Foreign-sounding names and discrimination MERGED

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Dudess wrote: »

Do they pay them less? I'd wager it...

That's a good 'un.

Terry

SWL wrote: »

Comical, You then thank post #41, which is the same point I made, you're from Cork alright.

STFU

Decker Numerous Blackhead wrote: »

Aren't the results based on this:

"Between March and October last year, researchers sent out pairs of matched CVs in response to 240 job adverts in administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail. The two fictitious applicants had equivalent qualifications, skills and expertise – all gained in Ireland – but while one candidate had an Irish name, the other was Asian, African or German.

Both candidates were invited for interview on 23 occasions. In 55 cases, the Irish names were called for interview and the foreign-named applicants were rejected, while in just 15 cases, the minority names were called and the Irish-named were ignored."

From the same article...

Wow! A whole 2 CVs.
Sensationalist bollix.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Coming over here, contributing to the greatest period of sustained economic growth we'd ever known only for Irish politicians to allow Irish run banks engage in ludicrously dangerous and foolhardy policies causing the global recession to hit us harder.

The bástards.

So sending money out of the country in classed as a good contribution?
The massive amount of previously rarely seen Western Union etc. facilities would tend to show that there was quite a significant amount of money not put back into this economy.
The banks and the government are not the only ones to blame.

Decker Numerous Blackhead wrote: »

There is such a thing as being too P.C. and something else known as Reverse Discrimination which I fear is what a lot of posters on here are doing.

Stupid hippies didn't see that one coming.
What was that thing that the Yanks tried a few years ago?
Positive something or another.
It was designed to help Black people but the usual jackasses took advantage of it and white people ended up suffering.

_Nuno_ wrote: »

Who the hell gave you the permission to be the voice of the entire population of the world???? I know plenty of people that would give a foreigner the same exact treatment has a national. You are noty the voice of the whole world. Your opinion is not that of the whole population of the world.

Get a grip on yourself.

Attack the post, not the poster.

asdasd wrote: »

I wait a reply on why we discriminate in favour of Irish people who want to go to Trinity college, compared to Chinese people.

Answer?

Because we're Irish, it's an Irish college and if we were to let foreign people avail of the same policy then we would be completely over-run and there would not be enough places for Irish people.

Bambi wrote: »

WHat made me giggle was that the professor they got on newstalk this morning was, like every other quango employee in this country it seems, a brit :pac:

It's the same with the hippies.
You know, the anti-progress tree huggers.
All children of landed gentry from the heart of England.

greendom wrote: »

Well as an EU citizen the Greek person is just as entitled as the Irish person - but I suppose practicality would be the deciding factor and you would employ the person living in Ireland.

Just as if someone living in Donegal was up against a person from Dublin for a position in Dublin. If everything else was equal I imagine you would give it to the person already based in Dublin.

I know someone from Mayo who got a Dublin based job over several Dublin based applicants.
The employers obviously felt the Mayo dude was the best man for the job.

Tigger wrote: »

acually as an employer i use lc results to see hard working traits not to see intelligence

Giz a job.
I've no LC, but I'm a fast learner and I can do just about anything.

Resi12 wrote: »

The thing that makes me laugh is we always complaign about foreigners yet back just 200 years ago we were the biggest foreigners in the whole world!

No were were not.
USA: More Germans.
Australia: More English
UK: More Asians (specifically Indians and Pakistanis).

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

my company employs a large amount of foreigners and it is such hard work, they dont do anything unless they are told to, no initiative.

they refused to take on extra work, even though 2/3 of the department has been made redundant.

their language skills are awful which again increases everyone else's workload because most of their clients wouldnt deal with them, as they cant understand what they are saying.

management are afraid to say anything to them for two reasons

they cant understand what they are saying

they are afraid they will pull the racism card, so the rest of us are left with an unrealistic case load

Idiocy on the part of your employers really.

If you apply for a job that involves dealing with anyone, then you need to be a fluent English speaker in this country.
Any employer who employs people who do not have fluent English (first language or not) is a jackass.

I'll root out the race card later.

procure11

Charlotte Tangy Beak wrote: »

Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.

Thats a very funny assertion...if there wasnt any foreigners who would they be racists towards?

Terry

procure11 wrote: »

Thats a very funny assertion...if there wasnt any foreigners who would they be racists towards?

That's the funny part.

anonymous_joe

Terry wrote: »

So sending money out of the country in classed as a good contribution?
The massive amount of previously rarely seen Western Union etc. facilities would tend to show that there was quite a significant amount of money not put back into this economy.
The banks and the government are not the only ones to blame.

Hey I know it's not perfect, intelligent commentary on benefits of employing Irish (indigenous more than Irish, it works in the reverse) over foreign labour is more than welcome from my perspective.

'I'd give it to an Irish person instead of a foreigner. Just because' and other such inanities is bullshít. And in fairness, while a lot of money was Western Unioned outta here, a lot was also paid here in taxes, and spent on living here, which involved VAT, which brought in income from the government. Yes, they sent some money home, but at the time we had near full employment anyway so we needed foreign labour.

And again, of course the bank and government aren't entirely to blame, in fact only a tiny percentage of hte blame is theirs, it's largely due to a global crash which has a variety of roots. The overreliance on property and construction wasn't really the governments fault, people living beyond their means wasn't either. Lax oversight of banking practices was though. It's not the cause of the recession, but it sure as fúck ain't helped.

Dudess

Terry wrote: »

So sending money out of the country in classed as a good contribution?
The massive amount of previously rarely seen Western Union etc. facilities would tend to show that there was quite a significant amount of money not put back into this economy.
The banks and the government are not the only ones to blame.

But that was their money which they earned. Being part of the workforce would have helped generate money for the economy.

Terry

Dudess wrote: »

But that was their money which they earned. Being part of the workforce would have helped generate money for the economy.

Not all of it.
You also have to factor in the serial asylum seekers who scammed millions and sent that money home.
It happened and is still happening. People need to take the blinkers off on that one.

10 people living in a 3 bed and buying their food from an Eastern European owned shop doesn't really help the Irish economy much either.

Saving a vast part of your income and then taking it home is no help either.

John Mason

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah PFB, I wonder why your employers actually hired people with crap English if they're dealing with the public? Do they pay them less? I'd wager it...

no they get paid the same amount of money, we have a social inclusion programme in work, x amount must be from different ethnic background, x amount must be disabled etc.

i dont give a **** what race or religion people are but if you cant do your job, you should be sacked

PeterLT

Terry wrote: »

Not all of it.
You also have to factor in the serial asylum seekers who scammed millions and sent that money home.
It happened and is still happening. People need to take the blinkers off on that one.

10 people living in a 3 bed and buying their food from an Eastern European owned shop doesn't really help the Irish economy much either.

Saving a vast part of your income and then taking it home is no help either.

They still pay taxes, rent, bills. I can imagine how much they are paying for electricity and gas all together it's definitely more than 3 average Irish families.

Owner of a Eastern European store pays VAT, collects VAT, pays PSRI and PAYE to the Revenue for him self and his employees...

And I believe that there are more then 10 times Irish scammers than foreigns...

PeterLT

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

no they get paid the same amount of money, we have a social inclusion programme in work, x amount must be from different ethnic background, x amount must be disabled etc.

i dont give a **** what race or religion people are but if you cant do your job, you should be sacked

Could you elaborate here? What the hell is "social inclusion programme"?
You have to have x polish in the company or what else?

In that case if there is no way around it you should establish some kind of foreign HR department and recruit requireded amount of non-nationals and try to pick hard working and decent ones instead of a lazy ones

seraphimvc

asdasd wrote: »

Because in general a person not brought up with the language is not as good.

And who knows, there may be other reasons. The employer may think that German's may not fit in with the slagging in an Irish workplace, a German employer may not like the Irish informality, a Chinese employer might not want anybody but Chinese people for his restaurant, a Dublin 4 manager may not automatically go for the northside address ( that is common), a Northsider may apply reverse discriminationon the Southsider who may not "fit in" ; a Dubliner may not want a culchie, a culchie employer may not want a Dub, an Irish hotel owner may only employ Polish not lazy Irish ( I know of one situation like that).

And all of this is not even "networks" or "people you know". So it goes.

I would ask why the race-baiters of the race industries are not examining why certain addresses have less chance of success than others, for the better jobs. Surely that is more common.

sir,you do realise that this is a very unprofessional speaking of you there?:pac:

at some point i need to believe what you said here - they are probably the facts too.

but surely as human ourselves we do try to make a better world - we dont tolerate this kind of discrimination/racism action by saying out loud it is okay do we now?

this is a sad day:(

Terry

PeterLT wrote: »

They still pay taxes, rent, bills. I can imagine how much they are paying for electricity and gas all together it's definitely more than 3 average Irish families.

Owner of a Eastern European store pays VAT, collects VAT, pays PSRI and PAYE to the Revenue for him self and his employees...

And I believe that there are more then 10 times Irish scammers than foreigns...

The VAT is debateable, but of course there are more Irish scammer than foreign ones.
It's Ireland FFS.
We have more Irish people than any other nationality here.

procure11

I find this Thread very Interesting.It is a very sensitive and emotional topic and as such would generate a lot of comments.

I am from Nigeria,and I would not allude for one second that the Irish are institutionally racist.Racism and Discrimination are very complex issues and with the rise of black empowerment,feminism,gay rights etc(I really do not envy HR managers) as it makes their work very difficult.I am married to an Irish girl(for 4 years -together 6) and we have had the priviledge of residing in Ireland,The Uk,Nigeria and Belgium and believe me out of all four
I believe Ireland is the most progressive of them.For anyone (especially Blacks and asians) who think that the Irish are racist,spend One month in Belgium and you would definitely change your mind.I prefare Ireland to the Uk because unlike Ireland where if they dont like you because of your nationality ,skin colour etc you can easily decipher this from their actions or demeanour(unlike the UK where they would speak to you nicely,smile with you and pretend they are listening to you and yet hate the very ground you walk on).

Like I mentioned earlier ,I am from Nigeria.In the early 80s we made a lot money (so we thought ) from oil revenues and we literarily chased our Ghanian neighbors out of Nigeria as we regarded them as pests.Recently in South Africa ,a lot of Zimbabweans were killed as the indigenes believed they were been robbed of their jobs by non-nationals.I was watching TV3 midday programme a few days ago, and an Irish lady claimed she was bullied for being Irish In England .

Essentially this is a common ,complex phenomenon and it is not restricted to Ireland alone.

There is bound to be a lot of clashes due to cultural,religious,language differences wherever we go in the world.I was surprised to see that Fine Geal was presenting over 20 black candidates for the next elections,that is absolutely commendable-it took the US and the UK hundreds of years for them to get that opportunity.

Retrospectively,I have had very bad experiences with a few Irish people(like when they ask why I speak good English for someone from Nigeria etc)but I have also mostly had a lovely time with my Irish friends (and wife) and I appreciate that.

I have also applied to a lot of Irish orgs and a lot would not reply because of my name (but when I changed the name to my wife's name I get lots of calls)but I would like to think it is because of the current economic climate.There are obviously some nutters (like some posters on this thread) but I do not believe it is generally representatative of the Irish population.I would like to think I am correct when I say the Irish would be more sensible and acceptable because they have been 2nd class citizens themselves in the past and perharps presently( I would be referring to the Irish people seeking regularisation in the US- where they would have a black blooded person deciding their fate) and they know the sufferings ,difficulties,challenges of Immigration( for whatever reason) and as such would be more accommodating.My 2 cents(current buzzword)

Dudess

Nice try procure11 but you're not getting my credit card details! :pac:

Nah, great post and you've a super attitude. Great to read Ireland is treating you well...

procure11

Dudess wrote: »

Nice try procure11 but you're not getting my credit card details! :pac:

Nah, great post and you've a super attitude. Great to read Ireland is treating you well...

Now I find your post extremely offensive and why would I want your credit card details..this is crazy...is it because I AM BLACK...gosh...these white cant over the fact we are not their cotton pickers anymore.....:P


Nah ...Just joking ...Dudess..hope you got my points on my post anyway:)

Dyr

Then who IS picking our cotton for us now?

Terry

Bambi wrote: »

Then who IS picking our cotton for us now?

Cotton pickers.

PeterLT

Terry wrote: »

The VAT is debateable, but of course there are more Irish scammer than foreign ones.
It's Ireland FFS.
We have more Irish people than any other nationality here.

Hold on bud, I agree with most of your points here, but what do you mean VAT is debatable? There is nothing to debate here, people in the Dail are debating over this, but not us. VAT is indirect tax if you don't purchase you don't pay it.

procure11

Bambi wrote: »

Then who IS picking our cotton for us now?

Hi Bambi ,

I honestly from the bottom of my heart meant what I said as a joke ...Pls I personally do not want this to turn to an arguement.But honestly these days anyone could pick cotton...literarily....In case you dont know know that means **** in malaysia...

jan_kowalski

Probably all have been said here already, I just might add something small to it. Few years ago when I came to Ireland and worked completely different job to the job I work now, I had irish boss and he was very, very nice guy.
While I was working for him other staff changed every now and then so I saw few people coming in and going. He said (and that is what he actually did) that he is never going to employ Irish guy when he gets CV, unless somebody who he knows or someone by recomendation. I asked startled why. He said they let him down too many times. Too many times Monday sickies, too many times lazy workers, too many times reckless.
And on the other hand he had extremely good experience with foreigners.

You might think this was because foreigners are cheap and he had gone for cheap manpower. That was not a case at all. He paid us very decent money those days, way above average. Often threw in some extra for job well done, was buying sandwiches and drinks, etc. So he definitely wasn't picking foreigners to pay them peanuts.

So this is another point of view on the same subject - so you could say that he was discriminating against own Irish fellows, but that was very based on his bad experiences so I understand him and would not call it being discriminative or racist in that case. Would you agree?

dochasach

procure11 wrote: »

Now I find your post extremely offensive and why would I want your credit card details..this is crazy...is it because I AM BLACK...gosh...these white cant over the fact we are not their cotton pickers anymore.....:P

Nah ...Just joking ...Dudess..hope you got my points on my post anyway:)

Procure, you speak well for all of us 'blow-ins' thanks! You are more optimistic than I am. I believe that there is institutional parochialism, if not racism in Ireland. There are some comments on this thread that should be preserved as excellent counter examples of progressive multiculturalism. For example:

Charlotte Tangy Beak wrote:

"Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.."

Classic!

easyeason3 wrote:

"It's not fair but that's life, get over it."

easyeason3, the examples you give are not only unfair, they are illegal.

GaNjaHaN wrote:

"Less chance of language barrier maybe?...Linking nationality with english skills is the equivelant of linking general intellegence with LC results.
Not always fair, but probably justified."

Just don't link English skills with spelling skills and everyone will be K.O.

RaverRo808 wrote:

yeah Im sure times are tough for immigrants,asylum seekers and the like,but they have an option,the boat back to their home country,which can in turn look after them

Fair enough, just be sure to prepare for 40 million Irish catching the boat home when they can't find a job in their adopted country.

pink fluffy bunny wrote:

"my company employs a large amount of foreigners and it is such hard work, they dont do anything unless they are told to, no initiative."

Extrapolating from the 'useless' foreigners with 'no initiative' at your company, one wonders how the the rest of the world copes. It's a little known fact that most countries have even a higher percentage of non-Irish workers than Ireland does.

Terry wrote:

You also have to factor in the serial asylum seekers who scammed millions and sent that money home. It happened and is still happening.

Proof? Millions of Euro were scammed or millions of people? Do you know for a fact that TUBUNTU UHURA president of the African national diamond mine isn't really Paddy O'Murphy from MountJoy?

Terry wrote:

10 people living in a 3 bed and buying their food from an Eastern European owned shop doesn't really help the Irish economy much either.

As others have pointed out, rent/mortgage interest, PRSI... But what of the Irish millionaire developer throwing money borrowed from an AIB or Anglo Irish into Florida, Spanish and Bulgarian property. Did he contribute his share to our tax roles. Is his net effect on our economy positive? Move along, nothing to see here.

The name discrimination is no surprise, similar studies have shown 'black-sounding' name discrimination in the U.S. and many great-grandchildren of the Irish diaspora lost track of their Irish roots because in the 19th century, Irish names carried such a stigma that many dropped or morphed then. There is probably also discrimination within Ireland against those with Connaught, Munster, Leinster, culchie names and especially names associated with the 'traveler race (sic)'

Jan, thanks for the comment about cases of Irish discrimination against Irish. IMHO, discrimination is discrimination, there is no such thing as reverse-discrimination.

The good news is that the majority of the Irish moving into the power structure really believe in multiculturalism and desire to do the right thing. If it were only so easy as declaring "I'm not racist" or "I'm pro black" Ireland would really be there (even before it had many immigrants.) But this study clearly shows what most of us blowins already know. We aren't there yet. Hiring/firing/promotion decisions are being made based on name, race, religion, gender and other factors unrelated to primary job qualifications. Hiring for the wrong reasons makes a company less efficient. And in this economy, we can't afford to ignore these kinds of inefficiencies.

stepbar

Charlotte Tangy Beak wrote: »

Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.

Aw now there was, try being from Roscommon.....

SWL

dochasach wrote: »

Hiring/firing/promotion decisions are being made based on name, race, religion, gender and other factors unrelated to primary job qualifications. Hiring for the wrong reasons makes a company less efficient. And in this economy, we can't afford to ignore these kinds of inefficiencies.

Have you absolute proof that Irish employers are hiring on that basis or are it your own racist/xenophobe views. Maybe you can tell me where you are from, so I can compare your country with Ireland. The above obviously don't happen in your country but tell me were it is so I can compare.

I employed plenty of Irish and foreigners in my time, my right arm to keep the Irish lads, Asian lads as well as the Indian guys plenty of initiative tells them do something and they will do it and use their initiative to figure it out also great with customers.

European were pretty much useless, tell them do something, no initiative to figure it out had to be spoon feed eve thing and this is 6 + months into a job that is pretty straightforward.

It’s funny seeing poster here particularity from EE ranting about racism and discrimination, when I have found employing EE that they are among the most intolerant and racist people I have come across. Threaten and spitting at Asian employees simply because they were Asian, bullying a Gay member of staff over been Gay. Preferential treatment happens in your country also so don't pretend it don't and less of the racism crap, people have had it said so often usually in the wrong context that they are beginning not to care anymore.

But tell me your country so I can compare good chance I have visited or lived there so it will be straightforward.

pipsqueak

so let me get this right.
If an irish employer gives preference to a irish person in a job application he is racist. ? not favoritism or discriminatory but racist!!

Maybe they should receive com -pey-say-shun;)

techdiver

pipsqueak wrote: »

so let me get this right.
If an irish employer gives preference to a irish person in a job application he is racist. ? not favoritism or discriminatory but racist!!

Maybe they should receive com -pey-say-shun;)

Yea, the word "Racist", has become a blunt instrument that the "PC Nazi's" use to beat anyone who says anything they don't agree with. The real meaning of the word is becoming lost.

Picking an Irish person for a job over a foreign person is no more racism than someone from D4 getting a job over someone from Ballymun.

4zn76tysfajdxp

stepbar wrote: »

Aw now there was, try being from Roscommon.....

I'd rather not thanks...

Nodin

Bambi wrote: »

Then who IS picking our cotton for us now?

Transformers, cunningly disguised as machines that pick cotton.

_Nuno_

pipsqueak wrote: »

so let me get this right.
If an irish employer gives preference to a irish person in a job application he is racist. ? not favoritism or discriminatory but racist!!

Maybe they should receive com -pey-say-shun;)

I'm not sure if anyone said it was racist, but I didn't.

Discriminating someone on the grounds of skin color is seen by most as a bad thing, as is doing so on the grounds of religion or gender, although the latest probably to a lesser degree.

Now do it on the grounds of nationality, especially in times of economic crisis, and you suddenly have a patriot.

That's more or less how I think it works.

wes

techdiver wrote: »

Yea, the word "Racist", has become a blunt instrument that the "PC Nazi's" use to beat anyone who says anything they don't agree with. The real meaning of the word is becoming lost.

Picking an Irish person for a job over a foreign person is no more racism than someone from D4 getting a job over someone from Ballymun.

They pick people based on name alone and not nationality. A person with a foreign sounding name can be from this country. I have a foreign sounding name and I was born and lived here all my life. So it most certainly could be considered racist for someone to be rejected based soley on there name, as this could also effect Irish people from ethnic minority groups as well. Having said that, it would be more accurate to refer to it as discrimination, as its impossible to tell someone's race based soley on there name.

Also, its absurd to judge someone based on name alone, for one the person could be Irish. Also, even if there foreign, it is illegal to discriminate on such absurd grounds. If 2 people send in a CV with same qualifications, rejecting one guy based on his name is nonsensical. It would make more sense to get both in for an interview and then make the decision at that point. Hiring people should be based on who is best for the job, no 2 candidates (even those with the same qualifications) will be exactly the same and the interview process is how you get to see who of the 2 would be better.

Rebelheart

The irony of this topic on the benefit of "Irish names". Just try and live life, apply for posts etc in this country while having your name in Irish rather than being weak-willed and conforming to the name the English gave your family and see how you get on with your application.

The amount of undereducated and insecure people in this benighted land - people who invariably start spelling your surname with O' when a scintilla of education would inform them that you wrote Ó, and that your name means something, and that it is your name and this should be respected - it's all over their heads, these "Irish" people.

But how many times do you think the same illiterates ask, "What's that properly?"or "What's that in English?" as they are determined to force you into their comfort zone by spelling your name in English? I have often been in queues where the foreigner in front of me has been asked to spell his or her name, but when I arrive at the desk I am asked for the "proper" version of my name. That's it. It's all about comfort zones and people with Irish names, as opposed to people with English versions of Irish names, are now outside the comfort zones of far too many of what one poet referred to as "the new English called the Irish". The truth hurts.

So much for "Irish names" being a benefit in Ireland in 2009. But then again, why bother with the lost opportunities of us unashamedly Irish people with genuine and meaningful Irish names when we have loads of lovely foreigners to show the world we care about. The truth hurts # 2.