Next for Dunne

akindoc

Anybody that puts forth any kind of argument (and I mean ANY) that Ben Dunne can beat Juan Manuel Lopez really has not got a clue about boxing.

walshb

akindoc wrote: »

Anybody that puts forth any kind of argument (and I mean ANY) that Ben Dunne can beat Juan Manuel Lopez really has not got a clue about boxing.

I tend to agree FULLY. Look, Bernard is in the top league now and has achieved a lot fo himself so far, but he's not the worlds best and not by a stretch. There are three or four world champs and the RING rate
Dunne about 7th in the world. That's about it; he will never ever beat a Lopez or Vasquez or a Marquez. He's just not up to that level, on a good day, great day or superb day, he's just not up to the elite level

T-K-O

itouchmyself wrote: »

Because there is no topic Dunne is 2nd class to Lopez imo.... IM SORRY!!

Your right though on his day he is a good boxer though and really could out box anyone in the division with out a shadow off a doubt

.... until he gets hit!! !

What are you apologising for ?? :rolleyes:

And you comment in bold illustrates your knowledge of the division. 3-4 guys have devastating power the rest are fair game.

itouchmyself

T-K-O wrote: »

And you comment in bold illustrates your knowledge of the division. 3-4 guys have devastating power the rest are fair game.

Ellaborate there for me will I dont have a bloody clue how you make that out from that tbh!!!:rolleyes:

T-K-O

I would fear for Ben against the top 3-4. I would fancy his chances against the rest of the guys, you seem to think that anyone in the top ten would would KO Dunne with ease that just aint the case.

mark renton

I cant understand why people keep comparing Bernard to Lopez - Lopez has not really proven his worth as yet but has the potential to be one of the greats at a number of weights, and has the power to KO anybody

Outside of Lopez I could put a fair argument accross for Dunne to compete against anybody else in the division, and if he did get beaten it surely would not be because he was outboxed

itouchmyself

john47832 wrote: »

I cant understand why people keep comparing Bernard to Lopez - Lopez has not really proven his worth as yet but has the potential to be one of the greats at a number of weights, and has the power to KO anybody

Outside of Lopez I could put a fair argument accross for Dunne to compete against anybody else in the division, and if he did get beaten it surely would not be because he was outboxed

Ehhhhh I dont know maybe its something to do with them both been in the same weight division!!
Anyway youve your opinion, iv mine. Obviously neither going change it so talk to you in a year or so when Dunne is finished!
Seriously though its great Ireland has a "world champion" off sorts and all that, just wish people were a little bit more realistic about it thats all.

mark renton

:rolleyes:

unless you change your name I'm not commenting

Big Ears

akindoc wrote: »

Anybody that puts forth any kind of argument (and I mean ANY) that Ben Dunne can beat Juan Manuel Lopez really has not got a clue about boxing.

Round 1: Dunne lads a left hook which causes severe lacerations to Lopez's face, Lopez goes into his shell for 30 seconds(not used to dealing with a bad cut), referee calls the doctor over. Fight gets stopped, Dunne tko 1





There's my argument, I've another one centred around Lopez breaking his right arm

Andyfbt

Dunne is a world champion that is what he set out to achieve. I think we all know he probably wouldn't have a chance against the top guys but if he gets a Vegas fight out of it and a nice little purse then that is reward for the work put in over the years

joepenguin

akindoc wrote: »

Anybody that puts forth any kind of argument (and I mean ANY) that Ben Dunne can beat Juan Manuel Lopez really has not got a clue about boxing.

I disagree. My take on it is that anyone who puts forth an argument that Dunne would enter the contest the favourite probably doesnt know much about Lopez.

As for not having a clue about boxing I think thats taking it a bit far.

Lopez is the real deal and I hope he makes a real big name for himself but he is not unbeatable, he may have trouble with Dunnes style, Dunne could catch him cold, execute a good game plan, we could see an accidental clash of heads where Lopez is on the wrong end. Numerous possibilites really.

Lopez could see the Martinez fight and take Dunne lightly, especially when all these super fights are being talked of. eg talks of him fighting vasquez/cabellero/gamboa after Dunne etc.

Anywya with Dunnes status as wba ordinary champ I cant see this fight happening. Lopez is looking for bigger names, unification etc.

Big Ears

joepenguin wrote: »

I disagree. My take on it is that anyone who puts forth an argument that Dunne would enter the contest the favourite probably doesnt know much about Lopez.

As for not having a clue about boxing I think thats taking it a bit far.

Lopez is the real deal and I hope he makes a real big name for himself but he is not unbeatable, he may have trouble with Dunnes style, Dunne could catch him cold, execute a good game plan, we could see an accidental clash of heads where Lopez is on the wrong end. Numerous possibilites really.

Lopez could see the Martinez fight and take Dunne lightly, especially when all these super fights are being talked of. eg talks of him fighting vasquez/cabellero/gamboa after Dunne etc.

Anywya with Dunnes status as wba ordinary champ I cant see this fight happening. Lopez is looking for bigger names, unification etc.

Dunne's chances of beating Lopez are less than 5% imo, his chances of landing a hail mary shot and catching Lopez are very very very slim, obviously winning on a cut has a very slim chance, winning by injury has a very slim chance and there's not a hope in hell he goes 6 rounds with Lopez never mind 12 so winning a decision is out.

and that's coming from some who loves Bernard and would give him a very good chance against almost every other 122 lb fighter.



Edit: forgot DQ, Lopez hitting Dunne while he's on the ground is one of his best chances of victory.

T-K-O

itouchmyself wrote: »

Ehhhhh I dont know maybe its something to do with them both been in the same weight division!!
Anyway youve your opinion, iv mine. Obviously neither going change it so talk to you in a year or so when Dunne is finished!
Seriously though its great Ireland has a "world champion" off sorts and all that, just wish people were a little bit more realistic about it thats all.

And you need to be a little more honest in what you type. If I dont like a fighter - I'll tell ya and I wouldnt pussy foot around like the garbage above.

itouchmyself

T-K-O wrote: »

And you need to be a little more honest in what you type. If I dont like a fighter - I'll tell ya and I wouldnt pussy foot around like the garbage above.

garbage?! Im prity positive most people with agree with what iv said!

T-K-O

itouchmyself wrote: »

garbage?! Im prity positive most people with agree with what iv said!

"world champion"

of sorts :rolleyes:

Finished in a year

Yeah it's all positive. You are right on one thing you're not alone - it seems to be an Irish mentality.

akindoc

Big Ears wrote: »

Dunne's chances of beating Lopez are less than 5% imo, his chances of landing a hail mary shot and catching Lopez are very very very slim, obviously winning on a cut has a very slim chance, winning by injury has a very slim chance and there's not a hope in hell he goes 6 rounds with Lopez never mind 12 so winning a decision is out.

and that's coming from some who loves Bernard and would give him a very good chance against almost every other 122 lb fighter.



Edit: forgot DQ, Lopez hitting Dunne while he's on the ground is one of his best chances of victory.

I would agree with the 5%. It is entirely made up of Dunne winning on a freak cut, Lopez having a heart attack and dropping dead, Lopez hitting Dunne while he is down and getting DQd, Lopez getting shot by someone in the audience just as Dunne lands a shot and he goes down, Lopez breaking a leg as he walks around the ring, Lopez twisting his ankle and being unable to fight and Lopez breaking both hands as he throws his first one two and is unable to throw more punches.

In other words, Lopez would walk through Dunne in one round.

itouchmyself

T-K-O wrote: »

"world champion"

of sorts :rolleyes:

Finished in a year

Yeah it's all positive. You are right on one thing you're not alone - it seems to be an Irish mentality.

Im afraid to tell you it aint about the Irish mentality in this case its just the reality!

walshb

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here. Dunne has won a version of a version of a world belt and has still to defend this belt and there are several major threats apart from the two to three real no go fights for Dunne.

1. Juan Manuel Lopez
2. Israel Vazquez
3. Rafael Marquez
4. Celestino Caballero
5. Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym
6. Toshiaki Nishioka
7. Bernard Dunne
8. Rendall Munroe
9. Bernabe Concepcion
10. Ricardo Cordoba
11. Daniel Ponce de Leon
12.Jhonny González
13. Antonio Escalante
14. Kiko Martinez
15. Steve Molitor

Now, the six ahead of him are very very real threats and there is a few
below him, most notably the one who destroyed him, and Ponce. I don't believe Dunne has much chance at all against Ponce.
I suppose that we can realistically remove Vasquez and Marquez from this list, and maybe Caballero too

He has the beatings of Molitor and Rendell, but neither are gimmes'
Steve did beat a guy I fancied recently, Ruiz, who would be a major
threat to Dunne. He's a very good digger and very aggressive

Also, Antonio Escalante is IMO far too dangerous and hard hitting, and he
is ranked 13

I really think that Peter's and Dunne will try and wriggle out of the
mandatory against Poonsawat, and they are right to. Give Bernard
and easy defence, or easier defence.

aragiav

itouchmyself wrote: »

Ehhhhh I dont know maybe its something to do with them both been in the same weight division!!
Anyway youve your opinion, iv mine. Obviously neither going change it so talk to you in a year or so when Dunne is finished!
Seriously though its great Ireland has a "world champion" off sorts and all that, just wish people were a little bit more realistic about it thats all.

Why would Dunne be "finished" in a year?

T-K-O

walshb wrote: »

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here. Dunne has won a version of a version of a world belt and has still to defend this belt and there are several major threats apart from the two to three real no go fights for Dunne.

1. Juan Manuel Lopez
2. Israel Vazquez
3. Rafael Marquez
4. Celestino Caballero
5. Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym
6. Toshiaki Nishioka
7. Bernard Dunne
8. Rendall Munroe
9. Bernabe Concepcion
10. Ricardo Cordoba
11. Daniel Ponce de Leon
12.Jhonny González
13. Antonio Escalante
14. Kiko Martinez
15. Steve Molitor

Now, the six ahead of him are very very real threats and there is a few
below him, most notably the one who destroyed him, and Ponce. I don't believe Dunne has much chance at all against Ponce.
I suppose that we can realistically remove Vasquez and Marquez from this list, and maybe Caballero too

He has the beatings of Molitor and Rendell, but neither are gimmes'
Steve did beat a guy I fancied recently, Ruiz, who would be a major
threat to Dunne. He's a very good digger and very aggressive

Also, Antonio Escalante is IMO far too dangerous and hard hitting, and he
is ranked 13

I really think that Peter's and Dunne will try and wriggle out of the
mandatory against Poonsawat, and they are right to. Give Bernard
and easy defence, or easier defence.

Like I have always said the guys at the top are special fighters. There is not many divisions stack with talent like the one above. The rest are fair game for Dunne - competitive fights that could go either way.

walshb

T-K-O wrote: »

Like I have always said the guys at the top are special fighters. There is not many divisions stack with talent like the one above. The rest are fair game for Dunne - competitive fights that could go either way.

I disagree and think that the Ponce and Antonio Escalante fights
are not competitive and that Dunne would be very much the underdog; and
both these fighters are below him in the ratings

T-K-O

walshb wrote: »

I disagree and think that the Ponce and Antonio Escalante fights
are not competitive and that Dunne would be very much the underdog; and
both these fighters are below him in the ratings

I'm a big fan of De Leon and ranked him very highly but unless he comes back big this year I feel he may be exposed. He's the type of guy Dunne could really frustrate. We all know the guy has huge power but he aint much of a boxer.

Escalante is still some what of an unknown and still has it all to prove.

walshb

Well, both can bang and both come to bang and the fact that Dunne doesn't bang will not deter these two or earn their respect and whether one likes it or not, Dunne has poor punch resistance. Cordoba, who let's be honest, aint no puncher, had Dunne in all sorts of trouble. No way Bernard avoids flush shots for 36 minutes, no way! A betting man would make Ponce and Antonio heavy favorites


Bernard's defense has improved, but he still takes too much, as the Cordoba fight showed and when it's guys like Ponce and Antonio delivering the shots, that's bad news

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Well, both can bang and both come to bang and the fact that Dunne doesn't bang will not deter these two or earn their respect and whether one likes it or not, Dunne has poor punch resistance. Cordoba, who let's be honest, aint no puncher, had Dunne in all sorts of trouble. No way Bernard avoids flush shots for 36 minutes, no way! A betting man would make Ponce and Antonio heavy favorites


Bernard's defense has improved, but he still takes too much, as the Cordoba fight showed and when it's guys like Ponce and Antonio delivering the shots, that's bad news

Whatever about Ponce De Leon, Escalante's own chin has serious questions still over it after being sparked by Pastrana. Let's not presume the only way Dunne could beat him is to go all 12. Escalante does possess serious power and is aggressive and although I wouldn't recommend Dunne fighting him, Dunne would be able to outbox him for long periods and it's certainly not inconceivable he could hurt him.

Ponce De Leon's a different story, his chin is granite he was just caught by a great shot from Lopez.


I haven't see Molitor v Ruiz but I've heard Molitor looked dreadful, although he deserved a clear UD not the split it was. He's apparently now afraid of his own shadown because of the Caballero fight and doesn't seem to want to let his hands go. Don't think Ruiz is better than he is because of the Bautista fight, he's crude, can be outboxed, isn't that big a Super-Bantamweight and is predictable.

If what I've heard about the Molitor fight is true I'd very strongly fancy Dunne to beat him.

There's only one fighter outside the top 4 that I don't see Dunne having the potential to beat(Ponce De Leon). I'd have Nishioka and Gonzalez favourite over Dunne but I wouldn't rule him out against either and the rest are mostly pick em fights.

Talking about the top 4 though, I'm not sure Vasquez or Marquez really would be that bad opponents for Dunne. Both are rumoured to be going up to feather, however Marquez didn't look good in his comeback fight at all and the rumours are that Vasquez's eye isn't that great and with the wear and age of both of those men I feel they're there for the taking by someone.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Talking about the top 4 though, I'm not sure Vasquez or Marquez really would be that bad opponents for Dunne.

Are you serious? Look, the Cordoba fight itself should tell you that any fighter
with the punch will devestate Bernard. He was truly and badly hurt and Cordoba is not a puncher, and not close to the aggressive puncher that Ponce or Antonio are, not to mention Israel and Rafael.

Bernard holds a version of a belt, but to me, there are simpy too many men that are far too dangerous and Bernard should try to wriggle out of meeting any of them

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Are you serious? Look, the Cordoba fight itself should tell you that any fighter
with the punch will devestate Bernard. He was truly and badly hurt and Cordoba is not a puncher, and not close to the aggressive puncher that Ponce or Antonio are, not to mention Israel and Rafael.

Bernard holds a version of a belt, but to me, there are simpy too many men that are far too dangerous and Bernard should try to wriggle out of meeting any of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tso4HFDlbrY

Does that guy in the red trunks look like a top 5 Super-Bantamweight to you ?, does he look like a guy he would beat any of Lopez, Caballero, Nishioka or Ponce De Leon ?

Vasquez I suppose I'm making assumptions on, but he's had 4 arduous career shortening wars in a row, he's going to have been out of the ring for 18 months at least come his return(rumoured to be September), just like Marquez he's getting quite old for a Super-Bantamweight and he's got the eye problem.

I'm not saying Dunne would beat these guys, but if there was ever the time to have a go at them it's now. There's touger guys at the weight than these guys and you wouldn't get the same reward against all the rest.

walshb

Is he the force of old? No. Does that matter if he meets Dunne? No.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Is he the force of old? No. Does that matter if he meets Dunne? No.

If he had trouble landing that right hand(which used be a homing missile) against a 37 year old Mendoza, who was never good anyway then he'll struggle even more to land it against Dunne.

If Mendoza can land shots on him, then Dunne can land more and land cleaner.
Marquez's timing seems gone, his speed is gone, his athleticism seems gone, his work rate isn't as good, his jab is off. Marquez has been slightly funerable in his career but with a mix of a very good defence, good powers of recovery and loads of heart it hasn't affected him too much.

But with the rest of his physical powers haven't declined somewhat who's to say his punch resistance is as good as it used to be ?, I know I'm making assumptions and I know the most likely scenario would still be Marquez by knockout.

But it's not like a Lopez fight, it's not guaranteed Dunne would lose, I mean really look how bad Marquez looks there and look at the calibre of guy he's fighting. Now the lay-off probably did him no good, but Marquez is 34 and he's not getting any younger, and whatever about timing speed isn't something that's going to be missing for one fight(due to ring rust) and come back the next. To me Marquez looks done and there for the taking.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

But it's not like a Lopez fight, it's not guaranteed Dunne would lose

No, the only difference I would possibly consider is the fashion of the KO
loss. Lopez would dispatch Bernard in a round or two and Marquez, maybe 3 or 4 rds. Either way, both are lethal and will destroy Dunne.

Dunne should meet either Moliter or Munroe and if he really has it
in him, go and offer Kiko the money and avenge that defeat

aragiav

walshb wrote: »

No, the only difference I would possibly consider is the fashion of the KO
loss. Lopez would dispatch Bernard in a round or two and Marquez, maybe 3 or 4 rds. Either way, both are lethal and will destroy Dunne.

Dunne should meet either Moliter or Munroe and if he really has it
in him, go and offer Kiko the money and avenge that defeat

Reading your posts you would think Dunne is a no hoper. Is there anyone in the top 15 you can see him beating 100% no doubts?