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Best Get Your TV Licence Sorted

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  • 05-05-2009 2:16pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭


    The government has noted that the best dynamic databases of who is living where at a given time are the Broadband and Midband carriers .

    They are going to define all DSL and Mobile Midband BB services as a Television system during the summer. RTE Needs the money you see.

    The Broadcasting Bill 2009 is shortly becoming the Broadcasting Act 2009

    http://193.178.1.235/documents/bills28/bills/2008/2908/B29c08D.pdf

    Co-Incidentally RTE launch their online player as the Bill passes its final Dáil stages ...maybe not co incidentally, go to page 142 of that link above aka "Part 9 the Television Licence"

    To Section 140 first, Key Definitions.
    140.—(1) In this Part—
    “apartment” means a self-contained residential unit in a building that
    comprises a number of such units;);
    “premises” means land, a vehicle, a structure of any kind whether
    attached or affixed to the land or not and includes a part of a building
    occupied as a separate dwelling whether or not the occupier with any
    other person shares any portion of it or any accommodation, amenity
    or facility in connection with it;
    “television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
    and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
    reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
    the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
    assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

    That which is NOT a Television set has to be EXCLUDED by ministerial order . If a Laptop can receive RTE iPlayer in Ireland it shall be 'licencable' unless it is excluded by order of Minister Eamon Ryan . You can always email him and ask yourself . Minister Ryan is great at answering th'oul emails God bless him.

    Section 142 . The Power Of The Minister to Define what a "Television Set" is ( by exclusion) ......is absolute.
    142.—(3) This section does not apply to a television set, which is of a
    class or description for the time being declared by an order of the
    Minister to be a class or description of television set to which this
    section is not to apply.

    and the collection of the licence fee can NOW be contracted out to YOUR BB provider as well as to An Post .

    Section 145 . Collection Agents can be anybody, not just An Post .
    145.—(1) In this section “issuing agent” means An Post or 35
    another person designated by the Minister under subsection (3).
    (2) Subject to subsection (12), an issuing agent may, on payment
    of the appropriate licence fee, issue on behalf of the Minister a television
    licence in accordance with this Part.
    (3) The Minister may by order designate a person other than An Post to be an issuing agent for the purposes of this section other than
    subsection (2).
    (4) An issuing agent may—
    (a) collect fees in respect of television licences

    You have nothing to fear if you already have a TV licence .

    If your ISP blocks RTE Player you have quite a strong case . No RTE by other means

    However if you have BB and no Telly they can now get you if you can receive RTE Player over BB in your household .

    This would mean that any device that can run a Flash Player , iPhone , Browser , PS3 , Handhelds etc etc will beome a Television set unless Minister Ryan excludes it from his 'list' .

    Note further that a CAR or BUS is to be separately licenced if there is a TV in the dash for example or if a handheld device with tuner is used in the car or if it has S Band Satellite Capability seeing as Eutelsat got their W2A bird up a month back and will shortly offer their "exciting and innovative range of entertainment" to people on the move or indeed stuck in a jam on the M50 .

    That is because a CAR is a separate "premises" to your house under the definition of premises in Section 140 . Of course you can always park your Car IN your house when the inspector calls and say Nyah Boo out the front window at him :p


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭crawler


    Oddly enough....or maybe not....the VERY same thing crossed my mind the day RTE player launched.....I thought I was being paranoid!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Of course the carriers must apply to become Issuing Agents too . An Post sold 1.43m licences last year in a country with 1.6m households and probably 130k businesses with a TV .

    Thats 300k licences up for grabs if you have a database :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭babaloushka


    The coalman passes my door twice a day and I am 'capable' of stopping him to ask for a bag - but I don't do so and he doesn't get paid. While I am covered because I do have a household TV license, if I only had my PC/laptop (which I don't use to watch TV) I'd be very narked to have to license it because it was now 'capable' of receiving TV programmes through the RTE player.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    it's a good job they don't have a separate radio licence or they'd be taxing people with fillings* in their teeth! :pac:

    *yes, i know it was mythbusted, but you never know. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    RTE should just give everyone who has paid their license an account on rte.ie so that they can access the RTE player. This seems more logical than what they are trying to do.

    If they think I'm paying a TV License fee when I have no TV, they have another thing coming. I never use the RTE player, so they would need to prove I was using it in order to charge me for this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,280 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    vibe666 wrote: »
    it's a good job they don't have a separate radio licence or they'd be taxing people with fillings* in their teeth! :pac:

    *yes, i know it was mythbusted, but you never know. :)


    so this now means if you bring a 'midband' 3g dongle with you camping with your wifi enabled IPOD,technically you require a tv licence for your 30 euro lidl tent?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    [-0-] wrote: »
    If they think I'm paying a TV License fee when I have no TV, they have another thing coming. I never use the RTE player, so they would need to prove I was using it in order to charge me for this.

    First off, I agree with you. :)

    AFAIK, you have to have a license if you own any equipment capable of receiving television. Now, I think this is nonsense classifying a PC as a TV but I think that's what they're doing and I don't think there's anything we can do to stop it. :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It should have to meet minimum quality contraints of Resolution and Content before they call it TV :)

    Actually RTE doesn't matter because if you have only FTA satellite (No Irish TV) you need a licence. Someone somewhere does decent TV quality on the Internet. (I get quite good German TV via BB), so yes, if your BB is good enough and has "broadcast" quality Live TV , even now already, technically you need a TV licence. It's not just about if you watch RTE, but a Tax on TV viewing, however it's "received".

    Midband (and most BB) isn't actually good enough for full resolution (say 544 x 576 as that's what ITV uses on Satellite) @ 25 i FPS even in MPEG4.

    I think only "real" IPTV/ VOD should count as TV watching. Not rubbish YouTube quality of RTE iPlayer.


    BB connections with less than 6Mbps peak time download speed should be exempt as it's not really practical to have a "proper" TV service and use the Internet on less. At least that's what we should tell them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Akrasia wrote: »
    so this now means if you bring a 'midband' 3g dongle with you camping with your wifi enabled IPOD,technically you require a tv licence for your 30 euro lidl tent?

    As long as it runs on it's own batteries it counts as Portable TV and comes under your home TV licence. It when it's main powered at another location that counts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    First off, I agree with you. :)

    AFAIK, you have to have a license if you own any equipment capable of receiving television. Now, I think this is nonsense classifying a PC as a TV but I think that's what they're doing and I don't think there's anything we can do to stop it. :mad:

    Without trying to sound over the top, the law is a minefield and could easily be challenged. Firstly, how do they define what a computer is? Believe it or not, my toilet is on the Internet. I have attached a sensor and an ethernet cable to the toilet, and every time the toilet flushes it tweets on twitter. Technically, this toilet is capable of 'receiving television'. - but it cannot interpret it. Now, if I was to add a few more mods to the toilet.. a very small version of linux on a chip, with X windows and a web browser... could they charge me? RTE's Player uses Flash... what if I don't have flash enabled in my browser? Technically, I do not have software capable of 'receiving television'.

    Maybe that's a bad example, but if they want to attempt to charge me for this, then they better be prepared to prove I was using the service.

    Also, what if my mate has paid his license.. he comes over to my house and uses my Internet connection on his laptop to watch the RTE Player. Am I liable? He has already paid his license and I don't have a computer that is capable of playing it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭AntiRip


    [-0-] wrote: »
    I have attached a sensor and an ethernet cable to the toilet, and every time the toilet flushes it tweets on twitter.

    You tweet when you're on the toilet!:D


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    [-0-] wrote: »
    Believe it or not, my toilet is on the Internet. I have attached a sensor and an ethernet cable to the toilet, and every time the toilet flushes it tweets on twitter.

    That's awesome :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 189 ✭✭ceret


    Can you get the RTÉ player to work on Linux? In which case it doesn't count for me as an Ubuntu user.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    [-0-] wrote: »
    Without trying to sound over the top, the law is a minefield and could easily be challenged. Firstly, how do they define what a computer is? Believe it or not, my toilet is on the Internet. I have attached a sensor and an ethernet cable to the toilet, and every time the toilet flushes it tweets on twitter. Technically, this toilet is capable of 'receiving television'. - but it cannot interpret it. Now, if I was to add a few more mods to the toilet.. a very small version of linux on a chip, with X windows and a web browser... could they charge me? RTE's Player uses Flash... what if I don't have flash enabled in my browser? Technically, I do not have software capable of 'receiving television'.

    Maybe that's a bad example, but if they want to attempt to charge me for this, then they better be prepared to prove I was using the service.

    Also, what if my mate has paid his license.. he comes over to my house and uses my Internet connection on his laptop to watch the RTE Player. Am I liable? He has already paid his license and I don't have a computer that is capable of playing it.

    I know what you mean, I do agree. I'm sure they'll have a definition of a PC, I don't know what, I'm not a lawyer or politician, but they'll have one. Once you have one, then you'll need a TV license. I'd say iPods etc will be covered too.

    A TV license belongs to an address not a person so you would be liable, same as him bringing a TV over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    ceret wrote: »
    Can you get the RTÉ player to work on Linux? In which case it doesn't count for me as an Ubuntu user.

    Yes, just install the flash player for firefox.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    ceret wrote: »
    Can you get the RTÉ player to work on Linux? In which case it doesn't count for me as an Ubuntu user.

    It only doesn't count if they specified Windows PC (please let them do this) but if you can view it, they'll expect you to pay for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,280 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    [-0-] wrote: »
    RTE should just give everyone who has paid their license an account on rte.ie so that they can access the RTE player. This seems more logical than what they are trying to do.

    If they think I'm paying a TV License fee when I have no TV, they have another thing coming. I never use the RTE player, so they would need to prove I was using it in order to charge me for this.
    ya think they would, more likely they'd issue a summons and you'd have to prove you weren't using it (something ridiculous like proving that you never installed flash and had a firewall that blocked all streaming media)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 483 ✭✭Selkies


    Imagine I have a laptop but no broadband, what happens when I connect to someone elses wireless network legally and watch rte videos.

    If they want to put a tax on the internet, fine! Then create an internet tax!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    A TV license belongs to an address not a person so you would be liable, same as him bringing a TV over.


    That's interesting. So lets say a failed firmware upgrade from my ISP disables my wireless security on my router and as a result, my neighbour uses my DSL line to watch the RTE Player while I'm at work and I don't realise the wireless security is disabled. Surely my ISP would be liable.

    They really need to 'tighten' the law on this, and if they don't I will be happy to challenge it. They chose to broadcast without giving each TV License holder an account on the site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Heathen


    GRRRR this really annoys me...

    I have a production studio that i am soon to be installing a 10mb line, however it will not be used for internet, its merely a way of me remote linking to my studio as i do a lot of work offsite and need to be able to access the 6 computers that run in the studio, and for sending and recieving workloads to and from the studio.. why on earth should i have to pay for a TV licence for my little studio? its in an industrial unit not a residence and the line will be used for WORK not play!! i have a BB connection at home for watching stuff.. this one is purely for working.. i presume its going to be yet another law passed without a vote by those clowns up in the dail!!

    Rip Off Ireland at its best!! :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭hightower1


    and how about if they ever get flash based apps sorted on the iPhone, you'll need a tv licence for that then also.....

    Oh and your psp.... basically anything you can watch tv streams on needs a licence. lol, Yet another example of people in power creating rules about things they actually know very little about.

    Completely unrealistic idea that is dead before its even started, I am not worried in the slightest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Heathen


    hightower1 wrote: »
    Completely unrealistic idea that is dead before its even started, I am not worried in the slightest.

    i completely aggree with you man, but unfortunatly once them gimps up here smell the green they will rubber stamp the approval of it and we can like it or lump it.. as usual... :mad:

    i was of the understanding that they are servants of the people? not the other way around? well i stand corrected.... again!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    [-0-] wrote: »
    That's interesting. So lets say a failed firmware upgrade from my ISP disables my wireless security on my router and as a result, my neighbour uses my DSL line to watch the RTE Player while I'm at work and I don't realise the wireless security is disabled. Surely my ISP would be liable.

    They really need to 'tighten' the law on this, and if they don't I will be happy to challenge it. They chose to broadcast without giving each TV License holder an account on the site.

    Your focusing in the wrong area. It's not about iPLayer, wireless, firmware etc. If you have the facility to receive TV (by their definition) in your home. You need a TV license. I think it is total BS and you are right to challenge it. I would expect and internet connection would be enough to need a TV license or anything that can receive the internet (possibly). The failed firmware update (example) is irrelevant. Once you have the connection you'll probably need the license.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It is entirely up to Minister Ryan to define the schedule of devices , possession of one of which shall render a household liable to purchasing a TV licence . That power is left to him and him alone by law.

    Minister Ryan will gladly clarify whether iPhones or ubuntu boxes will be on his list or not, it is unfair to expect anybody to purchase a currently non licenced device without knowing whether this will render them liable to an annual TV licence of €170 thereafter .

    You need but email him !


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    “television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
    and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
    reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
    the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
    assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

    It refers to Broadcast, so downloading a repeat would not count.

    General reception I think excludes streaming - but am not too sure about that.

    And besides most video phones that can receive DVB-T would need a license too and I don't think they are enforcing it.

    On linux you can easily setup VLC to stream TV in ASCII , so you could watch it on a VT52


    I think the intention was to target devices like TV tuner cards which have always been covered by the license terms.

    But what is the story with MPEG2 cards, as they won't pick up Irish DTT ?? :pac:


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The number of phone lines are falling so the phone dB no longer lists the vast majority of households and besides the people too stingy to pay for a license would probably tend to cancel the line too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭hellboy99


    Does this mean the fee will be going up in the near future :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Wcool


    Wouldn't it be better just to abolish this whole idea of that 20th century idea that is a TV license?
    And pay RTE through a fixed government subsidy who get the money from general tax?

    No more extra bureaucratic, expensive apparatsjik to check if you have a license, and maybe a chance to do deals with neighbouring countries to share each others IP geolocation databases?

    It might also stop the rot on silly taxes and enforcement? What's next? iPod tax? public wifi tax?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,779 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Well times change and technology changes and we will always have taxes. I would totally agree that abolishing the licence fee in favour of funding from direct taxation would be better.

    However if there is going to be a licence fee system it seems to me very sensible to write the regulations to say every possible device is covered rather than trying to list what is included now and having that superseded by some new technology which might come along. Any Minister who would try to apply the fee to say an MP3 player at the moment would not get away with it and I think we have to trust that the law will be applied in a common sense fashion.


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ceret wrote: »
    Can you get the RTÉ player to work on Linux? In which case it doesn't count for me as an Ubuntu user.

    It;ll work its flash....an iphone however won't work ;)


This discussion has been closed.
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