Foreign-sounding names and discrimination MERGED

Rebelheart

dochasach wrote: »

And English was the official language of the country where the Jim Crow laws were written. Many of these laws simply required that the voter be able to read the constitution in English. Harmless and very popular, what could possibly be wrong? I began with the assumption that subtle social pressures work against newcomers in Ireland and now you've convinced me that some very recent Irish laws are directly comparable to Jim Crow laws of the late 19th century.

There seems little point in arguing this further. It's obvious that some have made up their mind. This study is the clearest way of unearthing the hidden discrimination which runs through this society. Another way would be for RTE (if they can be bothered) to follow an immigrant (or actor) as he/she goes through the process of fitting in here. As I've said before, these problems are not specific to Ireland, most societies are frayed on the borders. But there remains an air of smugness which allows too many to continue in the belief that Ireland is a paragon of social justice, when those who would know better are chastised for presenting inconvenient truths.

Also, your assumptions on my attitude towards the Irish language are completely wrong. I am more pro-Irish than the average native, but I must admit I'm not yet above the local average in my Irish fluency (as other foreign friends and members of my household are.) I understand the history behind its loss and the effort to bring it back, and yet in some cases efforts to promote Irish are nothing but mirror images of the British laws imposed to quash it. The fact that some gaelscoileanna can and do discriminate based on the parent's ability to speak Irish is yet another example of where your argument falls over. Preserve civil service jobs for those who speak an unpopular, not necessarily useful but official language, then decouple civil service from the real economy. Make it a special case where you are always promoted and can't be fired. Then make sure newcomers aren't allowed to learn the prerequisite language??? It's not apartheid, but it is a step in that direction.

Amazing. So now it's "discrimination" because there is a requirement to have knowledge of Irish in order to serve the Irish public. Yes, how inconvenient that those dastardly Irish speakers are still in Ireland; why don't they change just to suit the latest batch of settlers (at least one of whom evidently wants to engage in anti-Irish cultural colonialism on a par with the British before him/her). Charming.

I bet you thought you were coming to this delusionary "British Isles" world when you decided to come to Ireland as well. There's your problem.

Dyr

greendom wrote: »

Are you seriously suggestion that only Irish born citizens can join the police force in Ireland? Why should a non-national not be allowed to perform this function, providing he/she passes the test like anyone else.

I wonder how the New York police force would have managed if they'd only allowed US born citizens to apply :rolleyes:

They have managed very well it seems:

"You do not have to be a United States citizen to take the Police Officer Exam, but you must be a United States citizen on or before the date of hire."

from http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

sick burn for ole rollyeyes greendom there

I'm suggesting that only irish citizens (not irish born citizens) should be allowed to be members of our police force. And our civil service.

gversey

If you seen the surname Versey on a C.V. would you think i was foreign??

DutchGuy

Note to self: Change name on CV to Ualtar O'Damba

That's how I'm registered with the GAA club anyway so that should be grand...

Not wanting to stir up trouble, but I must admit I've always found it hilarious when the Irish complain about immigration.

greendom

Bambi wrote: »

They have managed very well it seems:

"You do not have to be a United States citizen to take the Police Officer Exam, but you must be a United States citizen on or before the date of hire."

from http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

sick burn for ole rollyeyes greendom there

I'm suggesting that only irish citizens (not irish born citizens) should be allowed to be members of our police force. And our civil service.

Fair enough on the US thing (not sure what sick burn means but I'll leave that to one side), do you know when that rule was brought in btw. As far as I'm concerned nationality should be irrelevant as long as the person is suited and capable of doing the job. It is in fact beneficial to draw people from all communities of the state as the police force should match the community it is policiing

What is the current legislation in Ireland re this - for example can citizens from the rest of EU apply to be police officers (or civil servants come to that)?

dochasach

Rebelheart wrote: »

Amazing. So now it's "discrimination" because there is a requirement to have knowledge of Irish in order to serve the Irish public. Yes, how inconvenient that those dastardly Irish speakers are still in Ireland; why don't they change just to suit the latest batch of settlers (at least one of whom evidently wants to engage in anti-Irish cultural colonialism on a par with the British before him/her). Charming.

Where do you get this? Maybe you didn't read or understand my comment that, "some gaelscoileanna can and do discriminate based on the parent's ability to speak Irish." That is, Irish language schools can and do turn away students whose parents don't speak Irish. At least with Jim Crow laws there was a theoretical loophole, Jimmy could learn to read English. The Irish system doesn't necessarily allow that, because if Uhura's mam and pa didn't already learn Irish in Lagos, she might not be eligible to learn it here.

Rebelheart wrote:

I bet you thought you were coming to this delusionary "British Isles" world when you decided to come to Ireland as well. There's your problem.

I thought I made it clear that I am very happy and have been treated quite well. But that doesn't mean I should pretend that all newcomers are treated as well as I have been. It sounds as if you're reading your own prejudices into everything I write, so I may as well bow out. Moderator, I hope you preserve this thread. Historians are going to have a grand laugh a few hundred years from now.

Dia annseo isteach. Sláinte agus saol agaibh, agus bas in Eireann

KINGVictor

KINGVictor wrote: »

I am seeking opinion on this forum,I have a friend from Africa who is very educated,he has an MBS from UCD,with lots of quals including

Microcoft certified technology specialist
PMI
Prince2 practitioner
and a host of others I cant recollect at the Mo,he has applied to virtually all the companies and agencies in Ireland but no responce at all,but he changes the name on his Cv to John Murphy with the exact same qualifications and experience and he recieves almost 5 different calls a day,is this just an exception .

I sent this post October 2008 under the topic "Are Irish Companies Racist"and it caused a lot of negative responces.We always act very shocked and flabbergasted when the Irish are accused of being discriminatory but this is simply and practically the case.I work in HR for a very popular organisation and I am adequately aware of the shocking xenophobia that occurs against non-irish people.At first,I was very concerned and raised the issue with colleagues and a few bosses but there all told me to get over it and concentrate on my work.

Having read a lot of comments on this thread,it confirms my theory that the Irish are always very defensive when it comes to this reality.My friend that I was referring to in the post has since moved to the Uk,where despite all the economic woes has managed to get a Professional job a few weeks he got there,as a friend I was very sad to see such a talented man go because of the way he was treated but I do understand that he has to give his children a chance in life,where there would be no limitations to where they could aspire to be in life irrespective of their ethnicity.

It is ironical that we the Irish were subjected to this sort of racism and we hated it and still dislike "some people" for it till today.It would only be a natural assumption that because of our previous experiences we would treat other people fairly and justly but the reverse is absolutely the case.We have become a people with inflated egos and superiority complexes as soon as we found ourselves in a relatively prosperous sitituation.When this people complain they are told to "suck it up" or if they dont like it here they should go back to their country-that is the most egoistic and inflamatory comment I have ever heard and rich coming from people who their emmigrant population is 10 times those that live in the country itself.

This South African almost sued our organisation and I would have if it was me because he had a very good case.He applied online for a position and 3 minutes later and I am not exaggerating-Yes 3 minutes ,he was sent an email by one of my colleagues saying he was not suitable for the job after he saw his resume and obviously was a black african from his name.He called back and asked how we could possibly have objectively assessed his application in 3 minutes.That is just the sorry state of the country as regards the absolute disregard we have for immigrants in this country.It is honestly very pathetic.

SWL

dochasach wrote: »

And English was the official language of the country where the Jim Crow laws were written. Many of these laws simply required that the voter be able to read the constitution in English. Harmless and very popular, what could possibly be wrong? I began with the assumption that subtle social pressures work against newcomers in Ireland and now you've convinced me that some very recent Irish laws are directly comparable to Jim Crow laws of the late 19th century.

There seems little point in arguing this further. It's obvious that some have made up their mind. This study is the clearest way of unearthing the hidden discrimination which runs through this society. Another way would be for RTE (if they can be bothered) to follow an immigrant (or actor) as he/she goes through the process of fitting in here. As I've said before, these problems are not specific to Ireland, most societies are frayed on the borders. But there remains an air of smugness which allows too many to continue in the belief that Ireland is a paragon of social justice, when those who would know better are chastised for presenting inconvenient truths.

Also, your assumptions on my attitude towards the Irish language are completely wrong. I am more pro-Irish than the average native, but I must admit I'm not yet above the local average in my Irish fluency (as other foreign friends and members of my household are.) I understand the history behind its loss and the effort to bring it back, and yet in some cases efforts to promote Irish are nothing but mirror images of the British laws imposed to quash it. The fact that some gaelscoileanna can and do discriminate based on the parent's ability to speak Irish is yet another example of where your argument falls over. Preserve civil service jobs for those who speak an unpopular, not necessarily useful but official language, then decouple civil service from the real economy. Make it a special case where you are always promoted and can't be fired. Then make sure newcomers aren't allowed to learn the prerequisite language??? It's not apartheid, but it is a step in that direction.

You're suggestion that the use of the Irish language is a kin to apartheid, clearly shows you know nothing about Irish culture, the Irish language, or more importantly the Irish Physic.

The gaelscoilenna do not in the majority of cases refuse entry based on the parents ability, the link you showed about the black school and the parents referring to the Irish as racist was also disingenuous, how can a country be expected to plan for accommodation of African children not yet born and when they can't be accommodated in there chosen location they are racist.(at the same time receiving more opportunities than they would have in the countries of origin) I have nephews who had the same problem with school places unfortunately their parents could not place the race card.

You have elected to live here and there are traditions and a culture which precede both you and me, out of curtsy to the majority who emanate from that culture you should show respect.

The U.S. is still a long way from harmony, Obma is a middle class Harvard law graduate not a black rapper from Philadelphia, so you’re lecturing the Irish population on discrimination and oppression is a bit rich.

A lot of reverse racism in your post.

IIMII

dochasach wrote: »

something has you focused on imaginary fears. The immigrants from the accession states did not cause the economic mess we're all in.

We caused the economic mess ourselves. We allowed redidential zoning of massive tracts of lands outside our cities, enough to accomade multiples of the housing stock we would need for the next ten years but mainly outside of the cities so house prices continued to inflate from the cities out. Then in 2004 we allowed the country to be flooded by labour from abroad. As a result we built enough new houses for the next decade in those 3 years. Now with all of this work done, we have no more work for our own construction workers, and many of those that came in those 3 years of madness from May 2004 remain, many without work.

We put our housing production into overdrive, and now we have no work for many builders that were comfortably employed pre-2004. No matter what your view on racism, emmigration etc, one thing is clear 5 years on - a small country like us should never have allowed such a huge influx of construction related immigration when it was innevitably going to result in a crash. All that zoned land was not so much of a problem when there was a shortage of people to actually build them. But with all that zoned land, we had to open the gates to an army of workers who were prepared to build them in record time, when in fact we should have been limiting supply outside of the cities, and increasing supply in the cities.

Who is to blame? The politicians for zoning the land in every backwater across the island. The Unions for pushing for full employment access to Ireland for the new accession states even though it was obvious we would be swamped being so small a country (and ironically they wrongly though East Europeans were pro-union and would all join up, when most just wanted work) and the banks for throwing money about like confetti at a wedding.

All along the governemt line was we had to have completely open doors because we were rich, with the lowest rate of unemployment and it was the right thing to do. Now we are poor, and soon to have the highest unemployment (with Spain) in the EU - what's the right thing to do now?

For one, I think we should offer a one off payment and flights home for anyone on the Social Welfare that would like to return to their own country voluntarily. But even that voluntary proposal seems to be attacked everytime it's mentioned. To be honest, if I was from another country and stuck here on the dole, and if I was offered free flights and a bonus payment to go back home, I'd probably jump at it rather than stay here with the way things are screwed at the moment

seamus

It's probably already been said, but I imagine most of this comes down to language. For a lot of Irish people, there seems to be nothing which annoys them more than someone they can't understand. It's probably some form of insular thing, but I've heard people complain about not being able to understand someone who (to me) was doing fine. From what I can tell, the irritation with call centers and shops and such is that it makes it very difficult to deal with the other person - even if the operator is liverpudlian...

It just seems to be something which really grinds our gears. So when presented with someone who might not have a great accent versus an Irish person, I can understand why they favour calling the guy they'll be able to understand.

The fact that *all* foreigners in the study were discriminated against confirms this. If it was a racial thing, then the German wouldn't have had similar problems to the African.

KINGVictor

seamus wrote: »

It's probably already been said, but I imagine most of this comes down to language. For a lot of Irish people, there seems to be nothing which annoys them more than someone they can't understand. It's probably some form of insular thing, but I've heard people complain about not being able to understand someone who (to me) was doing fine. From what I can tell, the irritation with call centers and shops and such is that it makes it very difficult to deal with the other person - even if the operator is liverpudlian...

It just seems to be something which really grinds our gears. So when presented with someone who might not have a great accent versus an Irish person, I can understand why they favour calling the guy they'll be able to understand.

The fact that *all* foreigners in the study were discriminated against confirms this. If it was a racial thing, then the German wouldn't have had similar problems to the African.

Hi Seamus,

It has nothing to do with language at all.I would suppose it would very difficult for an Australian ,American or even our British neighbors to completely understand us despite the fact we speak the same language.

I reckon you are very aware that in sectors of the economy where we have shortages like health,IT etc ,we have numerous doctors,nurses,IT consultants etc that speak with the same accent and language constraints like the other immigrants who work as factory workers,shop assistants.

I have a Zimbabwen friend who applied to study for a masters programme in a Higher Institution in this country and was refused because they would not recognise his degree in Physics but incidentally his blood sister with a nursing degree is gainfully employed by the the HSE with a qualification from the same university.

We felt very insulted as Irish people when current Institute of technology degrees were not accepted by the British when emmigration was the order of the day but feel extremely comfortable to treat immigrants the same way-very hyprotical if you ask me.

An Irish person who immigrates to Australia or Canada tomorrow , would be entitled to the country's passport after 5 years(and this would be issued after max-6 months of application) but in reverse,it would take non-Irish people over 24-36 months to get a decision.So go figure out:o

asdasd

I reckon you are very aware that in sectors of the economy where we have shortages like health,IT etc

we dont have shortages in any of those areas.