DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

Sponge Bob

At least one journo has been annoying me about the following...so simply I'll tell yiz all

1. Did the BCI/BAI know about the MoU before the tender for pay DTT was launched.?
2. Did the BCI/BAI come to know about the MoU before the shortlisting and did they inform everybody who tendered.?
3. Did the BCI/BAI come to know about the MoU while the tenders were being negotiated and did they inform everybody LEFT in the process??
4. Why did Ryan announce the MoU during the Onevision negotiations but not during the Boxer negotiations. Why could it not wait?
5. Was the BAI creation 'hurried through' because the BCI knew about the MoU and never disclosed this material fact to all 3 bidders....leaving itself liable to roughly €5m worth of lawsuits in aggregate ...even including RTE which was NOT under the BCI but is under the BAI.

Watch out for FoI requests !!

Elmo

Sponge Bob wrote: »

1. Did the BCI/BAI know about the MoU before the tender for pay DTT was launched.?
2. Did the BCI/BAI come to know about the MoU before the shortlisting and did they inform everybody who tendered.?
3. Did the BCI/BAI come to know about the MoU while the tenders were being negotiated and did they inform everybody LEFT in the process??
4. Why did Ryan announce the MoU during the Onevision negotiations but not during the Boxer negotiations. Why could it not wait?
5. Was the BAI creation 'hurried through' because the BCI knew about the MoU and never disclosed this material fact to all 3 bidders....leaving itself liable to roughly €5m worth of lawsuits in aggregate ...even including RTE which was NOT under the BCI but is under the BAI.

1. Unlikely as it occurred a year or so after the launch of the competition.
2. No. But as posted here both UPC and TV3 knew that RTÉ had suggested such a move a few years earlier and the Greens had put it forward as a policy.
3. The BAI aren't the Dept. but they should be talking to one another. :mad:
4. Well it wasn't signed at that stage.
5. The BAI was created to create a level regulatory playing pitch between RTÉ, TG4 and the commercial operators. It was originally suggested in 1996 by Minister Higgins when he was setting up the BCI, Minister DeValera introduced the BCI. Its been on the cards for a number of years often pushed a sided by former FF ministers.

watty

I think the MOU is a red herring.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

At least one journo has been annoying me about the following...so simply I'll tell yiz all

1. Did the BCI/BAI know about the MoU before the tender for pay DTT was launched.?
2. Did the BCI/BAI come to know about the MoU before the shortlisting and did they inform everybody who tendered.?
3. Did the BCI/BAI come to know about the MoU while the tenders were being negotiated and did they inform everybody LEFT in the process??
4. Why did Ryan announce the MoU during the Onevision negotiations but not during the Boxer negotiations. Why could it not wait?
5. Was the BAI creation 'hurried through' because the BCI knew about the MoU and never disclosed this material fact to all 3 bidders....leaving itself liable to roughly €5m worth of lawsuits in aggregate ...even including RTE which was NOT under the BCI but is under the BAI.

Watch out for FoI requests !!

The first indication we get of discussions between the two governments was at a House of Commons committee hearing with UTV last May (after Boxer had withdrawn).

The discussion leading to the MoU may have begun early 2009 following the release of the Dept of Comms policy document on the release of spectrum for the Digital Dividend which would have to be coordinated with the UK.

The MoU is primarily about coordinating analogue switchoff on both parts of the island and having a coorinated information campaign. Secondly the document deals with the provision of TG4 and RTÉ in NI and BBC down here.

The BAI/BCI process started in late 2007, early 2008. The MoU wasn't signed until 2 years later early 2010.

Don't see why the BAI/BCI would have been involved in the MoU discussions, the Dept yes, Comreg possibly.

1./2. Highly unlikely, discussions on the MoU probably didn't begin until a year later and signed 2 years later.
3. Possibly
4. Negotiations didn't conclude until late 2009, was due to be announced in Nov I believe but didn't happen until Feb this year. Any further delay would reduce the time available for the coordination planning meetings based on the MoU, a number of which have taken place already.
5. The opposite in fact, the BAI was created by the Broadcasting Act which took over a year to become law.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

I think the MOU is a red herring.

We seem to have allot of Red Herrings.

FTA Rugby: because according to Matt Copper it was diverting us from the DTT issue, yet Easy TV pulled out a week before that happened and I can't imagine that the Minister thought the IRFU would be so vehemently against such as move.

And the MOU? I will do a U-turn on this to make myself look foolish and no one will ever notice what else is going on?

Surely Red Herrings are used to divert attention from a bad thing to a good thing not to divert attention from one bad thing (DTT) to two bad things (MOU and FTA Rugby).

It is a said state of afairs when the Dept and BAI can't have some impressive news to spout. PR spin has really gone down hill.

Oddly this reminds me of something Dermot Ahern did as Minister.

Sponge Bob

The carrying of TG4 in NI is part of the Good Friday agreement from 1998

"… the British Government will ...........explore urgently with the relevant British authorities, and in co-operation with the Irish broadcasting authorities, the scope for achieving more widespread availability of Teilifis na Gaeilige in Northern Ireland;"

But the 'scope' was constrained by a lack of spectrum until ASO. I am not sure when RTE and the BBC...the state broadcasters.....got added to the mix. An FoI should flush that out

carrolls

watty wrote: »

I think the MOU is a red herring.

Its just that it is extremely annoying to a lot of people that we are giving RTE free (paid for with our license fee) to the North, and getting nothing in return. All at the whim of a minister who consistently fails to see the big picture. Filed under Water charges, Irish Rugby etc

Elmo

Sponge Bob wrote: »

But the 'scope' was constrained by a lack of spectrum until ASO. I am not sure when RTE and the BBC...the state broadcasters.....got added to the mix. An FoI should flush that out

But the scope hasn't change the Minister stated that he wanted the PBSs on DTT on both sides of the boarder. The MOU isn't the Good Friday Agreement.

As pointed out UPC, Sky, RTÉ and TV3 all pay BBC Worldwide millions for rights to their products. (Pointed out in an article were both TV3 and UPC agree).

All at the whim of a minister who consistently fails to see the big picture.

This is nothing new and it won't seem to get old. It is more likely to be lobbyists and civil servants who have the whims and can't see the bigger picture. Problem is Ministers seems to listen to them.

Sponge Bob

Elmo wrote: »

But the scope hasn't change the Minister stated that he wanted the PBSs on DTT on both sides of the boarder. The MOU isn't the Good Friday Agreement.

The MoU is the first practical application of part of the good friday agreement of 1998 along with some creep regarding BBC and RTE.

watty

carrolls wrote: »

Its just that it is extremely annoying to a lot of people that we are giving RTE free (paid for with our license fee) to the North, and getting nothing in return. All at the whim of a minister who consistently fails to see the big picture. Filed under Water charges, Irish Rugby etc

But we have always tried to do that. Longford, Donegal, Dundalk TX. the 32 county thing.

There is no obligation on BBC, UTV etc even under MOU to pay costs of being on DTT here. We can do it if we want to, but we would have to pay somehow. Frankly compared to Sat cost (zero), N.I. TV on Irish DTT at Irish Licence payer expense is stunningly bad value. I don't want to pay extra Tax or Licence fee to cover it for < 20% of people that don't have BBC/ITV and don't want a dish. The NI taxpayer/BBC certainly won't.

The MOU doesn't pay the Electricity bills.

Elmo

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The MoU is the first practical application of part of the good friday agreement of 1998 along with some creep regarding BBC and RTE.

I suppose it is a natural progression that all PBSs would become available. I thought TG4 was already available in some analogue sites in NI?

Mr McBoatface

carrolls wrote: »

Its just that it is extremely annoying to a lot of people that we are giving RTE free (paid for with our license fee) to the North, and getting nothing in return.

I'm sure many British licences payers are extremely annoyed that Irish people get thier PSB channels BBC, ITV, CH4 via Freesat or Free to Air satellite. I don't see too many Irish license payers complaining about that. I agree with watty it a Red Herring

watty

Elmo wrote: »

I suppose it is a natural progression that all PBSs would become available. I thought TG4 was already available in some analogue sites in NI?

Black Mountain on Analogue I think.

But maybe 60% to 70% can pickup RTE /TG4/TV3 (analogue) from our TX.
Also Virgin has Irish TV on cable.
Sky pay TV has RTE1,RTE2,TG4 but not TV3 on Satellite.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The MoU is the first practical application of part of the good friday agreement of 1998 along with some creep regarding BBC and RTE.

Elmo wrote: »

I suppose it is a natural progression that all PBSs would become available. I thought TG4 was already available in some analogue sites in NI?

watty wrote: »

Black Mountain on Analogue I think.

But maybe 60% to 70% can pickup RTE /TG4/TV3 (analogue) from our TX.
Also Virgin has Irish TV on cable.
Sky pay TV has RTE1,RTE2,TG4 but not TV3 on Satellite.

I think the transmission of analogue TG4 from Divis -covering Belfast - from Mar 2005 was probably the first practical application of that part of the Good Friday Agreement.

Kensington

carrolls wrote: »

Its just that it is extremely annoying to a lot of people that we are giving RTE free (paid for with our license fee) to the North, and getting nothing in return.

They get a significantly larger advertising market than they otherwise would if they were not available in NI...

endakenny

carrolls wrote: »

Its just that it is extremely annoying to a lot of people that we are giving RTE free (paid for with our license fee) to the North, and getting nothing in return. All at the whim of a minister who consistently fails to see the big picture. Filed under Water charges, Irish Rugby etc

I agree with watty and jobyrne30. The difference between BBC and RTÉ is that the licence fee is not the only source of income for RTÉ. Given that UTV and Channel 4 accept ads from the Republic, I presume it is possible for RTÉ to accept ads from NI, not to mention the money that RTÉ earns from phone calls made from NI viewers to the Late Late Show, the All Ireland Talent Show and other RTÉ programmes.

endakenny

icdg wrote: »

It isn't a case of not being able to recieve satellite, rather, its that you aren't allowed satellite dishes in the majority of apartment complexes and certain managed estates. This is written into people's leases and they can't change them.

Surely this is something that Minister Ryan could look into. I don't see what objection a landlord would have to tenants erecting satellite dishes. Legislation on the issue should be considered.

Elmo

endakenny wrote: »

I agree with watty and jobyrne30. The difference between BBC and RTÉ is that the licence fee is not the only source of income for RTÉ. Given that UTV and Channel 4 accept ads from the Republic, I presume it is possible for RTÉ to accept ads from NI, not to mention the money that RTÉ earns from phone calls made from NI viewers to the Late Late Show, the All Ireland Talent Show and other RTÉ programmes.

The BBC are quite commercial while they don't effect the share of the advertising revenue they still have dual income.

scath

I think one possible option is a paired down Commercial DTT. Instead of 3 muxes+ 1 ASO, how about 2 muxes+1 ASO. Gift RTÉ a 3rd multiplex with the additional one allowing them to charge carriage to UK terrestrials (or would they have to pay royalties like UPC?) This could allow RTE to make some money back.

The advantage for Commercial DTT is that 8 channels less=lower security bond+lower spectrum charges+low multiplexing charges. This would probably suit someone like Sky who could offer HD channels on 1 mux and subscription channels on the other with perhaps adult channels on the 2012 mux or perhaps involvement with DVB-H or even DVB-T for mobiles.

Subscription on DTT is an essential to make the investment back. Its simply very difficult for RTÉ for just FTA, something easily forgotten in the eagerness for launch of Saorview. It is a business first and foremost even though we pay license fees which gives us some entitlement nominally in reality as to policy direction. Now that is a moot point but a business it is that the exchequer has to pay for.

I think the Irish Film Channel should come under TG4 as Elmo says and that 2nd space should be timeshared with DCTV, Cork City TV. Oireachtas TV should come under RTÉ as TG4 did for now I think as its cheaper to run though doesn't have ad breaks.

endakenny

Elmo wrote: »

The BBC are quite commercial while they don't effect the share of the advertising revenue they still have dual income.

The BBC's commercial TV income is confined to foreign operations e.g. BBC America, BBC Prime, the BBC World News channel and the provision of BBC 1, 2, 3 and 4 to cable providers in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Elmo

endakenny wrote: »

The BBC's commercial TV income is confined to foreign operations e.g. BBC America, BBC Prime, the BBC World News channel and the provision of BBC 1, 2, 3 and 4 to cable providers in Belgium and the Netherlands.

www.uktv.co.uk they own 50% and then they have their magazine titles including Lonely Planet.

You can add ROI to that list of countries that they provide BBC 1, 2, 3 and 4 too.

Sam Russell

The running cost of DTT is much less than that of analogue. The UHF analogue transmitters are in 'end of life' and would need to be replaced but new ones are not easily available. It will save RTENL money to go DTT. It would save them a lot more if the comm side had taken off.

RTENL will have new income streams from other comms businesses, and this will help their finances. I do not think there is a crisis in RTENL over DTT. In fact, it is a wonder that they are not pushing for an early ASO as it would stop the double illumination that is going on now. [Quadruple illumination from Mt Leinster!]

To my mind, the biggest disgrace is the total lack of publicity about DTT, and the complete absence of SAORview certified kit. Where is it?

endakenny

Elmo wrote: »

. You can add ROI to that list of countries that they provide BBC 1, 2, 3 and 4 too.

I know that UPC provides the BBC channels but cable is subscription-only. I guess that most people in ROI who watch BBC do so by FTA: satellite and terrestrial overspill.

watty

no
Actually BEFORE Digital over 70% had BBC/UTV.

Now almost 80% have PayTv. All PayTV includes BBC (though if you cancel Sky you still get BBC). UPC and Sky have similar number of customers (some people have both!).

We don't have figures for BBC Terrestrial and non-Digibox Sat reception.

Mr McBoatface

Sam Russell wrote: »

The running cost of DTT is much less than that of analogue. The UHF analogue transmitters are in 'end of life' and would need to be replaced but new ones are not easily available. It will save RTENL money to go DTT. It would save them a lot more if the comm side had taken off.

RTENL will have new income streams from other comms businesses, and this will help their finances. I do not think there is a crisis in RTENL over DTT. In fact, it is a wonder that they are not pushing for an early ASO as it would stop the double illumination that is going on now. [Quadruple illumination from Mt Leinster!]

To my mind, the biggest disgrace is the total lack of publicity about DTT, and the complete absence of SAORview certified kit. Where is it?

Agree 100%

endakenny

watty wrote: »

Now almost 80% have PayTv.

I'd say that the recession will decrease that figure significantly.

Sam Russell

endakenny wrote: »

I'd say that the recession will decrease that figure significantly.

And the publicity that will come with the launch of DTT. Most people are not aware of Freesat and FTA, or the fact that 60% of the population will get DTT from simple aerials (rabbit ears). Once that is well known, mass migration from $ky and UPC will occur, leaving just the sporties and movies to pay.

watty

DTT will only give the Irish Channels. The majority won't want hassle of change. PayTV won't drop below 75%.

Do you know how many people never stopped paying rent on an eircom handset? Despite Tesco SELLING basic handsets for less than the rental?

Mr McBoatface

watty wrote: »

DTT will only give the Irish Channels. The majority won't want hassle of change. PayTV won't drop below 75%.

Do you know how many people never stopped paying rent on an eircom handset? Despite Tesco SELLING basic handsets for less than the rental?

I have a PVR box with 7 day DTT/SAT EPG function that I built myself and it's super, my mates all want one (until I tell them the price:D) I have upgraded quiet a few PC to HTPC with DTT/SAT quad TV cards and the same software I use to make it a cheaper option for them. I think people are looking more at value for money than ever before, if a cheap-ish (200 - 250 Euro) mass produced PVR DDT/Sat combo box comes on the market which can give 7 day EPG for both I think alot of people will change.

If installation companies could offer an easy payment option on DDT/Sat combo boxes and systems arranged through a financial company to spread the cost over a 12 - 24 month period that would increase the take up of such systems. I honestly don't know what would be involved in doing this or if banks have this facility on offer any more but I know of a few security alarm company eircom phone-watch being one who offered such an arranged finance deal on the cost of installation and equipment a couple of years back.

carrolls

Kensington wrote: »

They get a significantly larger advertising market than they otherwise would if they were not available in NI...

Not the people who squander the license fee, ie RTE, but the people who actually pay the license fee, ie the public.