Mad cattle

Farmer Pudsey

Brass Tag wrote: »

Its not that unusual for some cattle to get seriously wild when their situation and surroundings change. Some individual cattle, lims in particular seem to react like this.
Buyers need to know and understand that. There may well be a bit of work and effort required to acclimatise some bought in cattle to their new surroundings and new owner / handler.
That said if course there are some lunatics which should never be brought to a mart or sold on under any circumstances! Only to Goodman!

The only thing about these cattle is that they were like lams in the mart. I have come across this before with animals that are relatively quite in mart and go off there heads a day later on farm. I am lucky enough that the rest of my cattle are bucket fed cattle. I have a SIM bullock at present and he go through Lough Erne for you.

Some farmers suspect that there are some farmers applying sedatives to some wild cattle before they are send to the mart. It similar with lads that register JEX cattle as AAX or LMX. The lad that is not signing back of cards. We should not tolorate same

LizzyOne

So this cattle dealer rang the uncle and said he knew the farmer who had sold the cattle.
Lovely quiet stock, etc. etc.
You get the idea.
Well, the uncle is a real gentleman. Quiet, easy going, the old school of nice manners.
Welllll..... When he got this phone call the uncle became furious, hit the roof.
Told the dealer in no uncertain terms about what he thought of those 'quiet' stock, and the owner of said cattle not bothering to ask how he was or even come out to see his bullocks.
Both mart and former owner would like this thing to go away.
As my hubby said last night he could have been burying his brother this week.
That's the kind of thought that would haunt anyone!!!

Farmer Pudsey

LizzyOne wrote: »

So this cattle dealer rang the uncle and said he knew the farmer who had sold the cattle.
Lovely quiet stock, etc. etc.
You get the idea.
Well, the uncle is a real gentleman. Quiet, easy going, the old school of nice manners.
Welllll..... When he got this phone call the uncle became furious, hit the roof.
Told the dealer in no uncertain terms about what he thought of those 'quiet' stock, and the owner of said cattle not bothering to ask how he was or even come out to see his bullocks.
Both mart and former owner would like this thing to go away.
As my hubby said last night he could have been burying his brother this week.
That's the kind of thought that would haunt anyone!!!

Forget about Dealer, previous owner etc. Deal with Mart manager only. If they want this to go away then apply pressure. Deal with it on a health and safety grounds. Suspected tampering with cattle before sale. Often if marts are dealing with same farmers/dealers a lot they tend to take there side over other farmers.

Muckit

Sorry op to hear about relative. Hopefully you get sorted with the mart, but if you don't l wouldn't panic. They could end up the luckiest cattle that were ever bought.

It is housing time. I presume you have a slatted shed? Are they in at present? If they are, keep giving them a shake of nuts on top of the silage. Keep the barrier between you and them. You are still getting safely up close to them. Don't be getting too excited or nervous yourself no matter what they do you don't react.

You can be a foot either way in or out of danger.

There's manys the lad that has made a good turn out of 'wild' and horned cattle.

If you go to a circus you'll see a lad getting lions doing tricks.

onyerbikepat

Down through the years we have had a few cattle go mad when unloading from the mart. Had a bullock once try to jump in through the window of the house. After that we decided all cattle would go straight into a shed and let out the following day hungry. They usually go grazing straight away.
Bottom line I suppose is you have no proof they were drugged. If they are that wild, keep them in a shed for the time being anyway. They might quieten down enough to be able to manage them.

LizzyOne

The uncle, my brother in law, up the road from us doesn't have a slatted cattle unit.
We do here at home.
He has these open feed yards.
My son manages it for him in the winter. But the problem is needing to go in and walk around the stock, checking things out.
That's not on. Not for this lot.
So if all goes to all I can see us offering to put up the stock in the slatted unit. Have to buy them first which all are reluctant to do.
There is no way those cattle will see an open field again.
It's a real aggravation thinking mart and owner will get away with this.
As everyone says: how can it be proved.
Someone else has suggested that magnesium given in the bloodstream can quieten stock too, for a while.
And probably no trace will be found either.
With cattle as nervous as this is it possible to inject anything at all into the blood?
Wouldn't someone prefer to give a quick direct injection into the muscle instead?
I just can't visualise these kind of bullocks standing still long enough to be given anything via a vein.
Ideas????
Also, did anyone manage to fatten a lunatic animal over a couple of months or longer? In a shed naturally.
Just wondering would the crazy beast be better off going to the factory rather than struggle to put some extra weight on him?

freedominacup

Brass Tag wrote: »

I
Only to Goodman!

Goodman has signs in lairage warning that any cattle likely to be wild or more difficult than normal to handle must be notified to lairage staff or farmer will be liable for any injuries/damage they cause. Certainly in aibp in Waterford.

greysides

Magnesium is usually given in drinking water for quietening purposes.... NZ and groups of bulls at grass.
I'm not sure how 'strong' it is. Undetectable at this stage I'd say.

Sedatives usually given IM.

Muckit

You will get nothing for them in factory if tgey aren't finished. What part of the country you in op? Send us a pm if your on for shipping them on again. No point having wild cattle round the place.

DarByrne1980

freedominacup wrote: »

Goodman has signs in lairage warning that any cattle likely to be wild or more difficult than normal to handle must be notified to lairage staff or farmer will be liable for any injuries/damage they cause. Certainly in aibp in Waterford.

its a nightmare bringING wild ones to the factory for sure. They will rare up for sure when theyre' in that environment or around the mart.

LizzyOne

It's agreed NOT to sell them in the mart. Not by any of us.
If owner takes them back will let you know.
They are red limousins; around 500 kgs or more.
Have learned he sold some more of his stock.
Don't know who bought them or how those farmers are getting on with them?
If you are one of them reading this let me know.
Details without landing in the soup over being too specific:
Mart was last Monday.
In Munster.
We live in the midlands, near Munster border.
Farmer does some work for the mart as well.
He sold some of his stock in twos.
We sent a friesian bull years ago to factory.
He was pure wicked in the end and we reared him ourselves from a calf.
Great to handle until his third year and then started attacking all the gates and ditches.
Best watchdog ever.
Would roar at anything and anyone.
We were glad to get rid of him in the end.
It took a loader and a good strong chain to bring him in out of the field.
The factory was warned well in advance and took all the necessary preparations.
The problem with these cattle is that there was no warning.
And as one of you said, if cattle are going to kick up a fuss they'd do it where there are loads of other cattle and people around the place, the mart.

KatyMac

Around 15 years ago I had a BB heifer calf on a AA cow. At about 3 months old she started to show dangerous. She'd never been mistreated, shouted at, hit and was with her mother and the rest of the cows/calves. At the time I had a small child stone daft about going out with her granddad to see the calves and my father was convinced they were safe as long as he had a stick. Well, one day she tried to chase them with the head down like a bull. Into the shed she went with the cow and a neighbour suggested he'd take her and put her in with a group of bigger cattle to 'put manners' on her. At 4 months old she was in a shed with much older cattle and she gave the neighbour such a scare before he fully respected her. She never saw the light of day again and was got rid of the minute she could have. He'd given me £100 just to seal the deal and with the cost of feeding her he probably made a loss on her. I think there must be the occasional animal that is just crazy.

Midlandsman80

Don't need to use something like Bute to calm something down for a while, if you have a lively horse for shoeing the farrier has this stuff and its just dabbed on their tongue and that calms them for a few hours...

It may be unusual behaviour for selling cattle but with horse sales its not at all unusual, the horse could be a lamb for a trail and be a looney the next day.

Midlandsman80

You could chance some bull of the feeding operations with ads on DD who take all sorts (link below-I have never dealt with them or haven't a clue who they).
Let them know the story, lads like that prob would not think twice if they thought they were getting a reasonable deal. esp if there is enough to fill a pen. they will never see a blade of grass or have people in front of them until the last day..

http://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/all-cattle/7857674

LizzyOne

Spoke to the factory agent/buyer about taking the mad bullock today.
Sure, no problem, especially when he heard about the beast flattening the uncle.
Know him well. Really nice guy. Genuine.
My son said to him what he suspected about the sedatives.
Uh oh!!!!
The agent had his own story to tell:
Said he had bought a few bullocks couple of years ago. A few days home. All fine and going well until one of them swallowed something and it got stuck in his throat. Best advice....took him to the factory.
Tests revealed the animal had residues. And the factory agent was struck dumb. First he'd heard of any of the newly bought bullocks being treated with something.
Nothing was declared at time of sale, and he hadn't given the bullock anything.
Now, I don't know what the animal had in his system but the department got involved and more tests carried out, especially on the other bullocks.
They were clean. So it was only the one animal that had the residues.
And now here is the totally unfair bit...
As far as the department was concerned the agent was the owner of that bullock at the time and so he was responsible. It didn't matter that he had the beast for less than a week, the bullock was his and that was that.
One thing stood to the factory agent's favour: only one animal proved positive and the rest were clean.
The department reluctantly agreed that it looked like the agent hadn't given the bullock anything.
If all the rest had been positive he was told the department would be on his back for years.
Still got a black mark on his record though.
Now, the factory agent says, did the uncle want to chance sending on that bullock and risk residues showing up and then bringing the department down on top of him, and god help him if any of the other bullocks tested positive.
It wouldn't count one bit to be upfront with them regarding the suspected sedatives because the department would find you guilty and it would be up to the farmer to prove his innocence.
Crazy! I know.
I thought the department would be keen to stamp out this kind of thing, and not jump all over the farmer who had been conned.
So, the bullock stayed in the yard.
And all of them still wild as deer.
Thanks for the advice.
Scary story about the crazy calf.

rangler1

LizzyOne wrote: »

Spoke to the factory agent/buyer about taking the mad bullock today.
Sure, no problem, especially when he heard about the beast flattening the uncle.
Know him well. Really nice guy. Genuine.
My son said to him what he suspected about the sedatives.
Uh oh!!!!
The agent had his own story to tell:
Said he had bought a few bullocks couple of years ago. A few days home. All fine and going well until one of them swallowed something and it got stuck in his throat. Best advice....took him to the factory.
Tests revealed the animal had residues. And the factory agent was struck dumb. First he'd heard of any of the newly bought bullocks being treated with something.
Nothing was declared at time of sale, and he hadn't given the bullock anything.
Now, I don't know what the animal had in his system but the department got involved and more tests carried out, especially on the other bullocks.
They were clean. So it was only the one animal that had the residues.
And now here is the totally unfair bit...
As far as the department was concerned the agent was the owner of that bullock at the time and so he was responsible. It didn't matter that he had the beast for less than a week, the bullock was his and that was that.
One thing stood to the factory agent's favour: only one animal proved positive and the rest were clean.
The department reluctantly agreed that it looked like the agent hadn't given the bullock anything.
If all the rest had been positive he was told the department would be on his back for years.
Still got a black mark on his record though.
Now, the factory agent says, did the uncle want to chance sending on that bullock and risk residues showing up and then bringing the department down on top of him, and god help him if any of the other bullocks tested positive.
It wouldn't count one bit to be upfront with them regarding the suspected sedatives because the department would find you guilty and it would be up to the farmer to prove his innocence.
Crazy! I know.
I thought the department would be keen to stamp out this kind of thing, and not jump all over the farmer who had been conned.
So, the bullock stayed in the yard.
And all of them still wild as deer.
Thanks for the advice.
Scary story about the crazy calf.

I actually posted here lately that it was irresponsible to sell an animal within the withdrawal period......went down here like a lead balloon .
Farmers don't realise they are food producers.....so irresponsible.
That's why we have the rules we have,:rolleyes:

Muckit

Your only option OP is to sell them to me at small money!!!:D:D:D I'II be down in the morning. You can pass the blue cards out the window!!

rangler1

Muckit wrote: »

Your only option OP is to sell them to me at small money!!!:D:D:D I'II be down in the morning. You can pass the blue cards out the window!!

Had a feeling it wasn't due to loyalty between boardsies alright

Mac Taylor

Muckit wrote: »

Your only option OP is to sell them to me at small money!!!:D:D:D I'II be down in the morning. You can pass the blue cards out the window!!

Muckit, you should change your name to chancer.:D

Muckit

rangler1 wrote: »

Had a feeling it wasn't due to loyalty between boardsies alright

It depends how you look at it. I am ensuring his/her safety is not put in jeopardy any further. What price can you put on that? He/she very distressed about it all. I am willing to alleviate this suffering. I also have to cover my own back.;)

Muckit

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Muckit, you should change your name to chancer.:D

Merely posing a solution to the problem. It has to be realistic from my point of view too though. I have to cover my risks, costs etc.

LizzyOne

Yep.
Totally irresponsible.
My opinion is to only sell something when you'd be happy to eat it yourself, whether its milk, beef, eggs and so on.
Mistakes can be made.
But these cowboys ruin it for everyone because its tars us all with the one brush.

rangler1

Muckit wrote: »

Merely posing a solution to the problem. It has to be realistic from my point of view too though. I have to cover my risks, costs etc.

I hope you're well set up, not just chancing it in a normal cattle shed setup.
Money'll be no good if anything goes wrong.....I know what I'd do with them if I owned them and take the full loss

rangler1

LizzyOne wrote: »

Yep.
Totally irresponsible.
My opinion is to only sell something when you'd be happy to eat it yourself, whether its milk, beef, eggs and so on.
Mistakes can be made.
But these cowboys ruin it for everyone because its tars us all with the one brush.

Isn't there something about having the beast on your own farm for 70 days to be QA....That's probably why that rule is there

LizzyOne

At the moment going to drop the idea of sending anything off to the factory as no one wants to be blamed for another's irresponsibility.
How long does it take for these residues to clear from the meat?
The mart is putting pressure on the previous owner to settle this matter.
Whatever that will achieve?!?!
Looking doubtful the owner will cave.
If all goes to all, we will probably buy the bullocks from my brother in law and put them in our own slatted shed.
It's housed bulls. It will house these guys.
And everything can be managed very well outside of the cattle pens.
But if that lunatic bullock doesn't settle how long would you wait before sending him to the factory?

who the fug

Has anyone taken a blood sample? If not why not

rangler1

LizzyOne wrote: »

At the moment going to drop the idea of sending anything off to the factory as no one wants to be blamed for another's irresponsibility.
How long does it take for these residues to clear from the meat?
The mart is putting pressure on the previous owner to settle this matter.
Whatever that will achieve?!?!
Looking doubtful the owner will cave.
If all goes to all, we will probably buy the bullocks from my brother in law and put them in our own slatted shed.
It's housed bulls. It will house these guys.
And everything can be managed very well outside of the cattle pens.
But if that lunatic bullock doesn't settle how long would you wait before sending him to the factory?

I think the longest legal antibiotic withdrawal is 35days.
there is a theory that camomile tea soothes cattle...might be just pisheogs

LizzyOne

I've used 28 days and 35 days withdrawal antibiotics. All legal and withdrawal times respected. Wouldn't have it any other way.
It's the tranquilliser/sedative withdrawal times I'm wondering about?
Is it even possible to roughly estimate what was maybe used, how much, and how long such residues would remain in the meat?
Or is it the case that using something like this in cattle when it's meant for maybe only horses means that the wildest guess might be the only answer in working out withdrawal times?
Camomile tea works on humans.... Would the bullocks like it enough to drink it?and I think gallons of the stuff would be needed.
They can be happy with water.
As for blood samples ... My brother in law thought the owner would be over in a flash when he heard the looney bullock had attacked him.
Not at all.
The owner took his time getting in touch and then stated right out his cattle were quiet. Didn't bother to ask how my brother in law was. Just said he wasn't taking them back.
And then the vet said the blood samples needed to be taken the same day as the sale.
We're on a sharp learning curve here. Keep discovering that there is little to protect the buyer in this. It all plays to the sellers advantage.
Even knowing about the necessity for early blood sampling; I'm not sure we would have succeeded getting those bullocks into the crush that first day.

Muckit

Hitting the sack. Have a long drive in the morning

leg wax

rompun could have been used :rolleyes::o