Your Views On The BNP

K-9

markopantelic wrote: »

Thats exactly what I've been trying to say on this thread for ages, but couldn't use the right words. SF's casual demographic would probably be a lot like the BNP's in UK.

In the North they seem pretty aware, like many irish nationalist estates have anti-racism murals for example but in Dublin from my experience with people in school who would say they are Sinn Féin supporters are mainy concrentrated on the 'Tiocfaidh ar la' 'hate the brits' mentality rather than what the party stands for overall.

*sorry for the wording, i can't actually explain what i mean properly, but hopefully you'll get what im getting at*

Exactly, I think in the ROI SF are seen often as a protest vote, but are now seen as a serious political party in NI. Obviously there are different reasons for that. Whether SF can get over that image is entirely up to SF, not anybody else or any conspiracy theories. They have to figure this one out for themselves!

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Ah ok, I see your point a bit more clearly now.
Yeah it's true SF unfortunately does still attract a few....undesireables we'll call them. Idiots who still have an "UP THE 'RA" mentality. But the majority of SF supporters do not fall into that category, and I think it's unfair to compare them with BNP supporters. Most SF supporters do not subscribe to the racist, anti-immigrant attitudes that all BNP followers would go by.

You might have a basis for comparing BNP supporters with RSF suporters, who do have that "UP THE 'RA" attitude.

Exactly, I did clarify that a certain type of supporter does follow them. They have to get past that stereotype in the ROI before they can surpass FF/FG/Labour and be considered an acceptable top 3 party.

KnifeWRENCH

K-9 wrote: »

Exactly, I did clarify that a certain type of supporter does follow them. They have to get past that stereotype in the ROI before they can surpass FF/FG/Labour and be considered an acceptable top 3 party.

I think SF have done as much as they can to try and defeat that stereotype. Unfortunately some people will continue to be firmly against them. I personally would like to see SF in government.

Dankoozy

The BNP seem to be the only party with a bit of good old fashioned common sense in their head. no more political correctness, they are dead right about the whole peak oil thing they posted on their site. I wish these guys set up an irish chapter so I could vote for them. No SF doesn't count.

One day I remember this old lad on the radio saying he loved the BNP, said their policies appealed to him but when asked which ones he said he forgot. it made me lol

nitrogen

I don't have time to read through seventeen pages to see if it has been mentioned but here is Charlie Brooker's excellent column on the racist c%nts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/18/charlie-brooker-bnp-racism

Bottle_of_Smoke

Found out a while back my flatmate's in the BNP.

He just doesn't want his culture to be wiped out and just feels other ethnicities don't belong here. As much as I disagree I can understand to an extent.

I believe him when he says he doesn't believe whites are superior. I reckon he's just one of the ones who's against mass immigration but isn't into "twatting pakys" and the like.

RaverRo808

The British government and US government openly advocated murder but not in those words,sending thousands of solidiers to Iraq and Afganistan to butchering extremely poor impoverished vunrable people who were scapegoated for being 'terrorists',even though they havent rocks to throw,the BNP should be proud of a government like that

CiaranC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Found out a while back my flatmate's in the BNP.

He just doesn't want his culture to be wiped out and just feels other ethnicities don't belong here. As much as I disagree I can understand to an extent.

I believe him when he says he doesn't believe whites are superior. I reckon he's just one of the ones who's against mass immigration but isn't into "twatting pakys" and the like.

You should suffocate him in his sleep and dump his body in Landfill, do the lad a favour

RaverRo808

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Found out a while back my flatmate's in the BNP.

He just doesn't want his culture to be wiped out and just feels other ethnicities don't belong here. As much as I disagree I can understand to an extent.

I believe him when he says he doesn't believe whites are superior. I reckon he's just one of the ones who's against mass immigration but isn't into "twatting pakys" and the like.

You should become a muslim,just to p*ss him off

getz

RaverRo808 wrote: »

The British government and US government openly advocated murder but not in those words,sending thousands of solidiers to Iraq and Afganistan to butchering extremely poor impoverished vunrable people who were scapegoated for being 'terrorists',even though they havent rocks to throw,the BNP should be proud of a government like that

why do you keep on trying to throw your ant /brit rantings on every thread ? -it is not clever-and most people in ireland just want to move on-if the moderator wants to ban me -so be it

Fratton Fred

RaverRo808 wrote: »

The British government and US government openly advocated murder but not in those words,sending thousands of solidiers to Iraq and Afganistan to butchering extremely poor impoverished vunrable people who were scapegoated for being 'terrorists',even though they havent rocks to throw,the BNP should be proud of a government like that

That is why i would compare SF/RSF supporters to BNP supporters.

The same ****e is realed off as if it verbatim. No thought or logic, just brain washed idealology.

O'Coonassa

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

Nationalism comes about for different reasons.

It comes about because we've been acting the ape for the past 6 million years. It has been able to grow because of the collectivism of tribalism and clannishness that arises from the collectivism of the band that arises from that of the troop.

It has been manufactured by elites to their own advantage and they could never have done this were it not for the ape instinct for the collective of the in-group.

O'Coonassa

RaverRo808 wrote: »

The British government and US government openly advocated murder but not in those words,sending thousands of solidiers to Iraq and Afganistan to butchering extremely poor impoverished vunrable people who were scapegoated for being 'terrorists',even though they havent rocks to throw

So then are you proud of Óglaigh na h-Eireann being in Afghanistan? Or are you a traitor to your nation? <snortle>

Joey the lips

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is why i would compare SF/RSF supporters to BNP supporters.

The same ****e is realed off as if it verbatim. No thought or logic, just brain washed idealology.

I do think you should start a " I hate sinn fein thread, who supports me!" at least all will have the stupid posts in one thread and you can get free counseling on your grief. It get so boreing and lame I have stopped commenting or contributing information on it.

Fratton Fred

Joey the lips wrote: »

I do think you should start a " I hate sinn fein thread, who supports me!" at least all will have the stupid posts in one thread and you can get free counseling on your grief. It get so boreing and lame I have stopped commenting or contributing information on it.

I don't hate Sinn Fein, just certain members and certain supporters.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, there are a lot of Sinn Fein policies that are good intentioned, if not that well thought through.

However, whilst the now accepted policies of Sinn fein are personally more acceptable to me, there is distinct similarities between their supporters and the BNP's. For example, the accusation that anyone who does not support them is less British/less Irish than they are, or the mindless, ill thought out rants which disclose someones true feelings.

O'Coonassa

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

He just doesn't want his culture to be wiped out

This is interesting because it cuts to the roots of the whole falsity of nationalism. What culture does he mean?

RaverRo808

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is why i would compare SF/RSF supporters to BNP supporters.

The same ****e is realed off as if it verbatim. No thought or logic, just brain washed idealology.

Have you ever spoken to any PSF or RSF members(not wannabes eejits in Celtic jerseys who claim to be),the whole republican ideaology is not about 'anti-Britishness',or any sort of extreme racist or supremacist sentiment like the BNP espouse,it is the idea to establish a sovereign independent Republic that encompasses the entire 32 counties under a socialist system of government,that promotes Irish culture and tradition,and caters for all its citizens regardless of race/creed/releigion,republicans have no time for nazism or any sort of extreme race hate crap,its quite the opposite,but republicans base their ideaology on an issue that is very much real,factual and can be seen to believe,Britain does forcibly occupy this country and theres no spin that can deny that fact,they have militarised the 6 counties and deny the Irish people their fundemental right to sovreignty,the BNP base their beliefs on irrational fears that people of different colour and religion are to blame for societies ills,absolutely no similarities to Irish republicans in my opinion

Joey the lips

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't hate Sinn Fein, just certain members and certain supporters.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, there are a lot of Sinn Fein policies that are good intentioned, if not that well thought through.

However, whilst the now accepted policies of Sinn fein are personally more acceptable to me, there is distinct similarities between their supporters and the BNP's. For example, the accusation that anyone who does not support them is less British/less Irish than they are, or the mindless, ill thought out rants which disclose someones true feelings.

More ranting on sinn fein I see, Who are you trying to convince yourself or me! So your now implying that sinn feins jist is if you dont support us your not irish! Daft! Its never sinn fein supporters from what I see that bring sinn fein into arguements its daftness and stupid comparrisions that do!

There is no similarities between sinn fein F/Fail or Labour supporters or BNP Supporters except the fact that they all have a nationalist working class backround but comparing these is like compareing labour and the Socialist nationalist party of germany or the Nazi party! The same name the same meaning but a total different idology.

So you see it does not matter if you agree with SF policies its clear your not an SF Supporter.

The BNP has NOTING to do with irish politics but give it 5 years and the amount or racisism in ireland will change that!

RaverRo808

O'Coonassa wrote: »

So then are you proud of Óglaigh na h-Eireann being in Afghanistan? Or are you a traitor to your nation? <snortle>

Oglaigh na h-Eireann,I assume you mean the Defence Forces,I wasnt aware they were present in Iraq,and no Im no traitor to my nation

O'Coonassa

RaverRo808 wrote: »

Oglaigh na h-Eireann,I assume you mean the Defence Forces,I wasnt aware they were present in Iraq,and no Im no traitor to my nation

I asked if you were proud of your nation for being in Afghanistan? They're there under the command of a "British" officer AFAIK.

Fratton Fred

RaverRo808 wrote: »

Have you ever spoken to any PSF or RSF members(not wannabes eejits in Celtic jerseys who claim to be),the whole republican ideaology is not about 'anti-Britishness',or any sort of extreme racist or supremacist sentiment like the BNP espouse,it is the idea to establish a sovereign independent Republic that encompasses the entire 32 counties under a socialist system of government,that promotes Irish culture and tradition,and caters for all its citizens regardless of race/creed/releigion,republicans have no time for nazism or any sort of extreme race hate crap,its quite the opposite,but republicans base their ideaology on an issue that is very much real,factual and can be seen to believe,Britain does forcibly occupy this country and theres no spin that can deny that fact,they have militarised the 6 counties and deny the Irish people their fundemental right to sovreignty,the BNP base their beliefs on irrational fears that people of different colour and religion are to blame for societies ills,absolutely no similarities to Irish republicans in my opinion

I'm not comparing policies, it is the rhetoric than I find similar.

How about telling me what you believe, not what Republicans are supposed to believe. What if someone does not 100% agree with you, are they less of a republican than you?

RaverRo808

O'Coonassa wrote: »

I asked if you were proud of your nation for being in Afghanistan? They're there under the command of a "British" officer AFAIK.

They dont represent me,I hold little or no regard for them,so I dont really care about them,I wouldnt call them Oglaigh na hEireann,they dont deserve that status,but if they are present in Afganistan,they shouldnt be present there,I dont agree with militant occupation of any country

Fratton Fred

RaverRo808 wrote: »

I dont agree with militant occupation of any country

which is why the UN, at the request of the Afghan government, is trying to prevent the taliban from miltantly occupying Afghanistan.

So therefore, we can presume you do support ISAF and their mission in that country.

asdasd

This is interesting because it cuts to the roots of the whole falsity of nationalism. What culture does he mean?

The, um, culture he was brought up in, and his ancestors have had for generations. This identity is core to humans. We are not shopping, drinking, sex machines, nor are we communitarian on other fake ideologicial identities like "working class solidarity", or the Human Race. We are communitarion on shared historical cultural, lingusitic, and legal grounds.

So strong is this feeling, so innate and natural, it doesnt need the philosophers. John Gray in his recent brilliant collection wrote about how , on picking up a book on philiosophy, he read continual chapters on failed leftist thought - like communism - and anything else created in the academy no matter how unliveable. On nationalism, nothing. On religion, very little. The two major forces in actual human identiy are ignored, and the belief systems of isolated alienated academics overempahised. This is mere intellectual mastrubation, and a Western one at that. It is also in it's way, tribal, though this tribe is unnatural, and divorced from the other tribes that surround them.

Nationalism is so innate that you can't actually create multi-national States without seperatist movements, or breakups. You cant even re-create people's identities by trying to create seperate nationalisms. That doesnt work either.

There are countless examples, but to list some.

1) Yugoslavia - 40 years of authorian/totalitarian governments telling people they were Yugoslavian, "constructing" Yugoslavia, "constructing" Yugoslavian identies, national teams, a new culture. Controlling the TV, the educations system, the media. Once the dictatorship ends, the old nationalisms re-emerge. Surely if nationalism is "constructed", there would be no seperatist movements.
2) The United Kingdom. One of the most sucessful unions of multi-national states in the world, centre of a previous world empire. Has 5 seperatist movements, and two pan British nationalist movements ( opposed to the EU). They are the English Democrats, Plyd Cmyru, The SNP, Sinn Fein, and a small cornish nationalist movement on one side, and the BNP and the UKIP on t'other.
3) The Kurds in Iraq. Saddam tried to create a national State out of three distinct tribal groups - two ethno-religious groups ( sunnin and shia), and one ethnic group - the Kurds. He controlled the media, the educations system etc. Kurds were gassed. They still remained Kurds. They prefered to die rather than be considered Iraqi.

Not why would people do this, put their lives on line, were national and ethnic identity not the foremost driver of humans?

As for the anti-nationalist ideology. The supposed solution, a univeralism, is by and large itself nationalist/tribal ( since everybody is). What language will be official in the One World Government? What laws will we have? Sharia? French? Napoleonic? What is the situation for homosexuals? I would say it should be illegal, were we to have a democratic one world government. Because, in most countries, it is. The "universalist" would say it should be legal, because of human rights. That concept is tribal in and of itself, it is a form of western tribalism.

Nation States arose with democracy and are the most stable political forms we have. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

this isn't to support extreme nationalism, and certainly not to close the borders - it is a rebuttal of the undergraduate **** from certain posters about how we are all one people, and we don't belong to anywhere in particular. The people posting that are not posting from Nigeria, or Siberia after all. They are posting from their homeland. easy to be universalistic there, since you would have no idea how different the rest of the world is.

O'Coonassa

RaverRo808 wrote: »

They dont represent me

Well they don't represent me because as I've been saying on this thread I think the nationalist collective is a load of bollocks and I don't subscribe to it.

Surely you though, if you're an Irish Nationalist as you claim, have to accept responsibility because they fly the flag you're so very proud of and were sent there by the nation you're so prideful of. All British nationalists, French nationalists etc are very proud of 'their boys'.

RaverRo808

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not comparing policies, it is the rhetoric than I find similar.

How about telling me what you believe, not what Republicans are supposed to believe. What if someone does not 100% agree with you, are they less of a republican than you?

As a republican I believe there are fundemental doctrines that should be followed and cant be twisted or changed,but Im not a fanatic or a facist,Im sure if you met me,you'd find Im a nice bloke who gets on well with everyone,I just have my views and Im not ashamed of them

RaverRo808

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Well they don't represent me because as I've been saying on this thread I think the nationalist collective is a load of bollocks and I don't subscribe to it.

Surely you though, if you're an Irish Nationalist as you claim, have to accept responsibility because they fly the flag you're so very proud of and were sent there by the nation you're so prideful of. All British nationalists, French nationalists etc are very proud of 'their boys'.

No your not getting me,I dont recognise the Irish Defence forces as the official army to represent Ireland,therefore I dont hold any regard for them or what they do,If they were any sort of Irish army they would have been up North during the troubles when the British Army,RUC and Loyalist militias were burning fellow Irish people from their homes and interning them without trial,instead they sat there and watched,the IRA is Ireland real army in my view,this state and its army may fly the flag,but that doesnt mean they represent it

Fratton Fred

RaverRo808 wrote: »

As a republican I believe there are fundemental doctrines that should be followed and cant be twisted or changed,but Im not a fanatic or a facist,Im sure if you met me,you'd find Im a nice bloke who gets on well with everyone,I just have my views and Im not ashamed of them

I have absolutely no doubt about that, I would hazrd a guess and say we are probably not too dissimilar.

i don't follow any one particular political policy or party, in fact i have a pretty low opinion of most political parties, both sides of the Irish sea.

I grew up in a time when the NF were getting very strong in my area and they were actively canvassing around the local schools. I took a look at what they were saying (Usually wheeling out an old boy who "Didn't fight in the war for all these wogs to invade our country"). I found this abhorrant so I
turned the opposite way and started attending SWP meetings and took an active part in AFA demonstrations. However, I found this lot to be just as thick and brainwashed as the NF.

When I hear a lot (certainly not all) Shinners talk they do remind me to an extend of those SWP/BNP extremisits and that is why i compare them. The message is different, but the way it is said is the same.

RaverRo808

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I have absolutely no doubt about that, I would hazrd a guess and say we are probably not too dissimilar.

i don't follow any one particular political policy or party, in fact i have a pretty low opinion of most political parties, both sides of the Irish sea.

I grew up in a time when the NF were getting very strong in my area and they were actively canvassing around the local schools. I took a look at what they were saying (Usually wheeling out an old boy who "Didn't fight in the war for all these wogs to invade our country"). I found this abhorrant so I
turned the opposite way and started attending SWP meetings and took an active part in AFA demonstrations. However, I found this lot to be just as thick and brainwashed as the NF.

When I hear a lot (certainly not all) Shinners talk they do remind me to an extend of those SWP/BNP extremisits and that is why i compare them. The message is different, but the way it is said is the same.

Well Im in agreement with you there,obviously you are older then me,and I have to respect that with age there is wisdom,I am well aware of NFs history and how they exploited the youth of England when times were hard,blaming immigrants on societies woes,I myself was of the opinion that Sinn Fein was the be and end all at one stage,but time shows that they are just the same as Fianna Fail at the end of the day,Im still a republican but I keep an open mind on things now

O'Coonassa

asdasd wrote: »

The, um, culture he was brought up in, and his ancestors have had for generations. This identity is core to humans. We are not shopping, drinking, sex machines, nor are we communitarian on other fake ideologicial identities like "working class solidarity", or the Human Race. We are communitarion on shared historical cultural, lingusitic, and legal grounds.

But his ancestors have not at all had the culture he was brought up in for generations, and nor has there been any one single culture or ethnicity on this island ever at all. Nationalism pretends that this is not the case, that there is some sort of fixed monoculture and ethnic monolith and that all others must bow down to it. It is this that constitutes the fake identity.

asdasd wrote: »

Nationalism is so innate....

Not why would people do this, put their lives on line, were national and ethnic identity not the foremost driver of humans?

Ethnicity is not the same as nationalism. A supposed shared ethnicity is what has been manipulated by the powerful to create nations in Europe and elsewhere but look at Africa. Somewhere like Chad has around 200 different ethnicities and cultures. Right across that continent every single nation is a forced and forged thing, indeed this is one of the reasons Africa has such problems with it's development.

asdasd wrote: »

As for the anti-nationalist ideology. The supposed solution, a univeralism, is by and large itself nationalist/tribal ( since everybody is). What language will be official in the One World Government? What laws will we have? Sharia? French? Napoleonic? What is the situation for homosexuals? I would say it should be illegal, were we to have a democratic one world government. Because, in most countries, it is. The "universalist" would say it should be legal, because of human rights. That concept is tribal in and of itself, it is a form of western tribalism.

I cannot see the logic of suggesting that universalism is nationalist. Tribalism arises from shared ethnicity which itself rests largely on the perception of shared genetic material. This is where the ugliness of geno-cide springs from.

asdasd wrote: »

Nation States arose with democracy and are the most stable political forms we have. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

As I say look at Africa and see if you can honestly repeat your assertion

asdasd wrote: »

this isn't to support extreme nationalism, and certainly not to close the borders - it is a rebuttal of the undergraduate **** from certain posters about how we are all one people, and we don't belong to anywhere in particular. The people posting that are not posting from Nigeria, or Siberia after all. They are posting from their homeland. easy to be universalistic there, since you would have no idea how different the rest of the world is.

Oh but I do and the only real difference between humans arises from the different amounts of eduction, money and resources that they have at hand. I can sit with poor tribal peoples out in the sticks and the way they all think and behave is extremely similar. Likewise I can sit with educated peoples who have relatively good incomes in towns and cities and they're like I am to a very large extent. Certainly far more similar than dissimilar and the closer to where I was born the truer this becomes up until the point that in western Europe there is no difference at all to speak of apart from pretended ones that have been handed down by the traditions of dead men.

O'Coonassa

RaverRo808 wrote: »

No your not getting me,I dont recognise the Irish Defence forces as the official army to represent Ireland,therefore I dont hold any regard for them or what they do,If they were any sort of Irish army they would have been up North during the troubles when the British Army,RUC and Loyalist militias were burning fellow Irish people from their homes and interning them without trial,instead they sat there and watched,the IRA is Ireland real army in my view,this state and its army may fly the flag,but that doesnt mean they represent it

But this gets more confusing. The nation you claim to belong most certainly supports its armed forces and the flag they fly. You appear to be claiming that the majority of your nation are actually somehow fake and that you are the genuine article. Given this dichotomy surely you can begin to see that nationalism is mere made up nonsense.