BSG 2003 S4E20/21 'Daybreak Part 2/Part 3' ***Spoilers***

degrassinoel

i've got a gut feeling the second and final question in that interview will be answered in 'Caprica'

"Have you ever stolen money from a cashbox?"

silvine

Good ending but the show had so many mysteries there was no way it could answer them all.

So let me get this straight:

Kara is an angel and Gaius and Six are angels too.

Gaius and Six's job was to take Hera and stop here being killed even though her mother was metres behind and could probably have done the same thing?!

Can someone explain why there's not other versions of Cavil running around plotting revenge? Were all the copies on him on that colony ship?

And all this talk of Starbuck being the harbinger of doom, it never happened.

Also know that it's all over:

Anyone else really hate Lee? I wanted him to die like the bitch he is.

Or think the chief was a complete nutter? He's off to live as a hermit like some kind of unabomber!

AnCapaillMor

Well in all fairness, alot had happened to chief, he possibly got the roughest ride in the entire series. his love turning out to be a cylon after he covered up for her, then he himself a cylon, kelly commiting suicide, his love returns and screws him over again, then he finds out his love in a previous life had killed kelly and it was'nt a suicide. If it was me i'd want to stay away from people too.

silvine

He got off lightly. Lots of people died because he was prepared to bonk a Boomer look-a-like on the head and let her be executed so the real Boomer could escape. Gaeta was shot for less.

Syferus

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Well in all fairness, alot had happened to chief, he possibly got the roughest ride in the entire series. his love turning out to be a cylon after he covered up for her, then he himself a cylon, kelly commiting suicide, his love returns and screws him over again, then he finds out his love in a previous life had killed kelly and it was'nt a suicide. If it was me i'd want to stay away from people too.

I'm just giving you a heads up - it's Cally, not Kelly.

Syferus

silvine wrote: »

He got off lightly. Lots of people died because he was prepared to bonk a Boomer look-a-like on the head and let her be executed so the real Boomer could escape. Gaeta was shot for less.

I don't think you can say letting one person you love escape is anywhere near as sinister or destructive as a planned muntiny. It's not like Tyrol planned it so it would turn out like it did.

The volunteer process for the misson to The Colony let prisoners be involved for what would amount to fighting for their freedom. To that, Tyrol was also one of the Final Five so it was important to have him around, even just to install Sam in the CIC.

Kiith

Well, thats it. The end of what is, imo, the best tv program for the last decade. Absolutly loved every minute of it. So much happened, and it answered most of the questions that i wanted answered. I actually like that they didnt spell everything out, and left quite a few things to be explained by the fans.

Probably the only main gripe i had with it is that there wasnt anything with Leoban (Kara's Leoban that is). Considering how long that saga went on, and how close they seemed, its a shame not to see a proper conclusion.

Pepe LeFrits

The Opera House reveal was a bit stupid.

Helo and Athena were originally meant to die - which would have made sense. However they decided to keep them around and ruined that whole thread.

The lack of Leoben annoyed me too. Seems they ran out of ideas for him.

cyrusdvirus

Am i the only one who reckons Racetrack wasn't dead? The hull was breached on the EWO's side, he was dead, so too the 2 marines, but she's in a pressure suit, we saw Apollo survive in a suit for a while when the resurection ship was knocked out.

HOWEVER, her ships hull was breached, so she couldn't jump out, so basically as soon as she fired off her weps, it was a case of choose how you die.

She would have been briefed on the plan for Anders to get the colony's gun platforms to stop firing, and as soon as they did open up again she fired off her nukes.

kevmy

silvine wrote: »

Good ending but the show had so many mysteries there was no way it could answer them all.

So let me get this straight:

Kara is an angel and Gaius and Six are angels too.

Gaius and Six's job was to take Hera and stop here being killed even though her mother was metres behind and could probably have done the same thing?!

Well it was Baltars job to bring Hera into the CIC but also by going through the series long religious conversion he helped convince Cavill to stop the fighting. I don't think Athena or Roslin would have done this.

silvine wrote: »

Can someone explain why there's not other versions of Cavil running around plotting revenge? Were all the copies on him on that colony ship?

All remaining Cylons seem to have been on the Colony. The colony apparently falls into the black hole as the nukes sent it out of orbit according to Ron Moore but the editing didn't make this clear. So no more bad Cylons

silvine wrote: »

And all this talk of Starbuck being the harbinger of doom, it never happened.

She was a harbinger of doom for the bad cylons. She also brought the human race to it's end as prophecised. Most people got the two mixed up and thought Kara was the harbinger of doom for the human race.

Manic Moran

kevmy wrote: »

All remaining Cylons seem to have been on the Colony. The colony apparently falls into the black hole as the nukes sent it out of orbit according to Ron Moore but the editing didn't make this clear. So no more bad Cylons

If the Raptor recon mission had been watching base ships jump in and out, one must assume that there are other base ships out there. They don't seem to have been at the colony when Galactica showed up.

But, Tyrol said there were no people where he was going. It was clearly supposed to indicate he'd live out his days as a hermit, not that he founded any 'tribe'.

You've got to admit, the similarity between the name and location is a bit of a coincidence.

NTM

Syferus

kevmy wrote: »

She was a harbinger of doom for the bad cylons. She also brought the human race to it's end as prophecised. Most people got the two mixed up and thought Kara was the harbinger of doom for the human race.

Well, if we're going to be honest - and I loved the finale - Starbuck wasn't even involved in the squence that lead to the destruction of The Colony, which of course was caused by inexpictably 'lucky' body movement by Racetrack.

It seems the writers had real trouble trying to comletely square away the prophecies they first put forth in Razor. You can say her return hearlded their demise, or that the hybrid was deliberately mis-leading, but neither seem fully satisifying for something so important to the plot.

Even though it'd be quite pointless to detail it in the the finale, I wonder what happened to Starbuck's 'angelic' viper?

kevmy

Syferus wrote: »

Well, if we're going to be honest - and I loved the finale - Starbuck wasn't even involved in the squence that lead to the destruction of The Colony, which of course was caused by inexpictably 'lucky' body movement by Racetrack.

It seems the writers had real trouble trying to comletely square away the prophecies they first put forth in Razor. You can say her return hearlded their demise, or that the hybrid was deliberately mis-leading, but neither seem fully satisifying for somthing so important to the plot.

Even though it'd be quite pointless to detail it in the the finale, I wonder what happened to Starbuck's 'angelic' viper?

All true enough. I've already stated that I didn't like how they ended Starbuck's story and how I thought they wrote themselves into a corner. Was just pointing out that the prophecies didn't say she was the harbinger of doom for the human race just that she would bring it to it's end.

telemachus

Didn't the renegade first hybrid they ran into prophesise that the colonials should not follow Kara, so I suppose he must be fibbing which is odd since everything else he says about the 7 cylons splintering, the four realising who they are and the eventual unity of the two sides is accurate.

Found it now : "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. "

Tenger

telemachus wrote: »

Didn't the renegade first hybrid they ran into prophesise that the colonials should not follow Kara,

Found it now : "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. "

Deliberately misleading the humans so they wouldn't follow her and /get to our Earth/kill off the cylons perhaps? And it says she will lead the HUMAN race to its END. The end of their jouney for redemption? or something philosophical like that......................

telemachus

I would have thought so if it was one of the main cylon hybrids that said it, but this hybrid led a group that the main lot apparently wanted wiped out and doesn't have any real motive for attempting deception as he also seems to have forseen and accepted the death that's just about to befall him.

LoLth

I wonder if the quote means:

lead the human race to its end: lead them to earth

harbringer of Death , herald of the apocalypse: her ship appeared back in time on ruined earth and somehow sparked the nuclear war...

though this introduces time travel which just complicates things, unelss the hybrid knew Starbuck from previous cycles and warned them not to follow her in an attempt to break the current cycle ?

ah, i've just confused myself now

Pepe LeFrits

gatecrash wrote: »

Am i the only one who reckons Racetrack wasn't dead? The hull was breached on the EWO's side, he was dead, so too the 2 marines, but she's in a pressure suit, we saw Apollo survive in a suit for a while when the resurection ship was knocked out.

HOWEVER, her ships hull was breached, so she couldn't jump out, so basically as soon as she fired off her weps, it was a case of choose how you die.

She would have been briefed on the plan for Anders to get the colony's gun platforms to stop firing, and as soon as they did open up again she fired off her nukes.

I thought so too at first, but there was a hole in her helmet's visor.

cyrusdvirus

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I thought so too at first, but there was a hole in her helmet's visor.

Was there? i didn't notice that. Have only seen it the once though

ktc1

[QUOTE=

Found it now : "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. "[/QUOTE]

"Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end." To the end of their journey, Earth II.

"She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death." For Cavil's Cylons.

"They must not follow her." Because it will lead to the end of the Cavil's Cylons. The hybrid has no interest in preserving human life, It doesn't want them to follow Kara to preserve Cylon life.

telemachus

But it's part of a group that Cavill and co want wiped out.... this is the original hybrid, who leads the older autonomous centurions and who would have no reason to save a cylon group who are their enemies and want them exterminated.

ArNosNaGaoithe

A few thoughts which I don't think have been mentioned (apologies if they have)

Yes Ron Moore didn't have it all planned out form the start but I still think we got a very coherent resolution that fits neatly with the whole show. If he hadn't said anything, I don't think there would be many saying he hadn't known how it would pan out

Hera: I think now we can look back at the whole show as being about "its" plan to bring Hera to our earth so she could become mitochondrial eve. The prophesies all ultimately ended up being about events that led to this. Note all Hera had to do was have one female child before dying to continue her mitochondrial line.

Humans: The humans on earth 150,000 years ago were all Homo sapiens subspecies. In africa it was Homo sapiens idaltu, who are believed to be the ancesters of Homo sapiens sapiens (us) so it ties in perfectly with Hera being the missing ingredient that allowed the idaltu to become fully sapient.
The colonials and cylons clearly didn't contribute significantly to the new species as they could only have done so by breeding with Hera's descendants, otherwise their mitochondria would still be around.

"It": For me it was the season 2 episode where we saw that Caprica 6 could see a virtual Baltar that was the key turning point. After this we knew there had to be an outside factor at work and that Virtual 6 had nothing to do with the cylons. So from then on I assumed the god being referred to was real, whether an advanced alien or a real god.

Kara: Kara was "primed" for her destiny- after all her father taught her the song, and she painted the maelstrom, so its not something that was only introduced late on. I don't think we were ever told exactly what surgical procedure was carried out on her by the cylons. And I agree she did die in the maelstrom. Also her last words to Lee indicate she understood what had happened now. In the podcast, Moore says any explanation they tried out was too star-trekky, so I think it was better not to explain it.
I'd compare the ending to 2001, actually explaining what it was instead of just showing its actions would have probably ruined the story.

Two final thoughts-
Tory was Tyrol's Fiancée before Cavil erased their memories, perhaps this is why she took pleasure in killing Cally at a subconscious level. And of course it means poor Tyrol actually strangled the true love of his life.

And finally- there was actually a major error in the finale- 150,000 years ago it was the middle of the Ice Age! So the shorelines shown were all wrong (plus the Sahara was fertile grassland then, not desert as shown) and theres no way Tyrol could have gone to Scotland given that it was buried under 3 miles of icecap. But then, perhaps the characters mostly settled by the shore as estuaries are particularly fertile, so all trace of them was wiped out as the sea rose at the end of the ice age. But we can forgive them one mistake...

Syferus

ArNosNaGaoithe wrote: »

Tory was Tyrol's Fiancée before Cavil erased their memories, perhaps this is why she took pleasure in killing Cally at a subconscious level. And of course it means poor Tyrol actually strangled the true love of his life.

I don't think it's apt to label Tory Tyrol's 'true love'. All of the final five chose differen paths when they foudn out what, and who, they were. Tyrol and Tory both knew of their shared past for a while beforehand, and Tyrol had no intention on a relationship, nor did Tory have any intention of tellin Tyrol about Cally.

Rand_alThor

Chiming in very late here but what they hey,

Have to say I really liked the last ep, 4/5, but mainly just for the pure action (although it would've been nice to have a more substantial, capable actor then Hotdog in a viper so we could connect with that more) and saying goodbye to the characters. I thought the actors did a pretty fantastic job. Couple of things felt like they were wrapped up far too quickly though.

-Baltar becoming a man and gaining Caprica's respect, and regaining her love.
-The Opera house 'mystery' was a contrived joke. An idea that underscored at least, the entire season two reduced to the simple need of Baltar and Caprica to walk into the CIC. I know, it got Tory killed eventually but Racetrack (RIP) would've still fired the nukes, very nearly the same result.

I'm not happy with the overall reasoning (or lack of) behind the plot conclusion. For our heroes (sorry) it end with the nearly certain belief that something has been guiding them all to this for predestined, concrete reasons. Then in the epilogue we discover that, oops, it just looks like it's all going to happen again. Oh noes, it looks like God (who doesn't like to be called that) got it wrong.

I also don't get Baltar's line right there, 'You know he doesn't like to be called that,.... oops silly me!' What is that because he says 'he'?

The reasoning behind abandoning all tech is a pretty big stretch but is a nice idea.

And Kara. So what was she meant to be? She died when she entered the malestrom. So what, she was an Angel? She effectively had no free choice/will? Her entire life was irreversably on a line to that moment? Then what, when she returned she was just a vision like head-Six/Baltar except everyone could see her? I can understand not wanting to give a Star Trek explaination but none at all is a cop out. You can dress it up whatever way you want to answer the mystical, psuedo-religious prophecy with more of the same is cheap. And unfortunately thats my what I'd have to say to Ron Moore.

The actors however, as stated were class. There were a few teary moments for me, Lee saying goodbye to his Da, and Adama and Roslyn's played the death scene very well. But then I guess I could have parental issues.

You have to feel for Lee though. Every single one of his good friends are gone. Granted, he didn't have many on Galactica but I mean, seriously, Kara (just poof, probably hardest of all) his Da and Roslyn who fought for his soul, and his wife, however understated a marriage it was. Now he's completely alone and not likely to make many new friends. Sucks.

Actually, his Da's in pretty much the same situation I guess, except that he choose it and he's getting on so he'll fit into the old hermit role.

Tyrol was a sad one too but all his troubles came before, ha, since season 1 really. He's not had a good time at all.

The rest got as good as they could expect I guess.

I thought it was a good end to a show that for a long time has been strife with rubbish mid-season episodes and been carried by the actors. Apart from a few (well plenty actually) season 2 moments, season 1 is how I'll choose to remember the show.

Syferus

Rand_alThor wrote: »

Chiming in very late here but what they hey,

Have to say I really liked the last ep, 4/5, but mainly just for the pure action (although it would've been nice to have a more substantial, capable actor then Hotdog in a viper so we could connect with that more) and saying goodbye to the characters. I thought the actors did a pretty fantastic job. Couple of things felt like they were wrapped up far too quickly though.

-Baltar becoming a man and gaining Caprica's respect, and regaining her love.
-The Opera house 'mystery' was a contrived joke. An idea that underscored at least, the entire season two reduced to the simple need of Baltar and Caprica to walk into the CIC. I know, it got Tory killed eventually but Racetrack (RIP) would've still fired the nukes, very nearly the same result.

I'm not happy with the overall reasoning (or lack of) behind the plot conclusion. For our heroes (sorry) it end with the nearly certain belief that something has been guiding them all to this for predestined, concrete reasons. Then in the epilogue we discover that, oops, it just looks like it's all going to happen again. Oh noes, it looks like God (who doesn't like to be called that) got it wrong.

I also don't get Baltar's line right there, 'You know he doesn't like to be called that,.... oops silly me!' What is that because he says 'he'?

The reasoning behind abandoning all tech is a pretty big stretch but is a nice idea.

And Kara. So what was she meant to be? She died when she entered the malestrom. So what, she was an Angel? She effectively had no free choice/will? Her entire life was irreversably on a line to that moment? Then what, when she returned she was just a vision like head-Six/Baltar except everyone could see her? I can understand not wanting to give a Star Trek explaination but none at all is a cop out. You can dress it up whatever way you want to answer the mystical, psuedo-religious prophecy with more of the same is cheap. And unfortunately thats my what I'd have to say to Ron Moore.

The actors however, as stated were class. There were a few teary moments for me, Lee saying goodbye to his Da, and Adama and Roslyn's played the death scene very well. But then I guess I could have parental issues.

You have to feel for Lee though. Every single one of his good friends are gone. Granted, he didn't have many on Galactica but I mean, seriously, Kara (just poof, probably hardest of all) his Da and Roslyn who fought for his soul, and his wife, however understated a marriage it was. Now he's completely alone and not likely to make many new friends. Sucks.

Actually, his Da's in pretty much the same situation I guess, except that he choose it and he's getting on so he'll fit into the old hermit role.

Tyrol was a sad one too but all his troubles came before, ha, since season 1 really. He's not had a good time at all.

The rest got as good as they could expect I guess.

I thought it was a good end to a show that for a long time has been strife with rubbish mid-season episodes and been carried by the actors. Apart from a few (well plenty actually) season 2 moments, season 1 is how I'll choose to remember the show.

While this may come across as glib, it is not intended in that way.

It's Roslin, not Roslyn.

popebenny16

chipping in even later. first im glad that my post last year about the relevance of the opening monologue of the original series "there are some who say that life here began out there" was borne out. more to the point though is that the original source of the original series inspiration - chariot of the gods - details lost civilisations that had batteries ect. that should fit in wiht the fact that the colonials did not leave everything on their ships - in fact they proabably stripped them for as much as they could get - and some maybe tried civilisations that eventually led to mya ect or even ones lost long ago (atlantis for the heck of it, tir na nog for another).

the hprase of God not being liked being called that - well, 150,000 years is a long time, maybe it's having a mid-supralife crisis and wants to be called chip or something.

as for the final story - there are more then just missing basestars - what about the cylons left on te 12 conolies? what happens to them?

as for hera being eve, that is perfectly acceptable, given that modern humans today can actually be traced backto a band of about 6000 people who managed to get through the last mass ice age. we are only talking about traces of her dna after all, to get to 6000 is not a huge number. becides, we could dig up adam somewhere in the future.

over all, i liked it. it was exciting, i liked the ending, i thought it also helped gumming some long estabished concepts together (zodiac being derived form the names of the colonies - the accents of the differnet colonies being spread around the world) and did something that a lot fo other shows should have done (helllllooooooo B5) and stopped at the end.

I gave it 4. all those cylons still out there and the terminator "dont you get it" ending robbed it for me in the end.

Calibos

Heres the thing though. The Zodiac and the Greco Roman colonial mytholgies survived 150,000 years but fire, the wheel and agriculture didn't?

popebenny16

the cultural things as a folk memory and distorted to what we call them today, fire made it i'd imagine**** and as for wheels and agriculture, again after the big freeze the race memory was intact.


**** depends if the colonials/golafrinchams had decided what colour fire should actually be, of course.

Calibos

Mod of Legal Issues........probably has career in Law.......requirement for which is a logical mind I would have thought.......thinks its logical that colonials managed to pass accents and mytholgies through 50,000 generations of decendants but didn't manage to pass the 'myths' of Fire, the wheel or argriculture which we know only appeared in the fossil record, 50,000, 7,000 and 6,000 years ago respectively.????

Admit it. The ending doesn't tie the colonial mythologies or accents to us in a rational logical way at all. If you do think its perfectly logical then remind me never to hire you as council !!!

(I tease of course, you are just more capable of suspension of disbelief than me and less of a galactica nerd...Its a TV show FFS Calibos! )

ArNosNaGaoithe

I disagree- 150,000 years later the asterisms would be very different. The zodiacal constellations today are nothing like those which existed then (although those visible from the 13th tribes earth were like our modern ones 150,000 yrs ago).

Also, the colonials and cylons contributed nothing culturally directly, just possibly some DNA, though it may be that only Hera and the idaltu actually contributed DNA to present day humans. We can explain the lack of evidence for them if we assume they settled on land that was flooded after the ice-age, destroying all trace of habitations or field markings.

The colonials obviously didn't really speak english, the gods names may just have been the english equivalent. And the real "god" was referred to as It not He. I chose to see It as a highly advanced alien species like whoever built the monolith in 2001.

And for Kara- there were never any prophesies about her nature being revealed, or that of It, or the "angels", all the actual prophesies were fulfilled, which was enough for me.