Mad cattle

Feckthis

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

If you could separate the wild fella and bring him straight to the factory I'd say is your best bet. And maybe follow up on what tubby said about a blood sample. I wouldn't keep him around after that. No matter how quiet he gets.

J.O. Farmer

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

Bute has to be illegal in cattle as horses getting it can't enter the food chain.

I saw the same happen with a heifer years ago. Quiet as a lamb being loaded on a trailer on her own. She was let out into a pen at home and we thought she'd kill someone. She settled down though and we had her for a lot of years as a cow. Maybe it's the excitement of being transported.

Mad4simmental

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire.

++1 first thing I thought of. You might have a leg to stand on if this is the case

LizzyOne

Asked the vet his opinion.
The vet said it sounded like the animals were given something. He knew what he was talking about but didn't give it a name.
Bute?
Is that given to horses?
Anyway, whatever these bullocks might have been given would be gone out of the blood inside twelve hours. The vet told my son this and he's proven to be on the ball in a lot of things. So it was too late to look for a blood test when the bullocks were left to supposedly quieten down over night.
However.... There is a chance it could show up in the meat if an animal is killed within a few days or a week.
Really thinking strongly about getting the mad one sent on to the factory and take the loss if owner and mart won't see sense.
Anyone have experience of something like this showing up in a purchased animal that had to be sent for slaughter??

smokey-fitz

LizzyOne wrote: »

Quick note to point out that the mad bullock won't be sold in the mart again.
Don't want some poor unsuspecting farmer to be killed by that animal.

If you can seperate him from the rest to stop them going mad. If you have him on his own in a good secure pen, feed a bit of meal and hay 2 or 3 times a day, talk a bit to him to so he gets used to your voice. If he calms down in a week or so start moving him around the yard, up through the crush without doseing or shouting. It will take time but should help.

Most importantly dont put yourself in a position were you can be trapped, ie a wall, always have a escape route

TUBBY

LizzyOne wrote: »

Asked the vet his opinion.
The vet said it sounded like the animals were given something. He knew what he was talking about but didn't give it a name.
Bute?
Is that given to horses?
Anyway, whatever these bullocks might have been given would be gone out of the blood inside twelve hours. The vet told my son this and he's proven to be on the ball in a lot of things. So it was too late to look for a blood test when the bullocks were left to supposedly quieten down over night.
However.... There is a chance it could show up in the meat if an animal is killed within a few days or a week.
Really thinking strongly about getting the mad one sent on to the factory and take the loss if owner and mart won't see sense.
Anyone have experience of something like this showing up in a purchased animal that had to be sent for slaughter??

you are right. Bute goes through system very quickly with a short half life but a metabolite of it- Oxyphenbutazone, can be detected in residual amounts for up to 96hrs.
if it was me, i would check this before sending to factory. If you killed him and residue of anything found, you would have hard job defending yourself.
also from a conscience point of view, if ya suspect bute, it shouldn't be allowed into food chain.

Genghis Cant

The last thing I'd do with a mad bullock is separate him from his comrades. If anything I'd try add a few quite ones with them.
They may well settle down, if you're willing to take a chance. It's no fun having a lunatic around the place though.

greysides

Bute is not a sedative, any more than aspirin is.

DarByrne1980

Genghis Cant wrote: »

The last thing I'd do with a mad bullock is separate him from his comrades. If anything I'd try add a few quite ones with them.
They may well settle down, if you're willing to take a chance. It's no fun having a lunatic around the place though.

I agree - separatin him could just make him even more of a lunatic. No fun at all having a lunatic bullock around the place. Hell break the place up on you. gates, shed doors doesn't matter . hell batter them. A few quieter ones with him could do the trick.

Mac Taylor

greysides wrote: »

Bute is not a sedative, any more than aspirin is.

Is bute more for lameness due to pushing animals too much with meal etc?
There is other products out there (some of them natural) to quiten animals so anything is possible. Had a heifer last year that was very flighty when we brought her home but after spending 3|4 months last winter on the slats really quitened her down.

My advice assuming no help from mart etc send him to the factory and pre-warn them of the temperament issues. Life is too short.

greysides

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Is bute more for lameness due to pushing animals too much with meal etc?

Yes, it would help take the edge off the pain of laminitis.

Reggie.

greysides wrote: »

Yes, it would help take the edge off the pain of laminitis.

What weight of cattle would you be talking there

Willfarman

Terribly unlucky. I would add more cattle to the group and start mealing them. On no account attempt to separate the worst animal.

greysides

Reggie, the weight is not really relevant except that it would be cattle being finished on high grain diets. The laminitis is a potential side-effect of the high meal feeding.

LizzyOne

Ok.
Some really good advice was given.
The possibilities are:
One is where the previous owner takes back his cattle.
Number two is to kill the mad bullock and get the meat tested for residues. Try and get the rest of the wild bunch to settle down in the yard with a bit of feeding.
Three, which is unlikely, is to keep possession of all the bullocks and see if they will become tame enough to release out to the fields.
Best bet is removing the mad lad. You could never turn your back on him. He's done it once; he will do it again and the next time could be fatal.
The other bullocks? Should they be kept in the yard and just start feeding them for the factory now?
What do you think? These other bullocks are wild. Could they turn aggressive like the other one?
As for any possible residues that might be found if the animal is slaughtered....
That is another kettle of fish.
It would confirm the animals extremes in behaviour if positive, and prove puzzling if negative.
Did anyone experience anything like this?
If an animal is treated with bute or something like it can it affect their brain, making them psychotic/mad/bad after the sedating effects wear off?
It's proving a real problem trying to work out what to do in this situation but thanks to everyone for replying as it helps to know what could be done.
And to clarify: my husband and his brother are experienced cattle men. Many years, loads of cattle bought or reared, sold, purchased and so on. But sedating cattle? That's a new one and not relished.
These bullocks were MAD from the minute they were unloaded. Neither brother has ever seen anything as bad or dangerous as this lot.
Now there is a slight chance most could be fattened for the factory inside the shed. But that seriously evil streak of badness will never quieten down. A neighbour went to have a look at the cattle today, from the safe side of the gate, and the bullock went for him.
So that's about it for that animal.
The uncle I think would be more than happy to see him gone and take a loss.
He told me it was the most terrifying experience to have this big powerful beast charging at him and knowing he couldn't get away in time. He had a big stick in his hand and swung it as hard and fast as he could to try and make the animal turn his head.
He wouldn't wish it on anyone.

greysides

As for any possible residues that might be found if the animal is slaughtered....

You would need to get advice on a few aspects of this.

How will you get the animal to a slaughter facility?
Who is liable if something is found in the meat? What are the consequences?
Are the tests needed to determine if anything/what is present available to you. At what cost?
Would whatever is suspected still be detectable by the time the animal is killed?

The possibility of having them tested for residues may be of use as a negotiating tactic with the previous owner. His reaction may give you the answer you need.

If an animal is treated with bute or something like it can it affect their brain, making them psychotic/mad/bad after the sedating effects wear off?

No.


It sounds as if you need to have another chat with your vet to trash things out.

Markcheese

TUBBY wrote: »

only a hunch but any chance bute given to them to quieten them while in mart. If this is the case it is disgusting. Blood samples would actually tell you if you wanted to enquire. Might have case then to give them back as bute in cattle is illegal afaik.

if you keeping them, throw a bit if meal into trough every day for couple of weeks. Amazing how quick even a nutjob will settle. Sound to me also like the one mad lad might be driving others wild too.

How would you blood test the pyscho ?
At this stage proving it would be tough, but if you do get a positive sample , but can't prove where they acquired the dose you're feked ...

LizzyOne

Here's a quick question:
Is there a general mart policy concerning cattle behaviour and how to proceed if there is a suspicion of animals being sedated to make them sellable?
To make it plain ... If cattle are quiet in the ring and then become wild when brought to the farmers home .... Is there a guideline to advise marts to look out for the buyers interests rather than the sellers?
Should there be a strict policy of telling buyers to immediately get their vets to take blood from purchased stock if sedatives are suspected?
Is it true that bulls are being blood tested now before sale in the marts as sedation was becoming a big problem in cloaking aggressive behaviour?
Will there be a trend towards blood testing all livestock before sale?
Or would that be on too grand a scale?
Just what percentage of cattle are being sedated prior to sale?
There must be some indication.
There are just too many stories out there for this to be happening on a small scale.
My word, its unbelievable all the shenanigans that seem to be happening with cattle today.
It's like the Wild West.

gozunda

Oh for the traditional breeds that were quite and docile even when put under presure. Ok many were handled more often but I reckon many of the continental breeds today have a screw loose at best ..

Farmer Pudsey

As farmers we have to take harder lines with marts on issues like this. I had an isssue 2-3 years ago with a bullock with warts on the rod. Bought him in a bunch of 10. He was bought on a Friday and the bunch were in the mart overnight. I did not see until Saturday evening.

He was unloaded into a straw bedded pen. By the time I saw him he could not retract rod. Rang mart manager on Monday morning. we had a discussion about it. It hinged on one point because of no of cattle in bunch I could not detect issue in the ring or after in the pen. The owner should have send him in separate. It never got heated but I stood my ground. I delivered him back the following day.

OP if animal was quite in ring I bring mart manager to farm. If rest will quiten down it may be easy to sort it out. Your contract is with the mart. You pay a buyer's fee. I would forget about previous owner. I would deal direct with mart manger. Maybe blood test the really wild one. In my case the mart manager tried to make the point about the two hour rule. My argument was the issue was not detectable until they arrived at my farm.

Marts have to chase these types of issues. Discuss with your vet again. See what drug he thinks may be responsible. Maybe discuss possibilty of bute with mart manager and send them a letter advising same. If down the line cattle are rejected at slaughter it is on the record with mart.

It is all about being tough ( a nasty f@@ker)

Next time buy your uncle a few good friesian bullocks

tim04750

Stop the cheque straightaway and tell the mart its stopped, give yourself a bit of leverage.You'll find people will listen a little better.

blue5000

tim04750 wrote: »

Stop the cheque straightaway and tell the mart its stopped, give yourself a bit of leverage.You'll find people will listen a little better.

That's the best bit of advice on here, money talks. I stopped breeding limousin cattle years ago, got stuck to a wall by a bull and walked on by a cow.

If you have no joy with mart/prev owner fatten them ASAP. The mad bullock could be a rigg, only half castrated.

have2flushtwice

Any chance u cud pay a visit to the old farm and c if there are any other crazy ones?

Farmer Pudsey

tim04750 wrote: »

Stop the cheque straightaway and tell the mart its stopped, give yourself a bit of leverage.You'll find people will listen a little better.

Do this straight away, cheque will clear tomorrow. If you manage to stop it notify Mart manager straight away and tell him why. Tell him come and collect cattle. You have a record of doctor visit of your uncle. Your son has the fact that mart staff found them easy to load with you.

This is really good advice to stop cheque it gives you barganing power

LizzyOne

About stopping the cheque:
The uncle rang the bank yesterday morning. The bank official told him it had gone through on Tuesday!!!!!
Unbelievable, I know!
Very good point about the contract of sale with the mart.
Excellent really!
They are paid commission fees.
My son will be talking to the mart manager again this morning.
After that we will see.
It's a real pity about those bullocks. They are quality stock.
Mad as March hares.
But there might be a chance the others would quieten enough to feed in a shed without the lunatic amongst them.
Thanks everyone.
Will let you know how things go.
It's about time this kind of thing was dealt with severely.

whelan2

if you lodge a cheque you are told it takes up to 5 working days to clear. That said if i lodge a cheque from the same bank as mine its clear straight away.

LizzyOne

I thought five days to clear cheque as well!
Maybe its a case of who you know.
I think the mart has the same bank, not the same branch, as the uncle.

who the fug

oflynno wrote: »

little known fact,cattle go nuts for sliced pan bread!

if you bring a loaf with you as a treat they will go anywhere for it.

Remember one cow who expected her sliced pan to be buttered

Farmer Pudsey

LizzyOne wrote: »

I thought five days to clear cheque as well!
Maybe its a case of who you know.
I think the mart has the same bank, not the same branch, as the uncle.

No cheques can be cleared straight away if within same branch or if holder of cheque requests it to be cleared. This costs extra.

Brass Tag

Its not that unusual for some cattle to get seriously wild when their situation and surroundings change. Some individual cattle, lims in particular seem to react like this.
Buyers need to know and understand that. There may well be a bit of work and effort required to acclimatise some bought in cattle to their new surroundings and new owner / handler.
That said if course there are some lunatics which should never be brought to a mart or sold on under any circumstances! Only to Goodman!