike Look Alike Drugs, and as lostie said, it's a source of concern in the biz)

whatawaster

Does anyone know if it's yet possible for someone with no underlying conditions (male, 24) to get the vaccine anywhere yet?

locum-motion

whatawaster wrote: »

Does anyone know if it's yet possible for someone with no underlying conditions (male, 24) to get the vaccine anywhere yet?

I was fairly sure that I'd heard something about the general public being offered the vaccine now, but when I looked at the HSE website (see below), there was no mention of it. Maybe they're just a little slow about updating the website (wouldn't surprise me). Or maybe I was wrong.
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/swineflu/vaccine/

Raiser

mod edit:


off topic, questioning mod decisions in-thread

sam34

raiser,

there is a policy on boards for how you deal with mod decisions with which you disagree

you PM the mod in question, or the cmod

if youre not happy after that, you take it to helpdesk

you do not derail a thread by complaining

me.ie

tallaght01 wrote: »

No-one will force people to get vaccinated. The vaccine is currently being developed, but should be available soon.

The priority with the vaccine is not that it will protect all the people who get the vaccine from nasty illness. Most healthy people will have a mild form of the disease. So, they will carry on their normal day to day business. But you will be contagious for 6-7 days.

So, you'll be in contact with people, like your elderly parents or grandparents, your pregnant sister, or your newborn niece.

It's these people who are at very high risk from swine flu.

So, the reason that we're trying to stop people getting swine flu is to stop them giving it to vulnerable people.

I got the vaccine yesterday, im fourteen yrs old and today my arm feels very painful, achy and heavy. I have a bad headache, feel irritable, have a small rash i also feel exhausted and overnight i developed a good few spots on my face ( i usually have clear skin. I am wondering if any of these are related side effects to the vaccine.

Dr Galen

we can't advise you one way or the other I'm afraid.

When you got the vaccine did you receive any info on what to look out for etc? If your at all concerned then you should speak with a doctor, prob your GP is best.

cormicar

mod edit:

conspiracy theory mixed in with unfounded speculation

Dave!

cormicar you're using fallacious reasoning to assume that the vaccine caused your wife's bleeding. Bleeding can be caused by lots of things, and to assume it's because she got the vaccine is completely unfounded. People like Jenny McCarthy use the same reasoning to link vaccines with autism -- because the child's autism manifested itself after it recieved its vaccinations, they must have caused it ! -- when in reality we know vaccines have nothing to do with autism.

cormicar

Dave! wrote: »

cormicar you're using fallacious reasoning to assume that the vaccine caused your wife's bleeding. Bleeding can be caused by lots of things, and to assume it's because she got the vaccine is completely unfounded. People like Jenny McCarthy use the same reasoning to link vaccines with autism -- because the child's autism manifested itself after it recieved its vaccinations, they must have caused it ! -- when in reality we know vaccines have nothing to do with autism.

It's just my opinion Dave. Please tell which part of my post was false.

Dave!

I know it's your opinion mate, but it's idle speculation. Influenza vaccines are produced every year for the seasonal flu and given to thousands with very few adverse reactions. Swine flu is just another strain of influenza, the vaccines are made the same way and have the same safety profile.

When making a seasonal flu vaccine, the scientists have to try to predict what the flu is gonna look like that season (because it changes every year) and give patients the best prediction. Swine flu wasn't anticipated, that's why it caused such alarm. This means that when they got around to making the swine flu vaccine, they weren't making predictions -- they knew exactly what the strain was, because they had it in the lab ! So the swine flu vaccine is probably going to be more effective than the seasonal flu vaccine.

I hope I explained that okay ! Vaccines are known prevantatives that have been around for over 50 years.

Clinical trials were also run prior to releasing the H1N1 vaccine, and they showed that it has a similar safety profile to seasonal flu vaccines.

And anyway, I'm not aware of any widespread adverse reactions to the vaccine, are you?

I can understand people being reluctant to inject anything into their baby or child, but really don't you think it's best to go with what the best science points towards? And that is that swine flu is a risk to your wife and child; vaccines are not.

locum-motion

cormicar wrote: »

It's just my opinion Dave. Please tell which part of my post was false.

He didn't say any part of your post was false.
He said you were using fallacious reasoning.
And, in my opinion, he was right.

cormicar

locum-motion wrote: »

He didn't say any part of your post was false.
He said you were using fallacious reasoning.
And, in my opinion, he was right.

My wife is 24 weeks pregnant and just recently got the Celvaplan vaccine to help prevent infection from the swine flu virus. In MY opinion this vaccine has not been fully tested and the real side effects are not yet fully known. 2 days after she received the vaccine she had bleeding. This may or may not have been caused by the vaccine. Does anyone know if any testing of the Celvapan vaccine has been carried out in Ireland?

Dr Galen

ok

I see what you've done there Cormicar

I have some questions for you, which might help clear things up.

1) Why do you think that the vaccine was not tested sufficiently?
2) What side effects do you think are not understood and do you have basis to link the vaccine to any side effects?
3) The vaccine has been tested globally, why does the testing of the vaccine in Ireland matter to you? and how does the actual place where it has been tested colour your opinion?
4) How much do you understand about how the normal flu vaccine is produced?

cormicar

To understand the full effects of Celvapan we should be aware of whats in it. The ingredients are as follows

Active ingredient (assume this is bird/pig/human engineered flu virus, which is listed as whole cell virus),vero cell line (diseased monkey tissue that the virus was grown on which will be present in the vaccine in trace amounts), haemmaglutinin, tween 80 (this is polysorbate 80), sodium chloride, tris (trometamol), water.

HAEMMAGLUTININ - This causes red blood cells to clump together.
Tween 80 is a stabilizer that is a known infertility agent. Linked to infertility in male painters and decorators due to it being in some paints. Used by the population council of WHO in developing pregnancy vaccines since the 1960's.
Sodium Chloride is refined table salt which is bad for your heart and clogs up your arteries. It is particularly bad for children as they can't take as much salt as adults.
Tris is a buffer which is also an anti-inflammatory drug that has numerous side-effects including asthma and heart attack.

Now guys, if you still want to inject yourself with that, be my guest. I for one am not going to.

Dave!

cormicar wrote: »

To understand the full effects of Celvapan we should be aware of whats in it.

I don't think that's necessarily true, since we can carry out clinical trials without knowing what's in the product. But how and ever....


Active ingredient (assume this is bird/pig/human engineered flu virus, which is listed as whole cell virus)
Great

vero cell line (diseased monkey tissue that the virus was grown on which will be present in the vaccine in trace amounts),
This line has been used for vaccines since the 60's with no problems. If there's only trace amounts that cause no problems, then what's your concern?

haemmaglutinin,
So what?

tween 80 (this is polysorbate 80),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysorbate_80#Health_testing

In Europe and America people eat about 0.1 grammes of polysorbate 80 in foods per day.[8] Influenza vaccines contain 0.000025g of polysorbate 80 per dose.[7]

In general, polysorbate 80 is safe and well-tolerated, although a small number of people are allergic to this substance.[9] Rats fed with diets containing up to 5% polysorbate 80 by volume showed no toxic effects.[10] Polysorbate 80 is not carcinogenic.[11] A 1956 study saw no effect on reproduction in rats at up to 5% of their diet being polysorbate 80, although reproduction decreased at 20% of the diet.[12] A 1993 study raised concerns that polysorbate 80 might decrease fertility in rats.[13] A 1997 study looked at the effect of consuming three doses of 5 g/kg/day on the sex organs of female rats and saw no abnormal changes, this is equivalent to a 70 kg person consuming about 350 g per day for three days.[14] A 2008 study concluded that there was observable adverse effects at doses of up to 1.85 ml/kgbw/day, which is equivalent to a 70 kg person consuming about 140 g of this substance per day for 21 days. However, administration of 16.783 ml/kg bw/day to pregnant rats lowered body weight in male and female offspring.[8] This is equivalent to a person consuming about 1.3 kilograms of polysorbate 80 every day for 21 days.


sodium chloride,
water.
:eek: You mean -- SALINE SOLUTION?! :eek:
ie. the stuff they feed you intravenously when in hospital to prevent dehydration?


tris (trometamol),
http://www.curehunter.com/public/keywordSummaryD014325.do

An organic amine proton acceptor. It is used in the synthesis of surface-active agents and pharmaceuticals; as an emulsifying agent for cosmetic creams and lotions, mineral oil and paraffin wax emulsions, as a biological buffer, and used as an alkalizer. (From Merck, 11th ed; Martindale, The Extra Pharmacopoeia, 30th ed, p1424)

You had better tell your wife about what she's rubbing onto her skin ! :eek:


Have you ever taken a panadol for a headache? You better not look at those ingredients, cos they're also full of scary words !

paracetamol
caffeine
acetamenophen
Starch
polyvinylpyrrolidone
potassium sorbate
purified talc
stearic acid
croscarmellose sodium
purified water
hydroxypropylmethycellulose
triacetin
carmoiscine E122

Sounds pretty scary to me

Turtwig

Just got my mercury infused shot.

ARGHHHH GOODDDDAMMMMMMMITTTT MY ARM HURTS LIKE HELLL:mad:















Nothing else symptom wise though.:D

mcduane_ie

Dave! wrote: »

cormicar you're using fallacious reasoning to assume that the vaccine caused your wife's bleeding. Bleeding can be caused by lots of things, and to assume it's because she got the vaccine is completely unfounded. People like Jenny McCarthy use the same reasoning to link vaccines with autism -- because the child's autism manifested itself after it recieved its vaccinations, they must have caused it ! -- when in reality we know vaccines have nothing to do with autism.

Hey Dave

Just wondering if you are in the medical profession or work in the area of testing new medicines/vaccines?
Regarding your comment above please explain your thoughts on how it is proved that a vaccine can cause any adverse reactions?? Clinical trials for the new swine flu vaccines Pandemrix and Celpevan are in process not complete. I do not understand what you are basing your reasoning on...

With regards to Cormicar assuming that his wifes bleeding was as a result of vaccine. I would instead encourage cormicar's wife to submit a suspected adverse reaction form online at www.imb.ie

Most people are not told to do this if they suspect a reaction to a vaccine and it is only by reporting all suspicions that we can see the proper information and then make an informed decision on whether or not we chose to have a vaccine.

If there were not any adverse reactions to vaccines then we would not be asked to sign on the dotted line and take full responsibilty when getting these vaccines.

With regards to your comment on Jenny McCathy about link to autism. You seem to accept without question what you are told from medical profession. I hope that this continues to work for you in the future. There is a lot in medicine that cannot be proved definitively and at the end of the day people can but listen to what they are told and then make their own informed decision..

Regards

mcduane_ie

Cormicar

I would encourage your wife to fill out a suspected adverse reaction form online at www.imb.ie . By the way I hope your wife is well and not overly anxious after her experience.

Regards