Foreign-sounding names and discrimination MERGED

Dudess

I find this a strange one:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0507/1224246058800.html

I'd have thought it was simply because there are likely to be less applicants with "foreign-sounding" names...

JOB APPLICANTS with typical Irish names are twice as likely to be called for interview as those with minority names, according to a groundbreaking study by the ESRI.

In the first experiment of its kind in Ireland, researchers found that candidates with non-Irish names were subjected to “strong discrimination” by employers across the three sectors of the labour market that were tested.

There was no significant difference between the minority groups, with African, Asian and German names all twice as likely to be overlooked at the initial recruitment stage as Irish ones, even where applicants had equivalent qualifications.

“The extent of discrimination observed in this experiment directly contradicts any notions of equality in terms of access to employment,” the report concluded.

“Individuals with non-Irish backgrounds do not have equal access to the Irish labour market if they are being screened out at the first stage of recruitment.”

Between March and October last year, researchers sent out pairs of matched CVs in response to 240 job adverts in administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail. The two fictitious applicants had equivalent qualifications, skills and expertise – all gained in Ireland – but while one candidate had an Irish name, the other was Asian, African or German.

Both candidates were invited for interview on 23 occasions. In 55 cases, the Irish names were called for interview and the foreign-named applicants were rejected, while in just 15 cases, the minority names were called and the Irish-named were ignored.

From this, the ESRI calculated that candidates with Irish names were over twice as likely to be invited to interview as those with non-Irish names. “It does prove that a very old ghost of discrimination still haunts us,” said Richard Fallon, acting chief executive of the Equality Authority, which commissioned the study.

“You’re twice as likely to encounter this spectre with a non-Irish surname than with an identifiably Irish one – that’s even with Irish citizenship and with Irish qualifications.”

The strength of the discrimination recorded in the Irish experiment is high relative to similar studies carried out in other countries, but not unprecedented.

The authors noted that their findings were also consistent with previous research showing immigrants’ disadvantage in the labour market. But while previous studies found that black respondents stood out as faring worse than other groups, this experiment found no difference in discrimination rates between those with minority names.

Interpreting the results, Dr Pete Lunn, an ESRI economist and co-author of the report, suggested the discrimination may be explained by “in-group favouritism”, which suggests “the positive desire to hire Irish workers, as opposed to a dislike of hiring foreign workers”.

“We didn’t observe a different level of discrimination against the three minorities. If this was based on negative feelings towards the minorities, you might expect some variation in the extent of that negative feeling,” he explained.

“Whereas if it’s predominantly based on a desire to favour one’s own . . . then you would expect to see equal discrimination against the other three minority groups.”

The report suggested a number of measures to help reduce discrimination. These include the provision of more information for employers and workers on the equality laws and the introduction of random audits of hiring practices. If employers were required to keep all records of job applications for 12 months and to justify their hiring decisions, it would reinforce the pressure to adhere to good practice.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

KTRIC

This is going on for years and its the same in every country. Nothing new, slow news day etc...

raunch

The luck of the oirish, i don't know why a name should make any difference, surely whoever has the best creds would be the more suitable applicant?

4zn76tysfajdxp

You're one to talk, Dudess isn't an Irish name....

Smart Bug

No one ever calls Smart Bug for interview

Tupins

I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

Ireland is a very racist country in my experience.

shenanigans1982

Not surprising......I used to work with a chinese guy who couldn't speak a word of English but he was called Kevin....either he knew about this or was just lucky.

Mr.Lizard

By chance was the surname of the German candidate "Hitler"?

KTRIC

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

By chance was the surname of the German candidate "Hitler"?

Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.

Dudess

KTRIC wrote: »

This is going on for years and its the same in every country. Nothing new, slow news day etc...

That's what I was thinking - it really doesn't look that "groundbreaking".

Tupins wrote: »

I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

Ireland is a very racist country in my experience.

Well apparently they're "takin' all our jobs"...
I'd disagree that Ireland is a very racist country.

Gummy Panda

Tupins wrote: »

I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

Ireland is a very racist country in my experience.

Home advantage?

I believe this happens in every other country. Next week the newspapers will be saying all these jobs were taken by Indian lads. It's just saber rattling by organizations justifing their existence in a recession

Mr.Lizard

KTRIC wrote: »

Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.

I didn't say it was A.Hitler. I said it was a Hitler.

raunch

From what i hear, a lot of european countries have an issue with racisim, is ireland the only one free from that?

Dudess

And foreigners are outnumbered too by Irish people - it really doesn't look that sinister. There have even been cries of "racism gone rife!" FFS...

4zn76tysfajdxp

Dudess wrote: »

There have even been cries of "racism gone rife!" FFS...

Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.

ednwireland

i have a polish surname (born and brought up in england moved here in 1997) when the it company i worked for closed in 2002 i must have put out 200 job applications only got a few interviews (fair enough most of the companies closed) but one guy when he rang me said "i didnt know whether i'd be able to speak english or not"
thats the only very mild form of that ive ever experienced. (i actually wouldnt class that as racism but not reading my CV )

But the other problem is most jobs seem to go through who you know route here as well so i guess if your an immigrant you just dont have the connections (got my current job that way)

So i guess it happens, i think the uk that certainly seems to have disappeared in the last 20 years or so (defo happened before then)

.50 (MOA)

KTRIC wrote: »

Hitler was Austrian, different country. The name isn't even common, wasn't at the time and definitely isn't now.

in new york in 1938 there was 45 'Hitlers' in the phonebook, in 1945 there was none. they all had changed their name to something else.

That is a different name, not Hermann something else married to Anna somethiong else, oh you know what i mean.

asdasd

The report proves nothing about "racism" because the vast majority of the applicants with foreign sounding names would indeed be foreign - and thus not English speaking natively. Which is probably not what the emplyers would want. That would not be true in the second generation, but a guy with a Polish name in 10-20 years with a CV showing he was born and bred here, and at the local CBS would probably not have an issue. If he did, that would be racism.

The claim that Irish are racist towards Germans is not going to take off as a meme now is it? If we were wah-wah-wah-wahist the survey would point out the discrimination against the English, as well. But it doesn't.

I doubt the statistics in any case. Are we really saying that the hospitality industry has discriniated against foreigners - that's not what seems obvious on the ground.

That said I am sure that an O'Sullivan may have a better chance than a Schmidt in Kerry, as a Schmidt might have a better change in Frankfurt. So it goes. A lot of that is network.

WindSock

Charlotte Tangy Beak wrote: »

Well in all fairness, there wasn't any racism in Ireland until all the foreigners started coming here.

Don't mention the tinkers

asdasd

Don't mention the tinkers

Not a race. Not discriminated against in law. Mollycuddled, in fact.

But this is OT, so my last post on it.

Capt'n Midnight

LOL at the Windsors, they had to do it too.

Having an Irish sounding name is probably a good indication that you are a native speaker. For administration, lower-level accountancy or in retail this just might be an advantage since you would spend a lot of your time dealing with native Irish speakers. And we all know how much fun it is to deal on the telephone with certain people whose English isn't as fluent as could be.

They didn't mention how long the qualifications went back. For a recent graduate it might only be the final year here. Would have to repeat with primary school / secondary school included and perhaps GAA or somesuch in hobbies too. There are signifigant number of second generation immigrants around the world who use their own language amongst family and friends and don't integrate with the local culture that they might not pick up on all the idioms and stuff.

However, they did say there was no discrimination between the foreign sounding names with no significant difference between the minority groups, with African, Asian and German names. So you have to assume it's not racially based or based on the likelyhood of yellow pack workers.


TBH it sounds like a quick screening process when you have too many CV's.

TIP if you don't want to hire unlucky people simply throw half the received CV's in the bin before looking at them.

AnonoBoy

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

Not surprising......I used to work with a chinese guy who couldn't speak a word of English but he was called Kevin....either he knew about this or was just lucky.

I think a lot of Chinese people take Western names when they come over. Probably because they're sick of people not being able to pronounce their names.

Capt'n Midnight

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

Not surprising......I used to work with a chinese guy who couldn't speak a word of English but he was called Kevin....either he knew about this or was just lucky.

There are some muck savages from the mountains of County Cork called Kevin and guess what ? :pac:

_Nuno_

Dudess wrote: »

I find this a strange one:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0507/1224246058800.html

I'd have thought it was simply because there are likely to be less applicants with "foreign-sounding" names...

Just curious, if the same amount of foreign applicants had half the replies that the exact same amount of applicants with Irish names got, how on earth would you reach that conclusion????

omyatari

so, being foreign with a typical Irish name, would have been a reason why i got a job so fast?

connundrum

omyatari wrote: »

so, being foreign with a typical Irish name, would have been a reason why i got a job so fast?

Correct.

Edit - Cleary the typical Irish name got you in the door, thereafter your astual skills/experience got you the job.

SWL

Tupins wrote: »

I find this very sad but unfortunately not suprising.

Ireland is a very racist country in my experience.

Happens in every single country in the world, what surprises me is that some people don't know or accept that’s the way it is. People look out for their own.

As for Ireland being racist, got anything to back that up, maybe somebody didn't say hello to you today and of courses that’s because they are racist, please spare the drama.

Dudess

I thought you thought they were taking all our jobs SWL...

_Nuno_ wrote: »

Just curious, if the same amount of foreign applicants get had half the replies that the exact same amount of applicants with Irish names got, how on earth would you reach that conclusion????

Yeah, badly phrased of me. What I mean is, studies/statistics can be used to prove anything. And if this is happening in reality, I'd wager the fact more people with Irish-sounding names than foreign-sounding names is one of the reasons. Recently where I work, there was a position advertised and the vast majority of the applicants' names were Irish-sounding, thus greatly increasing the likelihood of a person with a non foreign-sounding name getting the job.

IIMII

asdasd wrote: »

foreign - and thus not English speaking natively.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Having an Irish sounding name is probably a good indication that you are a native speaker.

Think ye mean if they have Irish surnames, they are likely to speak fluent English. We fail the native English test on the basis that we aren't English natives, and that we have a different dialect of English called Hiberno-English

WindSock

asdasd wrote: »

Not a race.

What is a race? (in your opinion)

asdasd

Recently where I work, there was a position advertised and the vast majority of the applicants names were Irish-sounding, thus greatly increasing the likelihood of a person with a non foreign-sounding name getting the job.

Thats possibly true in real life. But the survey was equal in the number of CVs it sent off, between Irish and non-Irish. The report proves discrimination, but not racism.

And discrimination is normal in job interviews. nobody is going to hire an unqualified person for a job, and if native English speaking is desired, then the applicant is unqalified.