Mad cattle

curious guy

Is there anyway of calming down wild cattle. LIke does putting them in a shed and feeding them so they get more contact with people helpful.. ,what have people tried? or is there anything can be done with them?

vanderbadger

probably not, I find mad cattle will be quiet as mice in shed but still mad when they go out, the only hope is to feed them abit of meal, especially if its hard to get them into yard try and get them used to coming to a trough for meal and you have a better hope, or maybe leave an old cow or two run with them, easy to get old cows as far as the gate, mad cattle will follow them out

roosterman71

In the same way as there's mad people, there'll be always mad cattle!! I think its more nerves though than anything. The previous poster is right though when he says to use some meal. Just a bit in a bucket and leave it for them to eat on the grass is the same thing as a trough. Eventually, when they see you coming they'll come over to you and not run away. in time they'll eat of the bucket as you hold it and follow you round.

In conclusion, meal is a farmers best friend!!

Claasman

Another trick is to maybe shake a paper meal bag everytime you go to feed them, they will associate that noise them with getting fed and will follow you anywhere if you shake the bag then in future. Very handy for moving them from field to field.

oflynno

little known fact,cattle go nuts for sliced pan bread!

if you bring a loaf with you as a treat they will go anywhere for it.

pakalasa

Another trick I've learned - if you have cattle in a crush, rub your hand up and down along their backbone. It will quiten the wildest of them before you you go handle them.;)

If you want to round up wild cattle - have one person do it, ideally the person that does the herding everyday. Approach them slowly, stand still for a while until they are comfortable with you, and then move in again. (like a sheepdog). Don't shout or wave a stick. Some cattle are deadly, especially older suckler cows, they will sense the smallest change from herding.
As said above - you can't beat a bit of meal. Even a handfull every few days. They will come for it even out of boredom.

Longterm of course breed from bulls with a high docility index (where available). ICBF have will have this soon on all common AI bulls.

curious guy

Thanks few interesting tips there.... usually up the ramp for the really bad ones as soon as there fat no point taking chances.

who the fug

oflynno wrote: »

little known fact,cattle go nuts for sliced pan bread!

if you bring a loaf with you as a treat they will go anywhere for it.

Well know fact, if you spent any time with them

mink_man

what do ya do with the bread?

oflynno

mink_man wrote: »

what do ya do with the bread?

eh, you throw a few slices to them and they eat it and like it.
a treat.

whelan1

walk through them a bit more often :rolleyes:

irish_bob

curious guy wrote: »

Is there anyway of calming down wild cattle. LIke does putting them in a shed and feeding them so they get more contact with people helpful.. ,what have people tried? or is there anything can be done with them?

what breed of cattle are theese , let me guess , SALER,s

curious guy

Ah no breed in particular the odd charloias and Limosine...was just wondering the ideas out there for dealing wit them

pjbrady1

Have to say. If you go into Limousin breed you take the risks. Maddest breed going? I'v never heard of any other breed coming close.
I'v never seen a breed to have such wildness in some o them. Yet you'd never read in the Farmers Journal anyone questioning there temperament. Yet up n down the country if you asked farmers which wild cattle they had owned, you'll hear lots o them start off "I had a limousin wan time ..."
Compare to Belgian Blue who are quiet as a mouse.

Meal feeding with a bucket would have to help as they get used to contact and reward for standing there beside you as they eat. Stand reasonably near as they eat from the bucket. Cattle need to become familiar with you. You'll know it's working if in a grazing field they let you get closer and closer.
I remember when I was young (9) I could milk any of our cattle for milk, they were all so used to us. Few times it happened I milked whichever cow was closest to the house for the pre school cornflakes. N the cow standing in the open field, as I remember I'd throw her a bucket o nuts to quieten her.

oflynno

funny about the limousins

i worked on a farm and the vet told me they draw straws and whoever loses had to tb test the cattle

they would stand for the first jab,but the second and they would drop they head or try to jump the crush

the vet reckon there was 20% reindeer blood in them,the mad feckers

pakalasa

When I started suckling a few years ago, I always remember the look of terror on the AI man's face when he first saw the yard of limousin heifers. He told me later that they were the quitest bunch of sucklers he ever handled. I had got a good tip from a local guy. He told me to go into the pens at the mart and see how quiet they were before buying. I also look up the Docility Index of bulls when I am breeding replacements. The ICBF webpage doesn't have this (yet), but the IRISH LIMOUSIN site does.
I remember there was an old bull in NCBC called Moustic (MTC). His docility index is 68, which is = 'stone raving mad lunatic'. Compare this to Rocky (ROX), docility 124 and you get the picture.
The newer bred limousins are way quiter than those from years ago. I could tell you a few stories but you've probaly heard them all before. What amazed me most was when you were standing at a gap or whatever, they would try and literally run straight through you, unlike any other breed which would try and go around ya! Ah the good old days.

Bitten & Hisses

Pakalasa is bang on about breeding. The only people who condemn all Limousins as being mad are those who know nothing about their breeding. 10 years ago, I was one of those people, until my vet educated me. I also have 2 cows out of Moustic, one of whom is one of the quietest cows I have and the other is a stark raving lunatic. I cannot wait for the day I have sufficient replacements to send the mad one to the factory. I have cows out of Navarin, Rocky, Litron and Ferry, all of whom are easily managed. When using AI, I select for docility and use a stock bull with a docility score of ~120.
To sum up, my take on docility is that it depends on 2 factors:
1. Breeding, which is the most important of all.
2. The nature and frequency of interaction with you or other humans. If you have people roaring and shouting, or if they rarely see you, then don't expect a rapturous welcome when you walk into the field.One other thing: In my experience, you will never drive Limousins anywhere, you have to lead them.

curious guy

Only have one or two but they tend to take off if the sense we re going herding them in ... the rest are well checked and handled everyday and come when called..didnt know about the doclity index but we dont use AI ...interesting though...

pakalasa

..and who said Belgian Blues were quiet. see pic.

Seriously though, anybody know anything about these bulls in Pamplona.
What breed are they?
Even if they are bred to be wild, they must be constantly antagonised to get that wild....somebody there to give them a good kick in the ar** every now and then.
Heard a Spaniard was killed this year. Crazy...
Surprising the Irish never did something like this, sounds like great fun :eek:

oflynno

pakalasa wrote: »

..and who said Belgian Blues were quiet. see pic.

Seriously though, anybody know anything about these bulls in Pamplona.
What breed are they?
Even if they are bred to be wild, they must be constantly antagonised to get that wild....somebody there to give them a good kick in the ar** every now and then.
Heard a Spaniard was killed this year. Crazy...
Surprising the Irish never did something like this, sounds like great fun :eek:

'twould be good craic allright

a bull run in mallow or ballyhaunis or somewhere like that,maybe through thurles and into semple stadium. . . . . no,that was feile all those years ago.....

blue5000

I heard that when Irish breeders first went to France about 25-30 years ago the smart French ppl only sold the mad limousin cows that they had. Anyone else hear anything similar?

Yes i agree with the comment about having a few old cows in with them, I graze yearling bulls and the best trick for moving them is to have an old cow with them and just move her out the gap and the bulls follow.

Another one is to feed a bag of meal (every day) along under the electric fence for a month before housing them or selling them, it gets them used to meal and being close to you.

Shazforgrub

I wouldn't be suprised by that at all, a lot of people go to France for stock and come back with ****e.

IMO cattle that have no human contact for ages and are stone mad should just be sent to the factory, its a waste of time trying to calm them down, no matter what the breed, and some one could just end up getting badly hurt

adne

Shazforgrub wrote: »

IMO cattle that have no human contact for ages and are stone mad should just be sent to the factory, its a waste of time trying to calm them down, no matter what the breed, and some one could just end up getting badly hurt

Very true, if mad.. fattenin and put on an S hook

icanchange49

on the idea of giving wild cattle bread careful yaall if carrying any brightly coloured item into field cos they will attack the item and you as well. Carried a blue bucket into a field of limos and they chased and attacked, i threw the bucket and they crushed it into pieces while i just about got over the gate covered in cuts and bruises!

mccabeherself

Lims are mad, but it's more to do with the way they are treated as calves. Quiet dams will teach the calves that humans can be trusted. So in the long run it's easier to seperate heifers that will be kept for breeding and pay more attention to keeping them docile.

On our farm we now have cattle so quiet that we have on occasions dosed them in the field, as well as testing a few heifers. The vets have no problem here!



Ans eh....aren't cattle colour blind, on the topic of brightly coloured objects????

vanderbadger

just to say had a bad evening chasing cattle yest evening, gang of 2 years old bullocks broke in with suckler heard..fcuk me.. normally can manage the cows ok but the bullocks set them mad, spend hours trying to get them all in during which time they went stright thru several fences and over a few walls.. had to get a few neighbors..strangers really set them off..resolved last night that the next time 2 particular cows are in the yard the wont be leaving till they are in the back of a trailer, the bullocks will be going soon anyway..mad cows..life is too short!

MfMan

Been there, worn the t-shirt Van. You really are better off if at all possible coaxing the lot along with a bucket of meal. This is where good fences, gates, walls etc. are beyond price. Avoid strangers unless absolutely necessary.

Indubitable

pjbrady1 wrote: »

Have to say. If you go into Limousin breed you take the risks. Maddest breed going? I'v never heard of any other breed coming close.
I'v never seen a breed to have such wildness in some o them. Yet you'd never read in the Farmers Journal anyone questioning there temperament. Yet up n down the country if you asked farmers which wild cattle they had owned, you'll hear lots o them start off "I had a limousin wan time ..."
Compare to Belgian Blue who are quiet as a mouse.

Meal feeding with a bucket would have to help as they get used to contact and reward for standing there beside you as they eat. Stand reasonably near as they eat from the bucket. Cattle need to become familiar with you. You'll know it's working if in a grazing field they let you get closer and closer.
I remember when I was young (9) I could milk any of our cattle for milk, they were all so used to us. Few times it happened I milked whichever cow was closest to the house for the pre school cornflakes. N the cow standing in the open field, as I remember I'd throw her a bucket o nuts to quieten her.

I actually own a limousin and a belgian blue bull. the limousin bull and his calves are all very lively but the belgian blue bull is a pet. he licks me when a give him nuts.

LizzyOne

My son bought some limousin cattle last Monday in the mart.
Some of the quietest bullocks he'd ever seen. Could even give them a gentle pat on the back for loading them up into the cattle trailer.
Bought them for an elderly uncle. Grand, he thought, the uncle would have no problem with them at all.
Brought them to the farmyard. Unloaded them in daylight...
Well, they shot out of the trailer like it was on fire.
Tore off down the yard, luckily all the gates were locked.
Absolutely stone wall mad.
And one bullock saw the uncle standing inside the gate to get a good look at the new stock... Put the head down and ran for him all out.
My son got the fright of his life!!! He thought his uncle was dead for sure.
The uncle walloped the bullock as it came for him, avoided the head, but got turned upside down.
The bullock was going so fast he crashed into one of the yard gates.
My son grabbed his uncle, checked to see he could walk and got them both to hell out of the way.
His uncle luckily has no broken bones but is badly bruised and battered. The doctor told him he could have been easily killed.
The mart was contacted.
Yep, its buyer beware and all that.
Hard to accept when these animals were quiet as lambs in the mart and became demons when released in their new home.
The previous owner was contacted by the mart and spoke to my son.
Nope. Won't take them back. Said they were quiet with him. Might come to have a look at these bullocks at the weekend.
So this is Wednesday now. The bullocks are still in the same yard, being fed silage and meal in a circular feeder. And all done with a loader.
Can't get into the yard without that bullock making a run at you. And the others are like deer, heads up, spooked at the slightest sound and looking ready to attack the walls again.
Advice???
And no, definitely not selling that totally mad bullock. Irresponsible, reckless, and not something anyone should ever think of considering.
What is the best course of action?
Why would cattle show such extremes in behaviour?
Is there any chance these will ever quieten or will they be gone with the wind if let off with other quiet stock?
Appreciate any replies.

TUBBY

LizzyOne wrote: »

My son bought some limousin cattle last Monday in the mart.
Some of the quietest bullocks he'd ever seen. Could even give them a gentle pat on the back for loading them up into the cattle trailer.
Bought them for an elderly uncle. Grand, he thought, the uncle would have no problem with them at all.
Brought them to the farmyard. Unloaded them in daylight...
Well, they shot out of the trailer like it was on fire.
Tore off down the yard, luckily all the gates were locked.
Absolutely stone wall mad.
And one bullock saw the uncle standing inside the gate to get a good look at the new stock... Put the head down and ran for him all out.
My son got the fright of his life!!! He thought his uncle was dead for sure.
The uncle walloped the bullock as it came for him, avoided the head, but got turned upside down.
The bullock was going so fast he crashed into one of the yard gates.
My son grabbed his uncle, checked to see he could walk and got them both to hell out of the way.
His uncle luckily has no broken bones but is badly bruised and battered. The doctor told him he could have been easily killed.
The mart was contacted.
Yep, its buyer beware and all that.
Hard to accept when these animals were quiet as lambs in the mart and became demons when released in their new home.
The previous owner was contacted by the mart and spoke to my son.
Nope. Won't take them back. Said they were quiet with him. Might come to have a look at these bullocks at the weekend.
So this is Wednesday now. The bullocks are still in the same yard, being fed silage and meal in a circular feeder. And all done with a loader.
Can't get into the yard without that bullock making a run at you. And the others are like deer, heads up, spooked at the slightest sound and looking ready to attack the walls again.
Advice???
And no, definitely not selling that totally mad bullock. Irresponsible, reckless, and not something anyone should ever think of considering.
What is the best course of action?
Why would cattle show such extremes in behaviour?
Is there any chance these will ever quieten or will they be gone with the wind if let off with other quiet stock?
Appreciate any replies.

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

LizzyOne

Quick note to point out that the mad bullock won't be sold in the mart again.
Don't want some poor unsuspecting farmer to be killed by that animal.

Feckthis

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

If you could separate the wild fella and bring him straight to the factory I'd say is your best bet. And maybe follow up on what tubby said about a blood sample. I wouldn't keep him around after that. No matter how quiet he gets.

J.O. Farmer

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

Bute has to be illegal in cattle as horses getting it can't enter the food chain.

I saw the same happen with a heifer years ago. Quiet as a lamb being loaded on a trailer on her own. She was let out into a pen at home and we thought she'd kill someone. She settled down though and we had her for a lot of years as a cow. Maybe it's the excitement of being transported.

Mad4simmental

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire.

++1 first thing I thought of. You might have a leg to stand on if this is the case

LizzyOne

Asked the vet his opinion.
The vet said it sounded like the animals were given something. He knew what he was talking about but didn't give it a name.
Bute?
Is that given to horses?
Anyway, whatever these bullocks might have been given would be gone out of the blood inside twelve hours. The vet told my son this and he's proven to be on the ball in a lot of things. So it was too late to look for a blood test when the bullocks were left to supposedly quieten down over night.
However.... There is a chance it could show up in the meat if an animal is killed within a few days or a week.
Really thinking strongly about getting the mad one sent on to the factory and take the loss if owner and mart won't see sense.
Anyone have experience of something like this showing up in a purchased animal that had to be sent for slaughter??

smokey-fitz

LizzyOne wrote: »

Quick note to point out that the mad bullock won't be sold in the mart again.
Don't want some poor unsuspecting farmer to be killed by that animal.

If you can seperate him from the rest to stop them going mad. If you have him on his own in a good secure pen, feed a bit of meal and hay 2 or 3 times a day, talk a bit to him to so he gets used to your voice. If he calms down in a week or so start moving him around the yard, up through the crush without doseing or shouting. It will take time but should help.

Most importantly dont put yourself in a position were you can be trapped, ie a wall, always have a escape route

TUBBY

LizzyOne wrote: »

Asked the vet his opinion.
The vet said it sounded like the animals were given something. He knew what he was talking about but didn't give it a name.
Bute?
Is that given to horses?
Anyway, whatever these bullocks might have been given would be gone out of the blood inside twelve hours. The vet told my son this and he's proven to be on the ball in a lot of things. So it was too late to look for a blood test when the bullocks were left to supposedly quieten down over night.
However.... There is a chance it could show up in the meat if an animal is killed within a few days or a week.
Really thinking strongly about getting the mad one sent on to the factory and take the loss if owner and mart won't see sense.
Anyone have experience of something like this showing up in a purchased animal that had to be sent for slaughter??

you are right. Bute goes through system very quickly with a short half life but a metabolite of it- Oxyphenbutazone, can be detected in residual amounts for up to 96hrs.
if it was me, i would check this before sending to factory. If you killed him and residue of anything found, you would have hard job defending yourself.
also from a conscience point of view, if ya suspect bute, it shouldn't be allowed into food chain.

Genghis Cant

The last thing I'd do with a mad bullock is separate him from his comrades. If anything I'd try add a few quite ones with them.
They may well settle down, if you're willing to take a chance. It's no fun having a lunatic around the place though.

greysides

Bute is not a sedative, any more than aspirin is.

DarByrne1980

Genghis Cant wrote: »

The last thing I'd do with a mad bullock is separate him from his comrades. If anything I'd try add a few quite ones with them.
They may well settle down, if you're willing to take a chance. It's no fun having a lunatic around the place though.

I agree - separatin him could just make him even more of a lunatic. No fun at all having a lunatic bullock around the place. Hell break the place up on you. gates, shed doors doesn't matter . hell batter them. A few quieter ones with him could do the trick.

Mac Taylor

greysides wrote: »

Bute is not a sedative, any more than aspirin is.

Is bute more for lameness due to pushing animals too much with meal etc?
There is other products out there (some of them natural) to quiten animals so anything is possible. Had a heifer last year that was very flighty when we brought her home but after spending 3|4 months last winter on the slats really quitened her down.

My advice assuming no help from mart etc send him to the factory and pre-warn them of the temperament issues. Life is too short.

greysides

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Is bute more for lameness due to pushing animals too much with meal etc?

Yes, it would help take the edge off the pain of laminitis.

Reggie.

greysides wrote: »

Yes, it would help take the edge off the pain of laminitis.

What weight of cattle would you be talking there

Willfarman

Terribly unlucky. I would add more cattle to the group and start mealing them. On no account attempt to separate the worst animal.

greysides

Reggie, the weight is not really relevant except that it would be cattle being finished on high grain diets. The laminitis is a potential side-effect of the high meal feeding.

LizzyOne

Ok.
Some really good advice was given.
The possibilities are:
One is where the previous owner takes back his cattle.
Number two is to kill the mad bullock and get the meat tested for residues. Try and get the rest of the wild bunch to settle down in the yard with a bit of feeding.
Three, which is unlikely, is to keep possession of all the bullocks and see if they will become tame enough to release out to the fields.
Best bet is removing the mad lad. You could never turn your back on him. He's done it once; he will do it again and the next time could be fatal.
The other bullocks? Should they be kept in the yard and just start feeding them for the factory now?
What do you think? These other bullocks are wild. Could they turn aggressive like the other one?
As for any possible residues that might be found if the animal is slaughtered....
That is another kettle of fish.
It would confirm the animals extremes in behaviour if positive, and prove puzzling if negative.
Did anyone experience anything like this?
If an animal is treated with bute or something like it can it affect their brain, making them psychotic/mad/bad after the sedating effects wear off?
It's proving a real problem trying to work out what to do in this situation but thanks to everyone for replying as it helps to know what could be done.
And to clarify: my husband and his brother are experienced cattle men. Many years, loads of cattle bought or reared, sold, purchased and so on. But sedating cattle? That's a new one and not relished.
These bullocks were MAD from the minute they were unloaded. Neither brother has ever seen anything as bad or dangerous as this lot.
Now there is a slight chance most could be fattened for the factory inside the shed. But that seriously evil streak of badness will never quieten down. A neighbour went to have a look at the cattle today, from the safe side of the gate, and the bullock went for him.
So that's about it for that animal.
The uncle I think would be more than happy to see him gone and take a loss.
He told me it was the most terrifying experience to have this big powerful beast charging at him and knowing he couldn't get away in time. He had a big stick in his hand and swung it as hard and fast as he could to try and make the animal turn his head.
He wouldn't wish it on anyone.

greysides

As for any possible residues that might be found if the animal is slaughtered....

You would need to get advice on a few aspects of this.

How will you get the animal to a slaughter facility?
Who is liable if something is found in the meat? What are the consequences?
Are the tests needed to determine if anything/what is present available to you. At what cost?
Would whatever is suspected still be detectable by the time the animal is killed?

The possibility of having them tested for residues may be of use as a negotiating tactic with the previous owner. His reaction may give you the answer you need.

If an animal is treated with bute or something like it can it affect their brain, making them psychotic/mad/bad after the sedating effects wear off?

No.


It sounds as if you need to have another chat with your vet to trash things out.

Markcheese

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

How would you blood test the pyscho ?
At this stage proving it would be tough, but if you do get a positive sample , but can't prove where they acquired the dose you're feked ...

LizzyOne

Here's a quick question:
Is there a general mart policy concerning cattle behaviour and how to proceed if there is a suspicion of animals being sedated to make them sellable?
To make it plain ... If cattle are quiet in the ring and then become wild when brought to the farmers home .... Is there a guideline to advise marts to look out for the buyers interests rather than the sellers?
Should there be a strict policy of telling buyers to immediately get their vets to take blood from purchased stock if sedatives are suspected?
Is it true that bulls are being blood tested now before sale in the marts as sedation was becoming a big problem in cloaking aggressive behaviour?
Will there be a trend towards blood testing all livestock before sale?
Or would that be on too grand a scale?
Just what percentage of cattle are being sedated prior to sale?
There must be some indication.
There are just too many stories out there for this to be happening on a small scale.
My word, its unbelievable all the shenanigans that seem to be happening with cattle today.
It's like the Wild West.

gozunda

Oh for the traditional breeds that were quite and docile even when put under presure. Ok many were handled more often but I reckon many of the continental breeds today have a screw loose at best ..

Farmer Pudsey

As farmers we have to take harder lines with marts on issues like this. I had an isssue 2-3 years ago with a bullock with warts on the rod. Bought him in a bunch of 10. He was bought on a Friday and the bunch were in the mart overnight. I did not see until Saturday evening.

He was unloaded into a straw bedded pen. By the time I saw him he could not retract rod. Rang mart manager on Monday morning. we had a discussion about it. It hinged on one point because of no of cattle in bunch I could not detect issue in the ring or after in the pen. The owner should have send him in separate. It never got heated but I stood my ground. I delivered him back the following day.

OP if animal was quite in ring I bring mart manager to farm. If rest will quiten down it may be easy to sort it out. Your contract is with the mart. You pay a buyer's fee. I would forget about previous owner. I would deal direct with mart manger. Maybe blood test the really wild one. In my case the mart manager tried to make the point about the two hour rule. My argument was the issue was not detectable until they arrived at my farm.

Marts have to chase these types of issues. Discuss with your vet again. See what drug he thinks may be responsible. Maybe discuss possibilty of bute with mart manager and send them a letter advising same. If down the line cattle are rejected at slaughter it is on the record with mart.

It is all about being tough ( a nasty f@@ker)

Next time buy your uncle a few good friesian bullocks