EVERYTHING about HPAT and getting medicine

paperglue

I was also unlucky to miss out on a place in med this year, despite having 600 points. I think this exam is an unsuitable indication of how adequate a doctor will perform in their chosen field of medicine.i belive that this aptitude test should be seriously reconsidered with further thought by the dept of ed. The information provided on the introduction of the new system was not adequate in any form and many students were unsure of the ratio of Lc Points VS Hpat scores required to secure a place in medical school. Without careful planning the system was destined to fail. I fully understand and accept the need for certain screening processes for med school due to the numbers of doctors who are unable to relate to patients etc...but this system is neither fair nor just. We must also remember that many doctors go into the fields of research and even surgery- where people skills are not as important as in the case of gps and other doctors where communication and manner are extremely important.

tallaght01

paperglue wrote: »

I was also unlucky to miss out on a place in med this year, despite having 600 points. I think this exam is an unsuitable indication of how adequate a doctor will perform in their chosen field of medicine.i belive that this aptitude test should be seriously reconsidered with further thought by the dept of ed. The information provided on the introduction of the new system was not adequate in any form and many students were unsure of the ratio of Lc Points VS Hpat scores required to secure a place in medical school. Without careful planning the system was destined to fail. I fully understand and accept the need for certain screening processes for med school due to the numbers of doctors who are unable to relate to patients etc...but this system is neither fair nor just. We must also remember that many doctors go into the fields of research and even surgery- where people skills are not as important as in the case of gps and other doctors where communication and manner are extremely important.

I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the system when people who get 600 points can't get in. The medical profession will be a lot worse off for these decisions.

LemonsAndLimes

paperglue wrote: »

I was also unlucky to miss out on a place in med this year, despite having 600 points. I think this exam is an unsuitable indication of how adequate a doctor will perform in their chosen field of medicine.i belive that this aptitude test should be seriously reconsidered with further thought by the dept of ed. The information provided on the introduction of the new system was not adequate in any form and many students were unsure of the ratio of Lc Points VS Hpat scores required to secure a place in medical school. Without careful planning the system was destined to fail. I fully understand and accept the need for certain screening processes for med school due to the numbers of doctors who are unable to relate to patients etc...but this system is neither fair nor just. We must also remember that many doctors go into the fields of research and even surgery- where people skills are not as important as in the case of gps and other doctors where communication and manner are extremely important.

You are one of the few extremely unlucky ones who whilst achieving a perfect leaving score, missed out on medicine. However, it is a bold (and I believe untrue) statement to call the new system unjust. I don't understand how the ability to speak Irish or French has any impact at all on ones ability to perform as a doctor so why should it be taken into account? The system in Ireland is flawed and by bringing in the HPAT it has been made slightly fairer. The system in the UK is much better, where a medical candidate does an aptitude test (UKCAT or BMAT) first of all and is judged on their combined performance in the aptitude test and their previous exam results (AS level's and GCSE's) whether they are deserving of an interview at the university. Not only does this get rid of the 'talentless sloggers' but also the 'gifted but lazy'. You have no more reason to complain than someone with a high HPAT score but due to the inclusion of non-medical related subjects, missed out on a high leaving cert score. Also, I come from a school where very little attention is paid to CAO so I had to research everything HPAT related myself and found all of the appropriate information with relative ease, so its not the governments fault, its yours. This may sound pretty harsh but you might just have to accept that you're not cut out to be a doctor. Hopefully you'll bounce back and prove me wrong and there are certainly ways around the HPAT if you really want to be a doctor but its up to you now, you failed the system NOT the system failed you.

randylonghorn

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the system when people who get 600 points can't get in. The medical profession will be a lot worse off for these decisions.

Ok, tallaght, you've gone through the system and out the other side, survived and done well (sweaty leather chairs at interviews aside! :P).

Do you actually believe though that LC points on their own was a good way of predicting who would be good doctors ... or indeed who would even survive medical training?

600 LC points indicates someone who is bright, who works hard, who has a good memory, and (though I would argue to a lesser extent) someone with the ability to think things through ... all very important attributes for someone going into medicine I would certainly agree.

There's a lot more to being a doctor than that though; hell, there's a lot more to even surviving medical training than that.

Now, whether HPAT is an improvement in assessing candidates, I honestly don't know, as I've said several times in this thread.

But I've seen plenty of med students with 590 / 600 points wash out, or change direction soon after qualification, or end up staying in, but be ... poor enough doctors, tbh, with I suppose most often particular problems around doctor / patient interaction.

And I've consistently listened to medical students, qualified doctors, and even quite senior medical educators argue for years that the LC on its own was not a great indicator of who would make it.

Again, I stress that I have no idea whether HPAT is any improvement / addition.

But I'm surprised enough to see you appear to argue for the top LC points as the most important factor?

LemonsAndLimes wrote: »

... you failed the system NOT the system failed you.

That's overly harsh, tbh.

The new system is at best untried, at least in an Irish context, and it's pretty obvious there is a fair bit of disagreement as to whether it's an improvement or not.

JSK 252

I was just clearing out school stuff... LC notes etc.

Came across an Exambrief for the languages which were really helpful at the time.

Jaysus that NUIG medicine student talking about Irish is hot.:D
Really stunning.

If shes anything to go by then ye lads going up are going to have a field day!

whadabouchasir

JSK 252 wrote: »

If shes anything to go by then ye lads going up are going to have a field day!

unfortunately though the number of girls getting medicine has decreased this year so the ratio is much less favourable.still though,i suppose it's quality not quantity.

Stompbox

Just noticed I've been offered a six year course in RCSI as opposed to a five year. Anyone able to clarify why I have to do pre-med?

drrkpd

Sweet wrote: »

Just noticed I've been offered a six year course in RCSI as opposed to a five year. Anyone able to clarify why I have to do pre-med?

http://www2.cao.ie/otherinfo/2009UGMedEntry.pdf

Page 2 lists minimum matriculation requirements for RCSI and others. Must presume you don't have all that they need for the 5 year course but well done anyway. 6 years allows you to get used to college v LC and first clinical year anywhere is tough but you are doing what you want and with a class you now know-Enjoy it!

ANTONEDEROAST

Anyone know where I could see "National Top 20" in Med entries? i.e. HPAT+LC Results........If not what were the top points out there? I am not personally involved but have a passing interest in the subject.

UCCmed09

ANTONEDEROAST wrote: »

Anyone know where I could see "National Top 20" in Med entries? i.e. HPAT+LC Results........If not what were the top points out there? I am not personally involved but have a passing interest in the subject.

Some of that was in the Indo on offers day...but its hard to know the best overall combined scores...i think the highest HPAT result was 225....?correct me if i'm wrong!scores in the 180-190 range were roughly the 97th percentile if thats any help!

MedHead

For any people heading to NUIG to do the 5 year course check out the "NUIG Medicine Class of 2014" group on facebook!

Fad

Friend of mine got 590+208 in the HPAT, he got in! (TCD)

theowen

UCCmed09 wrote: »

Some of that was in the Indo on offers day...but its hard to know the best overall combined scores...i think the highest HPAT result was 225....?correct me if i'm wrong!scores in the 180-190 range were roughly the 97th percentile if thats any help!

Friend of a friend got 230 in the HPAT but only 470 in the leaving, ouch.

tallaght01

randylonghorn wrote: »

Ok, tallaght, you've gone through the system and out the other side, survived and done well (sweaty leather chairs at interviews aside! :P).

Do you actually believe though that LC points on their own was a good way of predicting who would be good doctors ... or indeed who would even survive medical training?

600 LC points indicates someone who is bright, who works hard, who has a good memory, and (though I would argue to a lesser extent) someone with the ability to think things through ... all very important attributes for someone going into medicine I would certainly agree.

There's a lot more to being a doctor than that though; hell, there's a lot more to even surviving medical training than that.

Now, whether HPAT is an improvement in assessing candidates, I honestly don't know, as I've said several times in this thread.

But I've seen plenty of med students with 590 / 600 points wash out, or change direction soon after qualification, or end up staying in, but be ... poor enough doctors, tbh, with I suppose most often particular problems around doctor / patient interaction.

And I've consistently listened to medical students, qualified doctors, and even quite senior medical educators argue for years that the LC on its own was not a great indicator of who would make it.

Again, I stress that I have no idea whether HPAT is any improvement / addition.

But I'm surprised enough to see you appear to argue for the top LC points as the most important factor?That's overly harsh, tbh.

The new system is at best untried, at least in an Irish context, and it's pretty obvious there is a fair bit of disagreement as to whether it's an improvement or not.

I think the most important skill a young potential doctor can show is a good work ethic, and ability to achieve a difficult goal that they've set for themselves.

Medical school will be like the leaving cert. The course material isn't complex enough that someone with a very good leaving cert couldn't cope. BUt there is shed loads of information to learn over a long period of time. Your recall needs to be good (sleep deprived at 4am you need to be able to recall all the causes of a low pulse rate there and then).

I think once you're getting over 550 points there's not much difference between the candidates. So, if someone with 550 way outscored someone with 600 points on the HPAT then I'd probably be OK with that.

But the difference between someone who has gotten 530 and someone who has 600 can be pretty stark. HPAT success shows that you're good at the HPAT. It's not some holy grail. It's never been shown to have any correlation with med school success.

I don't think it will give us a generation of docs with better interpersonal skills. That side of things is generally a myth. Doctors consistently come out on the top of polls asking which professions people trust most.Polls consistently show most people like their doctors. A medical school class of high achievers has roughly the same proportion of dickheads as I met in the general population before going to uni. Talk of clever people having no social skills is a myth largely perpetuated by people who aren't clever to make themselves feel better. It's also a result of some of these kids having locked themselves away for their teenage years studying. But most of them some out of their shell at college.

But medicine is about working hard consistently, and remembering a LOT of stuff. The best consultants tend to be the cleverest ones. Medicine has always attracted some seriously bright people, and this is for the good of the patients. I have no real problem with HPAT. But I do think there needs to be a rejig of it's weighted value when kids who work solidly for several years (at an age where it's easy to get sidetracked) and get results in the top 0.1% in the country can't get a place on a medicine course, but could easily go and do other health related courses with their results.

Mayoegian

Hi guys, sorry to butt in, but I'm doing the HPAT next year and I was just wondering, did ye have enough time to finish the questions? Also, would getting grinds, or a sample paper of the HPAT help me?

Thanks!:)

A Neurotic

tallaght01 wrote: »

But the difference between someone who has gotten 530 and someone who has 600 can be pretty stark.

I think you're defining people by their LC points a bit too much. Having done the LC this year and scored 555, I can see quite clearly that, having put in all the work I did, a lot of it came down to luck. Had one part of one paper gone differently, I'd probably have 570. Conversely, I could also easily have scored 530 or so. It disturbs me slightly that a number that (for me anyway) was, to a certain extent, the result of chance, could be used to define me.

Blur

Mayoegian wrote: »

Hi guys, sorry to butt in, but I'm doing the HPAT next year and I was just wondering, did ye have enough time to finish the questions? Also, would getting grinds, or a sample paper of the HPAT help me?

Thanks!:)

I had enough time to finish all the questions when I did it , but plenty of people (some of which did really well) didn't.The exam is designed to put you under time pressure. It's up do you do find a balance between giving each question enough time to answer correctly while still getting a majority of them done.

Don't think the grinds courses help, do a smaple paper though.

tallaght01

A Neurotic wrote: »

I think you're defining people by their LC points a bit too much. Having done the LC this year and scored 555, I can see quite clearly that, having put in all the work I did, a lot of it came down to luck. Had one part of one paper gone differently, I'd probably have 570. Conversely, I could also easily have scored 530 or so. It disturbs me slightly that a number that (for me anyway) was, to a certain extent, the result of chance, could be used to define me.

I disagree for a couple of reasons. But mostly for the reason that you're looking at the individual situation. As a rule, the really bright kids do very well at med school. The higher the leaving cert, the better they tend to do in the medical course.

Obviously there are exceptions. But y and large, the more clever you are and the more you work, the better your grades. I'd argue that there's a lot less luck involved at that end of the spectrum than you're implying. I don't think we should base policy on the odd unusual case.

There will always be outliers to the rule.

But, at the end of the day....leaving cert tests work ethic AND intelligence, whereas HPAT tests intelligence.

A bright doc is no use to us if they don't work their balls off.

If I were in your shoes I'd have felt cheated at not getting a place at med school (if you'd applied) because of an exam that's not show to correlate with med school success.

That's not defining people by their LC. It's looking at the effort and intelligence a good LC represents, and encouraging those people into the profession.

UCCmed09

theowen wrote: »

Friend of a friend got 230 in the HPAT but only 470 in the leaving, ouch.

wow and was that the highest hpat in the country?incredible!

essdee

Mayoegian wrote: »

Hi guys, sorry to butt in, but I'm doing the HPAT next year and I was just wondering, did ye have enough time to finish the questions? Also, would getting grinds, or a sample paper of the HPAT help me?

Thanks!:)

Tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd Aug) on Inside Education at 7:30 p.m. I will feature a 20 minute interview with a representative of HPAT to find out some more about the test and how to prepare for it. In the Dublin area you can hear it on 103.2 FM and elsewhere it is streamed live on www.dublincityfm.ie. Afterwards the podcast will be on www.insideed.com.

Piste

Mayoegian wrote: »

Hi guys, sorry to butt in, but I'm doing the HPAT next year and I was just wondering, did ye have enough time to finish the questions? Also, would getting grinds, or a sample paper of the HPAT help me?

Thanks!:)

I definitely found the sample paper you can buy from the HPAT website helped, but be warned, it is much easier than the real thing, so while it will help you get used to the types of questions asked, it probably wont be an accurate reflection of how you'll do (I scored about 100 points less in the real thing).

I just about got section 1 finished, had loads of time left for section 2 and guessed the last 7 or so questions of section 3.

UCCmed09

Mayoegian wrote: »

Hi guys, sorry to butt in, but I'm doing the HPAT next year and I was just wondering, did ye have enough time to finish the questions? Also, would getting grinds, or a sample paper of the HPAT help me?

Thanks!:)

i agree with the others...the sample paper we got was the best prep IMO!and i also agree that my score was much higher in that than in the real one...but i've heard that they fiddle the results or something to standardise it for the coming years...so they mightnt have been our actual scores...i dont really get it+dont know if there's any truth in it!middle section yeah is def the easiest time-wise...even painstakingly reading everything thoroughly you have heaps of time left over!i found the last section was the toughest to get through within the time limit but i actually managed it on the day thank god...but that didnt seem to be the general result for most people around me afterwards so i wouldnt worry about it!the first is prob the toughest to stay concentrated for and you've just about got enough time to squeeze it in!

Acid_Violet

As a friend of mine said about the grinds for the Hpat; ''The people silly enough to pay €350 to do a grinds course for an APTITUDE test should be the first to be ruled out of doing medicine.''

The people I know who scored the highest in the Hpat didn't do a grinds course for it.

ANTONEDEROAST

UCCmed09 wrote: »

Some of that was in the Indo on offers day...but its hard to know the best overall combined scores...i think the highest HPAT result was 225....?correct me if i'm wrong!scores in the 180-190 range were roughly the 97th percentile if thats any help!

....Thanks for your response. Sincerest best wishes in UCCmed09...A de R

A Neurotic

tallaght01 wrote: »

I disagree for a couple of reasons. But mostly for the reason that you're looking at the individual situation. As a rule, the really bright kids do very well at med school. The higher the leaving cert, the better they tend to do in the medical course.

Obviously there are exceptions. But y and large, the more clever you are and the more you work, the better your grades. I'd argue that there's a lot less luck involved at that end of the spectrum than you're implying. I don't think we should base policy on the odd unusual case.

There will always be outliers to the rule.

But, at the end of the day....leaving cert tests work ethic AND intelligence, whereas HPAT tests intelligence.

A bright doc is no use to us if they don't work their balls off.

If I were in your shoes I'd have felt cheated at not getting a place at med school (if you'd applied) because of an exam that's not show to correlate with med school success.

That's not defining people by their LC. It's looking at the effort and intelligence a good LC represents, and encouraging those people into the profession.

I know I used a very specific example in myself, but I don't think that my case is in any way exceptional. After any paper of the Leaving Cert, the things you'll hear most often are "I'm so delighted/raging X came up", etc. I'm just making the point that, in my opinion, the LC is a test of work ethic and intelligence, but that luck comes into it too. As such, I don't think that it's fair to consider 550+ pointers a different breed to those with lower points (to a certain extent of course).

Maybe I am the exception though. I presumed that the majority would feel the same way as me. Do any other LCers feel that chance was a factor in their score?

UCCmed09

A Neurotic wrote: »

Maybe I am the exception though. I presumed that the majority would feel the same way as me. Do any other LCers feel that chance was a factor in their score?

I totally agree..luck plays its part for everyone..the only people who choose to deny that are those that GOT lucky lol...all of a sudden then its 100% merit!

whadabouchasir

A Neurotic wrote: »

Do any other LCers feel that chance was a factor in their score?

I think that luck playsa much bigger part in the hpat though.Just 4 or 5 questions could make all the difference since there are only 110 questions and such a narrow range.At least in the LC you can't really get a question right by a complete guess,whereas in the hpat,you can.i think the the Hpat should be made much longer and include more questions to reduce the effects of guesswork.

dobh

I am new to posting so I may be in the wrong place for this question. The only way I could see to " get in " was via a reply so I apologise now if this is not a good plan.

Anyway my question is, does anybody know the scores for the percentiles in the hpat. eg what score is the 60th percentile, or 55th or any other one for that matter. Just curious.

I dont know if there is any place to find out this information.

Thank you.

dobh

dobh wrote: »

I am new to posting so I may be in the wrong place for this question. The only way I could see to " get in " was via a reply so I apologise now if this is not a good plan.

Anyway my question is, does anybody know the scores for the percentiles in the hpat. eg what score is the 60th percentile, or 55th or any other one for that matter. Just curious.

I dont know if there is any place to find out this information.

Thank you.

As far as I know, the information wasn't, nor will it be, released to the public.

UCCmed09

dobh wrote: »

I am new to posting so I may be in the wrong place for this question. The only way I could see to " get in " was via a reply so I apologise now if this is not a good plan.

Anyway my question is, does anybody know the scores for the percentiles in the hpat. eg what score is the 60th percentile, or 55th or any other one for that matter. Just curious.

I dont know if there is any place to find out this information.

Thank you.

well 192 was 96th percentile..and so were scores in the 180s i hear!approx 157 was 57th percentile!