Music: The build up and the aftermath

Fluorescence

tootyflutty: I was told by my teacher not to use iii or vii' even though I knew how? She told us they were forbidden in the leaving cert

tootyflutty

They're not forbidden, well not in the marking schemes anyway. And some of us used them in the mocks and got our extra marks for best progressions. I would always be a bit wary of iii, but vii is a nice chord to use, when used right.
I suppose it's up to the person and the melody of course

Fluorescence

Yeah vii'b usually works quite nicely in minor keys... Still, I think I'll check the marking scheme before I use iii or vii' just in case :P I'm so paranoid :pac:

mikeglee

I can't actually do the composing paper

tootyflutty

mikeglee, well you can still pass with your practical and listening paper :P

Gzus

Dont worry about it mike.

Twinkle-star15

mikeglee wrote: »

I can't actually do the composing paper

There's a formula for it.
First 4 bars= given
Bars 5-6= development of given phrase
Bars 7-8= modulation
Bars 9-10= sequence
Bars 11-12= imperfect cadence
Bars 13-14= development of given phrase
Bars 15-16= perfect cadence

Development means changing it round a little eg doh mi becomes doh re mi, doh mi soh, mi doh, re mi, doh so, etc, and 2 crotchets become 1 crotchet, 2 quavers, 4 quavers, dotted crotchet and quaver, etc.

Tootyflutty, you don't lose any marks for not using those chords though, right? We were just told to avoid them!

Crocodilius

What's the formula for a minor key? I think i know how to identify them (look for an accidental on the 7th note of the scale in the given melody, yes?)

Since you don't modulate, should you just use bar 7-8 as a further development of bars3-4?

P.S. i think it always says "include a modulation to the dominant at a suitable point" above the question if it's in a major key. Is this true or just me jumping the gun?

tootyflutty

Twinkle-star15 wrote: »

Tootyflutty, you don't lose any marks for not using those chords though, right? We were just told to avoid them!

No but you might not get full marks in a perfectly fine melody. There is a certain amount of marks allocated towards "best possible progressions" it's not much though so I wouldn't worry about. It's just like when you write and English essay or something, you get a couple extra marks thrown your way for good flow and coherence. :pac:

tazbars

im a seriously weak student but need to get some sort of C, did a good enough practical but DREADING the paper. Any advice on what to study for the set works? ive no idea what to study and had an extremely unhelpful teacher.

tootyflutty

Just know some basic stuff for each piece if you want a C, you shouldn't need too much detail.
Our teacher told us she has only ever had 2 students that got less than a B3, one was very weak in the practical and got a C1 over all, and the other took up music in 6th yr and didn't come to school, and still got a C3. If they can get C's, I think you should be ok!

For Mozart and Berlioz know how to recognise each of the sections. They are very different so shouldn't be too difficult.
Know things like the swirling triplets, alberti bass, and basic instrumentation for each. Be able to recognise the recurring theme also in all pieces.
And also the key signatures!
For Deane know the instruments, the totentanz theme, dies irae, three note cell and addition and subtraction principals. Just a couple or both instrumental and compositional techniques too.
As for Beatles, try not to sing along with the songs and answer the questions tehe. Eh you don't exactly need to know chords or anything, but you might need to know they are mixolydian (sp?). You should learn the genre and rough instrumntes of each. Compositional techniques for each song too eg. word painting.

It's sounds alot, but that should be enough to get you at least a high c I reckon :P

mikeglee

What do i need to know to get a c1?

tootyflutty

mikeglee wrote: »

What do i need to know to get a c1?

read what I wrote above :P

hellother

Whats the rules for modulation again!! like what chords do u use i completely forget!! ahh!!!:eek:

tootyflutty

the following modulate to the key below

c d e f g a b
l l l l l l l
g a b c d e f

with the 7th note in the new key is sharpened/flattened/naturalled.

always finish on the tonic of the new chord, and start the next line in the first bar with the chord of i again

hellother

thanks so much, is there any chance you could give me an example....yeah im stooopid!
like just say you were in the key of C major...lets make it simple here:p...and you wanted to do modulation as it usually is in bar 7-8.
what chords would you use? do you go to the dominant?

sorry!

evolving_doors

Hi Helloother..memorize tootyflutie's chart..

For sharp keys
C-Goes to-G
D-A
E-B
F-C
G-D
A-E

For flat keys (which came up 7 times in the last 8 years!!!!)
F-C
Bb-F
Eb-Bb
Ab-Eb
(For all the flat keys the accidental will be a natural...so in bar 7 you should have an accidental somewhere.)

For Minor keys you dont have to modulate (you'll know it's minor as there'll be acidentals in the given phrase and the question wont ask you to modulate)

Example

if you are in C then you modulate to it's dominant of G in bars 7-8

The best way of showing that your changing key is a perfect cadence in the new key..

So whats a perfect cadence in the new key of G?

V-I in the key of G

Bar 7=Notes from the chord V (D F# A)
Bar 8= New tonic

---

G

evolving_doors

tootyflutty wrote: »

Twinkle-star15 your list of progressions are really good, but there are extra marks for the best progressions.
So in some cases you can use iii and also vii.
So you could have ib - viib - i, to get those extras.

tootyflutty,
iii and vii are Not on the syllabus so therefore are not a requirement.
To be fair to students who don't use them or havn't studied them, the examiners can't give "extra" marks if you put them in.
So in all cases the harmony question has to be designed in such a way that the normal chords will fit.

I reckon you wouldn't be docked any marks though but defo not extra marks.

tootyflutty

Armelodie wrote: »

I reckon you wouldn't be docked any marks though but defo not extra marks.

You won't lose marks, but there are marks given for best progressions, and sometimes that includes viib or whatever the chord :P
Like using v7d sometimes instead of v. Not a necessity but it sometimes gives a nice counter melody in the bass.

tazbars

tootyflutty wrote: »

Just know some basic stuff for each piece if you want a C, you shouldn't need too much detail.
Our teacher told us she has only ever had 2 students that got less than a B3, one was very weak in the practical and got a C1 over all, and the other took up music in 6th yr and didn't come to school, and still got a C3. If they can get C's, I think you should be ok!

For Mozart and Berlioz know how to recognise each of the sections. They are very different so shouldn't be too difficult.
Know things like the swirling triplets, alberti bass, and basic instrumentation for each. Be able to recognise the recurring theme also in all pieces.
And also the key signatures!
For Deane know the instruments, the totentanz theme, dies irae, three note cell and addition and subtraction principals. Just a couple or both instrumental and compositional techniques too.
As for Beatles, try not to sing along with the songs and answer the questions tehe. Eh you don't exactly need to know chords or anything, but you might need to know they are mixolydian (sp?). You should learn the genre and rough instrumntes of each. Compositional techniques for each song too eg. word painting.

It's sounds alot, but that should be enough to get you at least a high c I reckon :P

thanks a million that is so helpful....but what are swirling triplets?!

Piste

God I hate the composition paper

If you modulate in bars 7-8 do you keep in the dominant in the third phrase and only modulate back to the tonic in the fourth or do you modulate back at the end of the 3rd phrase?

We weren't taught any formulas and tricks like that, I don't think our teacher really realised it was more difficult for us to hear the melody in our heads =/

Saffy

Music is the only subject that I am capable of an A in and if I don't get it I'll be so disappointed!:(

I really don't know how my practical went - I know I didn't completely mess it up but I could have done much much better!

I'm pretty okay at the composing paper but I'm ****ed for the listening paper:(

tootyflutty

tazbars wrote: »

thanks a million that is so helpful....but what are swirling triplets?!

the swirling triplets are in Berlioz, played on cello's and bass's, they have a sort of rising and falling sequence/melody in triplets that sounds swirling-ish :P
Working from memory here so that could be wrong lol

xOxSinéadxOx

my practical went **** so I've given up at this stage. only bit I find easy is the composition paper. the other paper is just wtf for me? haven't a clue about seachanges or mozart or anyway of it. hate it all

evolving_doors

tootyflutty wrote: »

You won't lose marks, but there are marks given for best progressions, and sometimes that includes viib or whatever the chord :P
Like using v7d sometimes instead of v. Not a necessity but it sometimes gives a nice counter melody in the bass.

The examiner will have worked solutions which are part of the standard progressions for the required chords as set out in the syllabus...therefore...you'll get the marks you deserve.No more no less.

If you use V7d, iii or neopolitan 6th's,wierd augmented or whatever, you wont loose marks(assuming you treat them correctly)..but you wont get any extra marks either..as this wouldn't be fair to those that are taught according to what is required from the syllabus..

mikeglee

I havn't a clue what a lot of you are talking about (no offense) which leads me to believe that I am so dead for composing

tootyflutty

Ok, just to clarify I'll show you the marks as taken from the marking scheme.

Question 5

Chords
- 1 mark that is part of a good progression in chord boxes = 23
- quality of musical progressions and cadences overall = 13

Bass
- 0.5 mark for every correct bass note under each correct chord symbol
- quality of bass line, including sense of musicality, awareness of style and technical knowledge = 13

Equals to 60 marks overall.

As I said before the 13 marks in both questions, will go for good progressions and musicality, which can include inversions and vii chords. They are included on the syllabus but are not a necessity.

Dr Gradus

My practical went well enough but had a rubbish music teacher who made it so that wirh 4 days too i will probaly still do atrociously in the melody writing and harmony questions. A shame really cause i quite like the subject.

Dante

Grrrrrr can't remember how to do anything!

tootyflutty

Just listen to the set works a couple of times, then get some old papers for the composing and try them.
You might be able to get them on examinations.ie