Best Get Your TV Licence Sorted

Dartz

Came here frum Slashdot.

Oh well.

Ryan to DSL users: Bend over, this will only hurt for a moment.

Mike 1972

As long as it runs on it's own batteries it counts as Portable TV and comes under your home TV licence. It when it's main powered at another location that counts.

Where in IRISH legislation does it say this ? :rolleyes:

people who watch streaming video from outside the state which the state can have no sane claim on for tax purposes (like youtube);

The state has no sane claim levying a TV licence on people with Television sets who cant (or dont want to) receive any of the Irish channels but they do it anyway

Technically a Tourist with iPhone in pocket must also buy a Television Licence as they drive their caravan or camper van or car into the state . They also become liable as they sit into the hire car at Dublin Airport !

Or a NI resident who drives from say Newtownbutler to Crossmaglen (unless they can find some EU law on freedom of movement and spend the necessary time/money pursuing it through the courts)

If the iPhone becomes a Television because Minister Ryan did not exclude it then you only need a €170 licence for your home and a €170 licence for your car as they are 2 separate premises ...not forgetting a further licence for the Caravan / Holiday home

Actually as Irish law is based on possession rather than use/installation anyone who buys a TV set and brings it home in their car (or transports it between two licenced addresses in their car) is commiting an offence unless they have a TV licence for their car as well.

BendiBus

Sparks wrote: »

ectoraige wrote:

Forgive me, I can't find where the Minister's opinion was posted.

In post 93 above, at the start of the post:

Sponge Bob wrote:

The RTE Player is not an Internet Service in that it is a Timeshift service derived from a programme that was Broadcast . That is the opinion the minister has.

That would appear to be Sponge Bobs opinion, not the ministers. Let's see a quote from the minister. Sponge Bob has turned out to be somewhat incorrect on many occasions in the past

As I and others have commented on this thread, internet downloads are NOT broadcasts.

yawnstretch

Well Ive sent my bitch mail to the minister. Any other suggestions or do we all bend over now?

heyjude

yawnstretch wrote: »

Well Ive sent my bitch mail to the minister. Any other suggestions or do we all bend over now?

This proposal or sometime very similar was flagged by the government last year and business leaders across the spectrum apparently lobbied them intensively not to proceed. This government haven't listened in the past, they aren't listening now and there's nothing to suggest that they will listen in the future.

It will mean that all business premises with broadband and a single computer will now have to have a TV licence. Another imposition on small businesses and then they talk about reducing business costs and improving competitiveness. :rolleyes:

No harm in complaining to the minister, but as we have all seen, time and time again, they just don't listen.

Capt'n Midnight

Belfas wrote:

* television set installed and used solely for some purpose other than watching or recording television programmes (e.g. closed-circuit TV monitor, DVD or video player or games console)[31][32]
...
The BBC have stated that a licence is not needed simply because a television receiver is owned[35].

As you know down here you would need a license if you have a device capable of receiving a TV signal unless it's been permenantly decomissioned.

Capt'n Midnight

Jonathan wrote: »

Are broadband providers going to get a cut of this new license fee, seeing as their networks and bandwidth are a form of transmission?

no.
the money goes to people making material for public service broadcasting and some other stuff

jaqian

ceret wrote: »

Can you get the RTÉ player to work on Linux? In which case it doesn't count for me as an Ubuntu user.

I watched it on my Linux (FreeSpire) laptop no problem when it first came out. Haven't looked at it since as I cannot think of anything on RTE that I watch anyway:)

AlbertH

I had a look at the actual document and some clarification would be nice about one piece on Page 143.

"143.—(1) The Minister may, subject to this Part and on payment
of the prescribed fee (if any) grant to any person a licence
(“television licence”) to keep and have possession of a television set
in a premises or specified place in the territory of the State."

If the license is for 'a television set in a premises' then this could be interpreted to mean if you used the same television at home and then again in a different location (holiday home/caravan) you would need 2 licences.

Alternatively, as it is for A television do you need a licence for every individual ‘television’? I know in the UK it is expressly stated that the licence is for the premises and not the device, so you can have as many televisions in the house all covered by one licence.

Finally, if they do classify computers and mobile phones as ‘televisions’ and you need a licence for each one then what would this mean for companies with 1,000s of computers and mobile phones. If you need a licence for each device then they would need 1,000s of licences.

Cabaal

AlbertH the license is per premises NOT per device, so if you go to a holiday home you'd legally need one there as well

Capt'n Midnight

Mike 1972 wrote:

Actually as Irish law is based on possession rather than use/installation anyone who buys a TV set and brings it home in their car (or transports it between two licenced addresses in their car) is commiting an offence unless they have a TV licence for their car as well.

Only if they have an inverter in the car as well. :pac:

Mike 1972

Only if they have an inverter in the car as well.

Some TV's will work off a 12 volt supply but this is irellevent really as in Ireland one is supposed to have a TV licence if they have a TV in their house even if the house in question has no electricity supply.

At this stage though from an administrative point of view though it would really be simpler (and more honest) to scrap the TV (/computer/mobile phone) licence and finance RTE via some kind of poll tax or domestic rates. (Paid annually in advance and non-refundable if one moves/goes abroad/goes "off the grid"/dies) :rolleyes:

A_SN

Mike 1972 wrote: »

At this stage though from an administrative point of view though it would really be simpler (and more honest) to scrap the TV (/computer/mobile phone) licence and finance RTE via some kind of poll tax or domestic rates. (Paid annually in advance and non-refundable if one moves/goes abroad/goes "off the grid"/dies) :rolleyes:

Yep, and they could announce it by saying "We got rid of the TV license entirely! Completely unrelatedly your taxes are going up by 160 euros"

I mean it's as if you had to pay an "hospital license" to go to the hospital because people who never get sick might find it unfair to pay for hospitals they never use. If we did anything like this it'd be hell.

BoB_BoT

got a reply to my query today from the Broadcasting Policy Division in short saying no, no TV license will be required (names replaced just to be sure ) :

Dear Mr. BoB_BoT

The Broadcasting Bill 2008 currently before the Houses of the Oireachtas (see Annex A below) will not require computer users accessing the Internet (through a broadband connection or otherwise) to have a television licence.



As the case with existing legislation (see Annex B below) a computer will require a television licence only if it is capable of exhibiting standard television broadcasting services (see definition in Annex A. Key phrases are bolded) e.g. the computer is used in conjunction with a television tuner card or similar device and, as at present, if such is the case, a single licence will cover all the “television sets” in a household. A computer which is not capable of exhibiting standard television broadcasting services but can access programmes through the Internet site of the broadcaster concerned, for example, downloading programmes or clips from the RTE, TV3, TG4 or BBC websites or the RTE Player, or from sites like YouTube does not, nor will not under the new legislation, require a television licence.



I hope that this addresses your concerns.



Yours sincerely

Nice Broadcasting Policy Person
Broadcasting Policy Division

Department of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources




Annex A



Section 140 of the Bill defines a television set as follows:



“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus



This definition should be read in conjunction with section 2 of the Bill which defines a broadcasting service as follows:



“broadcasting service” means a service which comprises a compilation of programme material of any description and which is transmitted, relayed or distributed by means of an electronic communications network, directly or indirectly for simultaneous or near-simultaneous reception by the general public, whether that material is actually received or not, and where the programmes are provided in a pre-scheduled and linear order, but does not include:

(a) a service provided in a non-linear manner where each user of the service chooses a programme from a catalogue of programmes, or

(b) other audio and audiovisual services provided by way of the Internet;



In addition under section 142(3) of the Bill the Minister is further empowered to exempt classes of devices falling within the definition of a television set from any television licensing requirement.





Annex B



Section 1(1) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1972 as amended by section 2 of the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1988 states…

"Television set" means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy capable of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus."

More Music

So the company with 200 desktop PC's, 30 laptops and 40 mobile phones will be liable for all devices?

And I'll then be liable when I bring my company laptop and mobile phone home with me?

A_SN

BoB_BoT wrote: »

got a reply to my query today from the Broadcasting Policy Division in short saying no, no TV license will be required (names replaced just to be sure ) :

Dear Mr. BoB_BoT

The Broadcasting Bill 2008 currently before the Houses of the Oireachtas (see Annex A below) will not require computer users accessing the Internet (through a broadband connection or otherwise) to have a television licence.



As the case with existing legislation (see Annex B below) a computer will require a television licence only if it is capable of exhibiting standard television broadcasting services (see definition in Annex A. Key phrases are bolded) e.g. the computer is used in conjunction with a television tuner card or similar device and, as at present, if such is the case, a single licence will cover all the “television sets” in a household. A computer which is not capable of exhibiting standard television broadcasting services but can access programmes through the Internet site of the broadcaster concerned, for example, downloading programmes or clips from the RTE, TV3, TG4 or BBC websites or the RTE Player, or from sites like YouTube does not, nor will not under the new legislation, require a television licence.



I hope that this addresses your concerns.



Yours sincerely

Nice Broadcasting Policy Person
Broadcasting Policy Division

Department of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources




Annex A



Section 140 of the Bill defines a television set as follows:



“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus



This definition should be read in conjunction with section 2 of the Bill which defines a broadcasting service as follows:



“broadcasting service” means a service which comprises a compilation of programme material of any description and which is transmitted, relayed or distributed by means of an electronic communications network, directly or indirectly for simultaneous or near-simultaneous reception by the general public, whether that material is actually received or not, and where the programmes are provided in a pre-scheduled and linear order, but does not include:

(a) a service provided in a non-linear manner where each user of the service chooses a programme from a catalogue of programmes, or

(b) other audio and audiovisual services provided by way of the Internet;



In addition under section 142(3) of the Bill the Minister is further empowered to exempt classes of devices falling within the definition of a television set from any television licensing requirement.





Annex B



Section 1(1) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1972 as amended by section 2 of the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1988 states…

"Television set" means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy capable of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus."

Well, that's all suddenly very reasonable! I always felt it was unfair that USB tuner owner should evade the licence. However if it's like this, then what on Earth is up with everything and anyone saying that it's all about broadband access??

Sponge Bob

There is no Annex whatsoever to the Broadcasting Bill so the Broadcasting Policy Person was quoting Annex A and Annex B of precisely what Bob_Bot ...although it sounds like good news ??

watty

More Music wrote: »

So the company with 200 desktop PC's, 30 laptops and 40 mobile phones will be liable for all devices?

And I'll then be liable when I bring my company laptop and mobile phone home with me?

One TV license covers any number of TV tuners at home.

jor el

That reply that bob_bot received looks like good news, but those Annexes quoted are from the existing legislation, which will be superseded by the new one. So it doesn't really clarify whether Internet Broadcasts will require a licence. There is certainly some ambiguity about all this still.

Maybe it's a case that the existing legislation will not be superseded by the new one, and merely supplemented by it, in which case all existing definitions hold true. This still doesn't exclude the possibility of adding new definitions to what a broadcast is though.

Still confused?

ectoraige

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is no Annex whatsoever to the Broadcasting Bill so the Broadcasting Policy Person was quoting Annex A and Annex B of precisely what Bob_Bot ...although it sounds like good news ??

They are Annexes of..... the letter Bob_Bot received. Mystery solved.

Annex A gives the new definition of a television set, along with the definition of broadcasting service, which is necessary to fully understand what can and cannot be counted as a television set.

Annex B gives the current definition of a television set for context.

Really, Nancy Drew would have a better time reading legislation then the crowd around here.

ectoraige

jor el wrote: »

That reply that bob_bot received looks like good news, but <b>those Annexes quoted are from the existing legislation, which will be superseded by the new one.</b> So it doesn't really clarify whether Internet Broadcasts will require a licence. There is certainly some ambiguity about all this still.

Maybe it's a case that the existing legislation will not be superseded by the new one, and merely supplemented by it, in which case all existing definitions hold true.

From the post you referred to:

... Broadcasting Bill 2008 currently before the Houses of the Oireachtas (see Annex A below) ... existing legislation (see Annex B below) ...

Annex B gives the current definitions, Annex A gives the new ones.

jor el wrote: »

This still doesn't exclude the possibility of adding new definitions to what a broadcast is though.

Yes, it's called legislation. There's also nothing to exclude the possibility of redefining a tv set as "any electronic device" in a future bill. Nothing short of a constitutional amendment can preclude the contents of future legislation.

jor el wrote: »

Still confused?

No, but I can read.

jor el

ectoraige wrote: »

Yes, it's called legislation.

I was referring to the current bill, which is attempting to redefine what is meant by a broadcast service.

They specifically exclude services that broadcast in a non-linear manner, which is what I believe the RTE Player is. It also excludes other audio-visual content from the Internet, but not all other Internet content. So, although they say that the new bill does not require a licence for an Internet connected computer, if a simultaneous Internet broadcasting service were to start, this would then require a licence, as that is not excluded by the bill.

Only ministerial intervention could exclude this, which is what people should be petitioning Eamon Ryan to do. Either that, or the bill should be amended, to exclude all Internet audio-visual broadcasts.

In it's current form, if this bill becomes legislation, then future Internet broadcast services could require all households with a computer to have a TV licence, regardless of whether that service is actually used or not.

The Eurovision Song Contest, for example, is broadcast live on an Internet stream, which could be receive simultaneously by the public. This would seem to satisfy the definition of; "distributed by means of an electronic communications network, directly or indirectly for simultaneous or near-simultaneous reception by the general public".

ectoraige wrote: »

No, but I can read.

But are you fully sure that Internet broadcasts do not, and will not, require a household to have a licence, or are you sure that they would? The conflicting information in the Broadcasting Policy Division's reply should leave you confused.

ectoraige wrote:

Really, Nancy Drew would have a better time reading legislation then the crowd around here.

Perhaps she would, but not everyone is as proficient with legislative procedures as Ms Drew. They're just giving an opinion on what is not a clear cut situation. There's also no need for the smart arse answers.

watty

Since you have to have a Licence to have FTA satellite TV (which has no Irish TV) and no aerial, i.e. Watching RTE is not the issue, and some-one somewhere does real live TV on the Internet same as a Terrestrial TV service, then at the minute today, by strict interpretation you need a TV licence if you have broadband

Live German local station 700kbps http://www.noa4.tv/

Or http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/suche.html?pn=1&kategorie=PR&unterkategorie=3991186&kw=in+ZDFinfokanal&stichwortsuche-send.x=8&stichwortsuche-send.y=10&dr=1
Click on ZDF MediaThek

Select DSL-2000 oder höhere Verbindung (empfohlen)
Then Ubernehmen

You need a VERY good connection

The ZDF one is not a live link. But my Archos 605 WiFi (800x480 screen) has over 200 live TV links, some of which are over 2Mbps rate.

Random

So, you have no TV / PC / Laptop / Mobile phone / whatever in your house. You decide you're going to build a new extension. The guy comes out and starts to draw up some plans on his laptop while talking you through it.

You need a TV License for this?

****

Anyways, TV license is a complete joke. Simple as. If they want to tax the whole country 170EUR a year then do it by all means, don't pretend like I'm actually paying 170EUR for something worthwhile.

****

I honestly hate this country more every day.

BoB_BoT

got my response from "Minister Ryans" email. It's the exact same as I got from the Broadcasting dept. Looks like they've shared their response all round :P

aidan_walsh

BoB_BoT wrote: »

got a reply to my query today from the Broadcasting Policy Division in short saying no, no TV license will be required (names replaced just to be sure ) :

Dear Mr. BoB_BoT

The Broadcasting Bill 2008 currently before the Houses of the Oireachtas (see Annex A below) will not require computer users accessing the Internet (through a broadband connection or otherwise) to have a television licence.



As the case with existing legislation (see Annex B below) a computer will require a television licence only if it is capable of exhibiting standard television broadcasting services (see definition in Annex A. Key phrases are bolded) e.g. the computer is used in conjunction with a television tuner card or similar device and, as at present, if such is the case, a single licence will cover all the “television sets” in a household. A computer which is not capable of exhibiting standard television broadcasting services but can access programmes through the Internet site of the broadcaster concerned, for example, downloading programmes or clips from the RTE, TV3, TG4 or BBC websites or the RTE Player, or from sites like YouTube does not, nor will not under the new legislation, require a television licence.



I hope that this addresses your concerns.



Yours sincerely

Nice Broadcasting Policy Person
Broadcasting Policy Division

Department of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources




Annex A



Section 140 of the Bill defines a television set as follows:



“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus



This definition should be read in conjunction with section 2 of the Bill which defines a broadcasting service as follows:



“broadcasting service” means a service which comprises a compilation of programme material of any description and which is transmitted, relayed or distributed by means of an electronic communications network, directly or indirectly for simultaneous or near-simultaneous reception by the general public, whether that material is actually received or not, and where the programmes are provided in a pre-scheduled and linear order, but does not include:

(a) a service provided in a non-linear manner where each user of the service chooses a programme from a catalogue of programmes, or

(b) other audio and audiovisual services provided by way of the Internet;



In addition under section 142(3) of the Bill the Minister is further empowered to exempt classes of devices falling within the definition of a television set from any television licensing requirement.





Annex B



Section 1(1) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1972 as amended by section 2 of the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1988 states…

"Television set" means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy capable of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus."

Same email I got this afternoon.

watty

Random wrote: »

So, you have no TV / PC / Laptop / Mobile phone / whatever in your house. You decide you're going to build a new extension. The guy comes out and starts to draw up some plans on his laptop while talking you through it.

You need a TV License for this?

****

Under current license scheme, a portable TV away from home, is covered by your license at home. As long as the portable TV is battery powered outside your home.

STB

watty wrote: »

Under current license scheme, a portable TV away from home, is covered by your license at home. As long as the portable TV is battery powered outside your home.

No. That was done away with years ago Watty. The licence is not portable, unless you are changing addresses permanently. You DO need a licence for say a holiday home.... etc

http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/GeneralTemplates/FAQ.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b24D68E6B-0B76-48A7-A11E-ADE6D4D02F8A%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fAnPost%2fFAQs%2fTV%2bLicence%2bFAQs%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest#HolidayHome

So much disinformation in this thread. Most normal people watch programmes on actual tvs. A small minority do so on pcs (and of those I would imagine they also watch programmes on TV also). You dont pay anymore for both. Personally I dont think the spirit of the licensing regime is to catch people out.

jor el

STB wrote: »

So much disinformation in this thread. Most normal people watch programmes on actual tvs. A small minority do so on pcs (and of those I would imagine they also watch programmes on TV also). You dont pay anymore for both.

The warnings here are directed at people who currently don't have a TV, but may soon need a TV licence, if they own a computer. This applies to people who don't even watch Internet TV channels, as owning the equipment is enough to warrant needing a licence. Anyone who currently has a TV, or TV tuner in a computer, should have a licence, and this new legislation will have no effect.

If my reading of the above statements are correct, then live TV streaming, where the user does not get a choice on when it starts, would be covered by the legislation, unless they are specifically exempted by ministerial order.

STB wrote: »

Personally I dont think the spirit of the licensing regime is to catch people out.

No, but the new bill changes that, and until I see clarification of the wording, I think it could in future catch people out unfairly.

Belfast

watty wrote: »

One TV license covers any number of TV tuners at home.

each laptop used in a company car might need one.