BSG 2003 S4E20/21 'Daybreak Part 2/Part 3' ***Spoilers***

AnCapaillMor

Tory was a b1tch when she went over to the cylons. I was just finishin up the boxset last night, in one of the deleted scenes she was the one who suggested to D'anna to start executing the hostages and was very anti fleet. She was very cold to Roslin too. Tory was the bad egg i would'nt be surprised if its revealed in the cylon film that she was somehow involved in the cylons revenge attack.

telemachus

Yeah, Tori was a bit of a strange one given that she was somewhat central being in the final five, she pretty much had less depth than any other semi-central character, she was the anti-baltar, where he did a procession of dubious things and redeemed himself she was more or less consistently horrible and charmless.

Syferus

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Tory was a b1tch when she went over to the cylons. I was just finishin up the boxset last night, in one of the deleted scenes she was the one who suggested to D'anna to start executing the hostages and was very anti fleet. She was very cold to Roslin too. Tory was the bad egg i would'nt be surprised if its revealed in the cylon film that she was somehow involved in the cylons revenge attack.

Not much of a chance of that.

Since Cavil basically air-locked all five of them after he was created by them that it's unlikely Tory was working with him, especially since here appearence as Billy's replacement occurred outside the remit of ''The Plan'' - that goes from before the Fall to mid-way through season 2.

It's unlikely she was up to much before that since it's see-through that her character just filled in for one whose actor refused to commit to a longer contract.

The Plan centers on Cavil and Anders, according to what I've read.

ManOfMystery

Some more thoughts on the finale ....

The Opera House - so it was the Galactica CIC all along. Seasons later, huge amounts of exposition, huge amounts of questions from us fans and all along the Opera House was really just an analogy for the final showdown on Galactica itself. The Final Five standing on that raised section (as they were imagined in white hoods) gave me goosebumps.

Lee Adama - I felt sad for him. He's grown a huge amount as a character and continues to toe this fine line between perfect soldier/pilot and political candidate. He has a good soul and carries his father's convictions ....... in other words, he knows the difference between right and wrong and isn't afraid to speak out. Nevertheless, despite being a sympathetic character, he is left alone in this finale and deserves our pity. I think we'd all liked to have seen him end up with Kara - with the flashbacks, it seems they were destined to be together from day one, given their chemistry, so it was surprising that she upped and vanished.

Kara Thrace (Starbuck) - So what is she exactly ............ angel? demon? a vision? something in Lee's head? My money is simply on 'messenger of God'. She's not good or bad. She's not here to sway the human race one way or another. She simply has a role to fulfil, and in those crucial moments when Galactica is waiting to jump, she finally realises her destiny, works out the code from the music and plots the jump co-ordinates. And thus the circle is complete - Kara Thrace finally fufills her role as the 'Harbinger of Doom' - only it's doom for the Cylons, who now have no way of finding Hera or recreating.

Helo/Valerii - Not a huge amount in character progression here, but I didn't expect them to feature heavily in the finale anyway. Helo offers up his life for his daughter but ultimately survives. In one sense they don't have a huge role in the finale in terms of screentime, but in another sense; their daughter is the 'mother' of the human race, so their role is critically important.

Laura Roslin - finally she reached the end of her journey. Her death, which was foretold so long ago, finally comes to pass on the one true 'Earth' as they know it. The flashback was confusing to me at first (what purpose could it serve?), but I came to realise that it highlighed a very important step in Roslin's life; the point where she decided not to pursue her own goals, but to work in politics for the greater good.
Her death was handled very well by Mary McDonnell, with some touching moments beforehand with Adama.

Tigh/Ellen - what is there to say? They finally end up together again, living off the rest of their days on Earth. Despite Ellen's earlier promiscuity and Sol's earlier drinking problem, they made it through all their difficulties and ultimately fulfilled their destiny - which is surely to be together.

Baltar/Caprica (the real ones) - Baltar finally stops thinking about himself and focuses on the greater good. I think we all knew that the finale would see some kind of end to his selfishness (one way or another), but did we see that the final conversation between Baltar and Cavill would decide the fate of two civilisations?

Baltar/Caprica (the imaginary ones) - Like Kara Thrace, we don't really know what they are. Angels? Messengers from God? God himself? No matter what, they raised some interesting points and added a huge spiritual dimension to this overly sci-fi show.

Tyrol - I knew sooner or later Tryol would end up finding out about Callie. And he finally did, the rage erupted. I for one was surprised that we suddenly went from the final five to the final four! But still, the look of anger on his face when he learned of Callie's fate was worth seeing.

Sam Anders - Bit of a sad ending for Sam. In one way, he fulfils his destiny (even as a professional sports player on Caprica he noted his gravitation towards the perfect mathematical model of life/physics ............. but in another way, we expected to see him live or at least be reunited with Kara Thrace - and this didn't happen. Instead we get a bittersweet ending with Sam flying the remainder of the fleet into our Sun to melt.


William Adama - Finally, the old man. His ending was a very sad one .............. destined to live out his days alone, without his son or his one true love. We can only guess as to whether he lives in peaceful solitude, enjoying his 'real' retirement ...................... or as to whether he longs to return to his longterm role as Admiral on the Galactica.

Awesome show, awesome finale.My only gripe is we didn't get to see Adama and Tigh doing the long goodbye, given their friendship.

Syferus

ManOfMystery wrote: »

The Opera House - so it was the Galactica CIC all along. Seasons later, huge amounts of exposition, huge amounts of questions from us fans and all along the Opera House was really just an analogy for the final showdown on Galactica itself. The Final Five standing on that raised section (as they were imagined in white hoods) gave me goosebumps.

I've seen similar sentiments a few times, but for me, and I hope most people, since Natalie, the rebel cylon leader, was shot dead by Athena in a Opera House/Galactica intercut it has been clear that the Opera House was Galactica.

As the symbolic and physical heart of human-cylon union, and with a half human, half cylon child the central figure, I thought it common knowledge that the Opera House was Galactica from at least then on. It's not like they could do any more besides shout ''GALACTICA = OPERA HOUSE'' to further that point.

noodler

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Some more thoughts on the finale ....

The Opera House - so it was the Galactica CIC all along. Seasons later, huge amounts of exposition, huge amounts of questions from us fans and all along the Opera House was really just an analogy for the final showdown on Galactica itself. The Final Five standing on that raised section (as they were imagined in white hoods) gave me goosebumps.

Lee Adama - I felt sad for him. He's grown a huge amount as a character and continues to toe this fine line between perfect soldier/pilot and political candidate. He has a good soul and carries his father's convictions ....... in other words, he knows the difference between right and wrong and isn't afraid to speak out. Nevertheless, despite being a sympathetic character, he is left alone in this finale and deserves our pity. I think we'd all liked to have seen him end up with Kara - with the flashbacks, it seems they were destined to be together from day one, given their chemistry, so it was surprising that she upped and vanished.

Kara Thrace (Starbuck) - So what is she exactly ............ angel? demon? a vision? something in Lee's head? My money is simply on 'messenger of God'. She's not good or bad. She's not here to sway the human race one way or another. She simply has a role to fulfil, and in those crucial moments when Galactica is waiting to jump, she finally realises her destiny, works out the code from the music and plots the jump co-ordinates. And thus the circle is complete - Kara Thrace finally fufills her role as the 'Harbinger of Doom' - only it's doom for the Cylons, who now have no way of finding Hera or recreating.

Helo/Valerii - Not a huge amount in character progression here, but I didn't expect them to feature heavily in the finale anyway. Helo offers up his life for his daughter but ultimately survives. In one sense they don't have a huge role in the finale in terms of screentime, but in another sense; their daughter is the 'mother' of the human race, so their role is critically important.

Laura Roslin - finally she reached the end of her journey. Her death, which was foretold so long ago, finally comes to pass on the one true 'Earth' as they know it. The flashback was confusing to me at first (what purpose could it serve?), but I came to realise that it highlighed a very important step in Roslin's life; the point where she decided not to pursue her own goals, but to work in politics for the greater good.
Her death was handled very well by Mary McDonnell, with some touching moments beforehand with Adama.

Tigh/Ellen - what is there to say? They finally end up together again, living off the rest of their days on Earth. Despite Ellen's earlier promiscuity and Sol's earlier drinking problem, they made it through all their difficulties and ultimately fulfilled their destiny - which is surely to be together.

Baltar/Caprica (the real ones) - Baltar finally stops thinking about himself and focuses on the greater good. I think we all knew that the finale would see some kind of end to his selfishness (one way or another), but did we see that the final conversation between Baltar and Cavill would decide the fate of two civilisations?

Baltar/Caprica (the imaginary ones) - Like Kara Thrace, we don't really know what they are. Angels? Messengers from God? God himself? No matter what, they raised some interesting points and added a huge spiritual dimension to this overly sci-fi show.

Tyrol - I knew sooner or later Tryol would end up finding out about Callie. And he finally did, the rage erupted. I for one was surprised that we suddenly went from the final five to the final four! But still, the look of anger on his face when he learned of Callie's fate was worth seeing.

Sam Anders - Bit of a sad ending for Sam. In one way, he fulfils his destiny (even as a professional sports player on Caprica he noted his gravitation towards the perfect mathematical model of life/physics ............. but in another way, we expected to see him live or at least be reunited with Kara Thrace - and this didn't happen. Instead we get a bittersweet ending with Sam flying the remainder of the fleet into our Sun to melt.


William Adama - Finally, the old man. His ending was a very sad one .............. destined to live out his days alone, without his son or his one true love. We can only guess as to whether he lives in peaceful solitude, enjoying his 'real' retirement ...................... or as to whether he longs to return to his longterm role as Admiral on the Galactica.

Awesome show, awesome finale.My only gripe is we didn't get to see Adama and Tigh doing the long goodbye, given their friendship.

Good thoughts.


Eh, actually I have a question here, at the moment it seems like a major plothole to me but I guess others can give an opinion to it. But how the hell were the Colonial administration asking Adama if he was a Cylon when they didn't even know skinjobs existed at the time? Certainly Adama didn't know as the miniseries shows us.

Is this just an error or are we to believe the colonial admin knew?

Sad Professor

noodler wrote: »

Eh, actually I have a question here, at the moment it seems like a major plothole to me but I guess others can give an opinion to it. But how the hell were the Colonial administration asking Adama if he was a Cylon when they didn't even know skinjobs existed at the time? Certainly Adama didn't know as the miniseries shows us.

Is this just an error or are we to believe the colonial admin knew?

I noticed this as well. I wouldn't read anything into. Just a little mistake. Or you could just see it as a silly question they asked to calibrate the machine.

noodler

Oh yeah, not reading anything into it, just wondering was it a mistake or a calibration exercise as you mentioned.

Volvagia

Syferus wrote: »

I've seen similar sentiments a few times, but for me, and I hope most people, since Natalie, the rebel cylon leader, was shot dead by Athena in a Opera House/Galactica intercut it has been clear that the Opera House was Galactica.

As the symbolic and physical heart of human-cylon union, and with a half human, half cylon child the central figure, I thought it common knowledge that the Opera House was Galactica from at least then on. It's not like they could do any more besides shout ''GALACTICA = OPERA HOUSE'' to further that point.

Good point, I was actually rewatching "Guess who's coming to dinner today" and I had completely forgotten about that scene.

I really liked the Opera House CIC bit in the finale, i thought it was done very well and the little bit of foreshadowing in guess whos coming makes it even nicer.

BlitzKrieg

Eh, actually I have a question here, at the moment it seems like a major plothole to me but I guess others can give an opinion to it. But how the hell were the Colonial administration asking Adama if he was a Cylon when they didn't even know skinjobs existed at the time? Certainly Adama didn't know as the miniseries shows us.

I dont think it was a question to see if he was skinjob, but a test to see if the machine is calibrated correctly, he is given a series of questions where the answer has to be *yes* or *no* are you a cylon at that point was an obvious no because he isnt big fracking toaster with a red beam visor harking out *By your command* I think the interviewer apoligised because Adama fought in the war.

degrassinoel

i've got a gut feeling the second and final question in that interview will be answered in 'Caprica'

"Have you ever stolen money from a cashbox?"

silvine

Good ending but the show had so many mysteries there was no way it could answer them all.

So let me get this straight:

Kara is an angel and Gaius and Six are angels too.

Gaius and Six's job was to take Hera and stop here being killed even though her mother was metres behind and could probably have done the same thing?!

Can someone explain why there's not other versions of Cavil running around plotting revenge? Were all the copies on him on that colony ship?

And all this talk of Starbuck being the harbinger of doom, it never happened.

Also know that it's all over:

Anyone else really hate Lee? I wanted him to die like the bitch he is.

Or think the chief was a complete nutter? He's off to live as a hermit like some kind of unabomber!

AnCapaillMor

Well in all fairness, alot had happened to chief, he possibly got the roughest ride in the entire series. his love turning out to be a cylon after he covered up for her, then he himself a cylon, kelly commiting suicide, his love returns and screws him over again, then he finds out his love in a previous life had killed kelly and it was'nt a suicide. If it was me i'd want to stay away from people too.

silvine

He got off lightly. Lots of people died because he was prepared to bonk a Boomer look-a-like on the head and let her be executed so the real Boomer could escape. Gaeta was shot for less.

Syferus

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Well in all fairness, alot had happened to chief, he possibly got the roughest ride in the entire series. his love turning out to be a cylon after he covered up for her, then he himself a cylon, kelly commiting suicide, his love returns and screws him over again, then he finds out his love in a previous life had killed kelly and it was'nt a suicide. If it was me i'd want to stay away from people too.

I'm just giving you a heads up - it's Cally, not Kelly.

Syferus

silvine wrote: »

He got off lightly. Lots of people died because he was prepared to bonk a Boomer look-a-like on the head and let her be executed so the real Boomer could escape. Gaeta was shot for less.

I don't think you can say letting one person you love escape is anywhere near as sinister or destructive as a planned muntiny. It's not like Tyrol planned it so it would turn out like it did.

The volunteer process for the misson to The Colony let prisoners be involved for what would amount to fighting for their freedom. To that, Tyrol was also one of the Final Five so it was important to have him around, even just to install Sam in the CIC.

Kiith

Well, thats it. The end of what is, imo, the best tv program for the last decade. Absolutly loved every minute of it. So much happened, and it answered most of the questions that i wanted answered. I actually like that they didnt spell everything out, and left quite a few things to be explained by the fans.

Probably the only main gripe i had with it is that there wasnt anything with Leoban (Kara's Leoban that is). Considering how long that saga went on, and how close they seemed, its a shame not to see a proper conclusion.

Pepe LeFrits

The Opera House reveal was a bit stupid.

Helo and Athena were originally meant to die - which would have made sense. However they decided to keep them around and ruined that whole thread.

The lack of Leoben annoyed me too. Seems they ran out of ideas for him.

cyrusdvirus

Am i the only one who reckons Racetrack wasn't dead? The hull was breached on the EWO's side, he was dead, so too the 2 marines, but she's in a pressure suit, we saw Apollo survive in a suit for a while when the resurection ship was knocked out.

HOWEVER, her ships hull was breached, so she couldn't jump out, so basically as soon as she fired off her weps, it was a case of choose how you die.

She would have been briefed on the plan for Anders to get the colony's gun platforms to stop firing, and as soon as they did open up again she fired off her nukes.

kevmy

silvine wrote: »

Good ending but the show had so many mysteries there was no way it could answer them all.

So let me get this straight:

Kara is an angel and Gaius and Six are angels too.

Gaius and Six's job was to take Hera and stop here being killed even though her mother was metres behind and could probably have done the same thing?!

Well it was Baltars job to bring Hera into the CIC but also by going through the series long religious conversion he helped convince Cavill to stop the fighting. I don't think Athena or Roslin would have done this.

silvine wrote: »

Can someone explain why there's not other versions of Cavil running around plotting revenge? Were all the copies on him on that colony ship?

All remaining Cylons seem to have been on the Colony. The colony apparently falls into the black hole as the nukes sent it out of orbit according to Ron Moore but the editing didn't make this clear. So no more bad Cylons

silvine wrote: »

And all this talk of Starbuck being the harbinger of doom, it never happened.

She was a harbinger of doom for the bad cylons. She also brought the human race to it's end as prophecised. Most people got the two mixed up and thought Kara was the harbinger of doom for the human race.

Manic Moran

kevmy wrote: »

All remaining Cylons seem to have been on the Colony. The colony apparently falls into the black hole as the nukes sent it out of orbit according to Ron Moore but the editing didn't make this clear. So no more bad Cylons

If the Raptor recon mission had been watching base ships jump in and out, one must assume that there are other base ships out there. They don't seem to have been at the colony when Galactica showed up.

But, Tyrol said there were no people where he was going. It was clearly supposed to indicate he'd live out his days as a hermit, not that he founded any 'tribe'.

You've got to admit, the similarity between the name and location is a bit of a coincidence.

NTM

Syferus

kevmy wrote: »

She was a harbinger of doom for the bad cylons. She also brought the human race to it's end as prophecised. Most people got the two mixed up and thought Kara was the harbinger of doom for the human race.

Well, if we're going to be honest - and I loved the finale - Starbuck wasn't even involved in the squence that lead to the destruction of The Colony, which of course was caused by inexpictably 'lucky' body movement by Racetrack.

It seems the writers had real trouble trying to comletely square away the prophecies they first put forth in Razor. You can say her return hearlded their demise, or that the hybrid was deliberately mis-leading, but neither seem fully satisifying for something so important to the plot.

Even though it'd be quite pointless to detail it in the the finale, I wonder what happened to Starbuck's 'angelic' viper?

kevmy

Syferus wrote: »

Well, if we're going to be honest - and I loved the finale - Starbuck wasn't even involved in the squence that lead to the destruction of The Colony, which of course was caused by inexpictably 'lucky' body movement by Racetrack.

It seems the writers had real trouble trying to comletely square away the prophecies they first put forth in Razor. You can say her return hearlded their demise, or that the hybrid was deliberately mis-leading, but neither seem fully satisifying for somthing so important to the plot.

Even though it'd be quite pointless to detail it in the the finale, I wonder what happened to Starbuck's 'angelic' viper?

All true enough. I've already stated that I didn't like how they ended Starbuck's story and how I thought they wrote themselves into a corner. Was just pointing out that the prophecies didn't say she was the harbinger of doom for the human race just that she would bring it to it's end.

telemachus

Didn't the renegade first hybrid they ran into prophesise that the colonials should not follow Kara, so I suppose he must be fibbing which is odd since everything else he says about the 7 cylons splintering, the four realising who they are and the eventual unity of the two sides is accurate.

Found it now : "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. "

Tenger

telemachus wrote: »

Didn't the renegade first hybrid they ran into prophesise that the colonials should not follow Kara,

Found it now : "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. "

Deliberately misleading the humans so they wouldn't follow her and /get to our Earth/kill off the cylons perhaps? And it says she will lead the HUMAN race to its END. The end of their jouney for redemption? or something philosophical like that......................

telemachus

I would have thought so if it was one of the main cylon hybrids that said it, but this hybrid led a group that the main lot apparently wanted wiped out and doesn't have any real motive for attempting deception as he also seems to have forseen and accepted the death that's just about to befall him.

LoLth

I wonder if the quote means:

lead the human race to its end: lead them to earth

harbringer of Death , herald of the apocalypse: her ship appeared back in time on ruined earth and somehow sparked the nuclear war...

though this introduces time travel which just complicates things, unelss the hybrid knew Starbuck from previous cycles and warned them not to follow her in an attempt to break the current cycle ?

ah, i've just confused myself now

Pepe LeFrits

gatecrash wrote: »

Am i the only one who reckons Racetrack wasn't dead? The hull was breached on the EWO's side, he was dead, so too the 2 marines, but she's in a pressure suit, we saw Apollo survive in a suit for a while when the resurection ship was knocked out.

HOWEVER, her ships hull was breached, so she couldn't jump out, so basically as soon as she fired off her weps, it was a case of choose how you die.

She would have been briefed on the plan for Anders to get the colony's gun platforms to stop firing, and as soon as they did open up again she fired off her nukes.

I thought so too at first, but there was a hole in her helmet's visor.

cyrusdvirus

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I thought so too at first, but there was a hole in her helmet's visor.

Was there? i didn't notice that. Have only seen it the once though

ktc1

[QUOTE=

Found it now : "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. "[/QUOTE]

"Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end." To the end of their journey, Earth II.

"She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death." For Cavil's Cylons.

"They must not follow her." Because it will lead to the end of the Cavil's Cylons. The hybrid has no interest in preserving human life, It doesn't want them to follow Kara to preserve Cylon life.

telemachus

But it's part of a group that Cavill and co want wiped out.... this is the original hybrid, who leads the older autonomous centurions and who would have no reason to save a cylon group who are their enemies and want them exterminated.

ArNosNaGaoithe

A few thoughts which I don't think have been mentioned (apologies if they have)

Yes Ron Moore didn't have it all planned out form the start but I still think we got a very coherent resolution that fits neatly with the whole show. If he hadn't said anything, I don't think there would be many saying he hadn't known how it would pan out

Hera: I think now we can look back at the whole show as being about "its" plan to bring Hera to our earth so she could become mitochondrial eve. The prophesies all ultimately ended up being about events that led to this. Note all Hera had to do was have one female child before dying to continue her mitochondrial line.

Humans: The humans on earth 150,000 years ago were all Homo sapiens subspecies. In africa it was Homo sapiens idaltu, who are believed to be the ancesters of Homo sapiens sapiens (us) so it ties in perfectly with Hera being the missing ingredient that allowed the idaltu to become fully sapient.
The colonials and cylons clearly didn't contribute significantly to the new species as they could only have done so by breeding with Hera's descendants, otherwise their mitochondria would still be around.

"It": For me it was the season 2 episode where we saw that Caprica 6 could see a virtual Baltar that was the key turning point. After this we knew there had to be an outside factor at work and that Virtual 6 had nothing to do with the cylons. So from then on I assumed the god being referred to was real, whether an advanced alien or a real god.

Kara: Kara was "primed" for her destiny- after all her father taught her the song, and she painted the maelstrom, so its not something that was only introduced late on. I don't think we were ever told exactly what surgical procedure was carried out on her by the cylons. And I agree she did die in the maelstrom. Also her last words to Lee indicate she understood what had happened now. In the podcast, Moore says any explanation they tried out was too star-trekky, so I think it was better not to explain it.
I'd compare the ending to 2001, actually explaining what it was instead of just showing its actions would have probably ruined the story.

Two final thoughts-
Tory was Tyrol's Fiancée before Cavil erased their memories, perhaps this is why she took pleasure in killing Cally at a subconscious level. And of course it means poor Tyrol actually strangled the true love of his life.

And finally- there was actually a major error in the finale- 150,000 years ago it was the middle of the Ice Age! So the shorelines shown were all wrong (plus the Sahara was fertile grassland then, not desert as shown) and theres no way Tyrol could have gone to Scotland given that it was buried under 3 miles of icecap. But then, perhaps the characters mostly settled by the shore as estuaries are particularly fertile, so all trace of them was wiped out as the sea rose at the end of the ice age. But we can forgive them one mistake...

Syferus

ArNosNaGaoithe wrote: »

Tory was Tyrol's Fiancée before Cavil erased their memories, perhaps this is why she took pleasure in killing Cally at a subconscious level. And of course it means poor Tyrol actually strangled the true love of his life.

I don't think it's apt to label Tory Tyrol's 'true love'. All of the final five chose differen paths when they foudn out what, and who, they were. Tyrol and Tory both knew of their shared past for a while beforehand, and Tyrol had no intention on a relationship, nor did Tory have any intention of tellin Tyrol about Cally.

Rand_alThor

Chiming in very late here but what they hey,

Have to say I really liked the last ep, 4/5, but mainly just for the pure action (although it would've been nice to have a more substantial, capable actor then Hotdog in a viper so we could connect with that more) and saying goodbye to the characters. I thought the actors did a pretty fantastic job. Couple of things felt like they were wrapped up far too quickly though.

-Baltar becoming a man and gaining Caprica's respect, and regaining her love.
-The Opera house 'mystery' was a contrived joke. An idea that underscored at least, the entire season two reduced to the simple need of Baltar and Caprica to walk into the CIC. I know, it got Tory killed eventually but Racetrack (RIP) would've still fired the nukes, very nearly the same result.

I'm not happy with the overall reasoning (or lack of) behind the plot conclusion. For our heroes (sorry) it end with the nearly certain belief that something has been guiding them all to this for predestined, concrete reasons. Then in the epilogue we discover that, oops, it just looks like it's all going to happen again. Oh noes, it looks like God (who doesn't like to be called that) got it wrong.

I also don't get Baltar's line right there, 'You know he doesn't like to be called that,.... oops silly me!' What is that because he says 'he'?

The reasoning behind abandoning all tech is a pretty big stretch but is a nice idea.

And Kara. So what was she meant to be? She died when she entered the malestrom. So what, she was an Angel? She effectively had no free choice/will? Her entire life was irreversably on a line to that moment? Then what, when she returned she was just a vision like head-Six/Baltar except everyone could see her? I can understand not wanting to give a Star Trek explaination but none at all is a cop out. You can dress it up whatever way you want to answer the mystical, psuedo-religious prophecy with more of the same is cheap. And unfortunately thats my what I'd have to say to Ron Moore.

The actors however, as stated were class. There were a few teary moments for me, Lee saying goodbye to his Da, and Adama and Roslyn's played the death scene very well. But then I guess I could have parental issues.

You have to feel for Lee though. Every single one of his good friends are gone. Granted, he didn't have many on Galactica but I mean, seriously, Kara (just poof, probably hardest of all) his Da and Roslyn who fought for his soul, and his wife, however understated a marriage it was. Now he's completely alone and not likely to make many new friends. Sucks.

Actually, his Da's in pretty much the same situation I guess, except that he choose it and he's getting on so he'll fit into the old hermit role.

Tyrol was a sad one too but all his troubles came before, ha, since season 1 really. He's not had a good time at all.

The rest got as good as they could expect I guess.

I thought it was a good end to a show that for a long time has been strife with rubbish mid-season episodes and been carried by the actors. Apart from a few (well plenty actually) season 2 moments, season 1 is how I'll choose to remember the show.

Syferus

Rand_alThor wrote: »

Chiming in very late here but what they hey,

Have to say I really liked the last ep, 4/5, but mainly just for the pure action (although it would've been nice to have a more substantial, capable actor then Hotdog in a viper so we could connect with that more) and saying goodbye to the characters. I thought the actors did a pretty fantastic job. Couple of things felt like they were wrapped up far too quickly though.

-Baltar becoming a man and gaining Caprica's respect, and regaining her love.
-The Opera house 'mystery' was a contrived joke. An idea that underscored at least, the entire season two reduced to the simple need of Baltar and Caprica to walk into the CIC. I know, it got Tory killed eventually but Racetrack (RIP) would've still fired the nukes, very nearly the same result.

I'm not happy with the overall reasoning (or lack of) behind the plot conclusion. For our heroes (sorry) it end with the nearly certain belief that something has been guiding them all to this for predestined, concrete reasons. Then in the epilogue we discover that, oops, it just looks like it's all going to happen again. Oh noes, it looks like God (who doesn't like to be called that) got it wrong.

I also don't get Baltar's line right there, 'You know he doesn't like to be called that,.... oops silly me!' What is that because he says 'he'?

The reasoning behind abandoning all tech is a pretty big stretch but is a nice idea.

And Kara. So what was she meant to be? She died when she entered the malestrom. So what, she was an Angel? She effectively had no free choice/will? Her entire life was irreversably on a line to that moment? Then what, when she returned she was just a vision like head-Six/Baltar except everyone could see her? I can understand not wanting to give a Star Trek explaination but none at all is a cop out. You can dress it up whatever way you want to answer the mystical, psuedo-religious prophecy with more of the same is cheap. And unfortunately thats my what I'd have to say to Ron Moore.

The actors however, as stated were class. There were a few teary moments for me, Lee saying goodbye to his Da, and Adama and Roslyn's played the death scene very well. But then I guess I could have parental issues.

You have to feel for Lee though. Every single one of his good friends are gone. Granted, he didn't have many on Galactica but I mean, seriously, Kara (just poof, probably hardest of all) his Da and Roslyn who fought for his soul, and his wife, however understated a marriage it was. Now he's completely alone and not likely to make many new friends. Sucks.

Actually, his Da's in pretty much the same situation I guess, except that he choose it and he's getting on so he'll fit into the old hermit role.

Tyrol was a sad one too but all his troubles came before, ha, since season 1 really. He's not had a good time at all.

The rest got as good as they could expect I guess.

I thought it was a good end to a show that for a long time has been strife with rubbish mid-season episodes and been carried by the actors. Apart from a few (well plenty actually) season 2 moments, season 1 is how I'll choose to remember the show.

While this may come across as glib, it is not intended in that way.

It's Roslin, not Roslyn.

popebenny16

chipping in even later. first im glad that my post last year about the relevance of the opening monologue of the original series "there are some who say that life here began out there" was borne out. more to the point though is that the original source of the original series inspiration - chariot of the gods - details lost civilisations that had batteries ect. that should fit in wiht the fact that the colonials did not leave everything on their ships - in fact they proabably stripped them for as much as they could get - and some maybe tried civilisations that eventually led to mya ect or even ones lost long ago (atlantis for the heck of it, tir na nog for another).

the hprase of God not being liked being called that - well, 150,000 years is a long time, maybe it's having a mid-supralife crisis and wants to be called chip or something.

as for the final story - there are more then just missing basestars - what about the cylons left on te 12 conolies? what happens to them?

as for hera being eve, that is perfectly acceptable, given that modern humans today can actually be traced backto a band of about 6000 people who managed to get through the last mass ice age. we are only talking about traces of her dna after all, to get to 6000 is not a huge number. becides, we could dig up adam somewhere in the future.

over all, i liked it. it was exciting, i liked the ending, i thought it also helped gumming some long estabished concepts together (zodiac being derived form the names of the colonies - the accents of the differnet colonies being spread around the world) and did something that a lot fo other shows should have done (helllllooooooo B5) and stopped at the end.

I gave it 4. all those cylons still out there and the terminator "dont you get it" ending robbed it for me in the end.

Calibos

Heres the thing though. The Zodiac and the Greco Roman colonial mytholgies survived 150,000 years but fire, the wheel and agriculture didn't?

popebenny16

the cultural things as a folk memory and distorted to what we call them today, fire made it i'd imagine**** and as for wheels and agriculture, again after the big freeze the race memory was intact.


**** depends if the colonials/golafrinchams had decided what colour fire should actually be, of course.

Calibos

Mod of Legal Issues........probably has career in Law.......requirement for which is a logical mind I would have thought.......thinks its logical that colonials managed to pass accents and mytholgies through 50,000 generations of decendants but didn't manage to pass the 'myths' of Fire, the wheel or argriculture which we know only appeared in the fossil record, 50,000, 7,000 and 6,000 years ago respectively.????

Admit it. The ending doesn't tie the colonial mythologies or accents to us in a rational logical way at all. If you do think its perfectly logical then remind me never to hire you as council !!!

(I tease of course, you are just more capable of suspension of disbelief than me and less of a galactica nerd...Its a TV show FFS Calibos! )

ArNosNaGaoithe

I disagree- 150,000 years later the asterisms would be very different. The zodiacal constellations today are nothing like those which existed then (although those visible from the 13th tribes earth were like our modern ones 150,000 yrs ago).

Also, the colonials and cylons contributed nothing culturally directly, just possibly some DNA, though it may be that only Hera and the idaltu actually contributed DNA to present day humans. We can explain the lack of evidence for them if we assume they settled on land that was flooded after the ice-age, destroying all trace of habitations or field markings.

The colonials obviously didn't really speak english, the gods names may just have been the english equivalent. And the real "god" was referred to as It not He. I chose to see It as a highly advanced alien species like whoever built the monolith in 2001.

And for Kara- there were never any prophesies about her nature being revealed, or that of It, or the "angels", all the actual prophesies were fulfilled, which was enough for me.

popebenny16

well, of course, the nearer to our time the easier it is to fit this theory into something or other and like him or loath him RDM painted himself into a corner in the end and i think he made as good an ending as any.

i am also aware that the civilisations in chariot of the gods are only a couple of thousand years old as well and i would imagine that "Creative Consultant/Producer" Glen A Larson should have pointed this out to him.

but anyway, in an effort to reply to your points..... the names have surived, in some form as terms only. not only do they not refer to the colonies location in the night sky - they cant. aren't the 12 colonies in one star system??? that was the impresion i got over the last year or so - not 12 systems, and indeed not the dozens of star sytems we need to complete all of our zodiac.

as for fire, agriculture.... it can be forgotten, or indeed, stored as a memory to be used again - Brian Aldiss' Helliconia books used this theory.

as for accents and stuff....

...ok.... i do admit the basic fact that we actually evolved (maybe, all right there God?) on earth may be slightly punching a hole in my otherwise correct arguments....

ArNosNaGaoithe

popebenny16 wrote: »

as for fire, agriculture.... it can be forgotten, or indeed, stored as a memory to be used again - Brian Aldiss' Helliconia books used this theory.

someone else who read Helliconia! It's really great, isn't it?

popebenny16

'tis indeed.

TouchingVirus

I just watched all the 2009 eps back to back, I was saving it all up for a marathon day and just had it. My Gods ...it was fantastic.

I'm incredibly sad now that it's over, seeing Galactica's "back break" was harrowing, as was seeing her get absolutely hammered when it jumped over the colony. It was such an investment to watch BSG for me, I'm definitely not usually a space sci-fi show watcher, Star Trek, Stargate etc are all lost on me, but this show was special. Frak that, it was sublime.

The Chief getting retribution, Rosalin dieing on her final flight, The Opera Theatre, Angels and Divinity were all epic moment but what truly got my jaw hitting the floor were the Starbuck bits - when she played that tune and turned to see what we'd just realised was her father was gone, a ghost. When she put her own picture on the wall I misted up a bit. When Lee turned to see she was gone but most of all.. when Adama and her said their goodbyes

---

Starbuck, what do you hear?

Nothing but the rain.

Then grab your gun and bring in the cat.

---

Those three lines, just :(:(

Branoic

Does Adama's and Starbuck's parting have any meaning / relevance outside the BSG universe? I know they have the same exchange at the start of the miniseries, but it seems like quite an odd thing to say and I'm just curious if is from anything else IRL?

Vokes

Not sure about any real world relevance but the phrase is first uttered back in the Razor flashbacks between Adama and the Viper chick he was sleeping with. So maybe its a Colonial military thing ?

robby^5

Rewatching season 4 now has started to make the spiritual resolution in the finale seem a little less sudden and is starting to make more and more sense.

Looking at the episode Escape Velocity and there's a scene where Batlar is trying to pass a marine to lead his people back into their home and after being knocked down repeatedly, Head Six literally picks him up (there is a cut to Baltar, completely limp being lifted by some invisible force) which for me cannot be explained any other way other than that Head Six is an actual Angel.

D

Branoic wrote: »

Does Adama's and Starbuck's parting have any meaning / relevance outside the BSG universe? I know they have the same exchange at the start of the miniseries, but it seems like quite an odd thing to say and I'm just curious if is from anything else IRL?

"that thing that adama and starbuck say:
"morning starbuck, whatdya hear?"
"nothin' but the rain."
"Grab your gun and bring the cat in."
my friend and I have made up our own little meaning/interpretation for it, and use it on a pretty regular basis (parts of it). but what does it mean to those characters? and how did the writers come up with it?"

I came up with this in the miniseries, and it's essentially a riff on contemporary marching chants or cadences used in the military called, "jodies." You've seen them in films: the platoon is marching or jogging along and the drill instructor sings out something like, "Up in the morning in the rising sun/Gonna run all day 'til the running's done," and the platoon either repeats the lines or adds the next line in the jodie. They range from the funny to the deeply profane and I remembered several of them from my NROTC days while I was writing the mini. In that opening scene, Kara is jogging through the corridors of Galactica and Adama greets her with a line that is a reference to an old jodie that presumably each of them remembers from their own training. So it's kind of an in-joke reference that they share with each other which probably in turn has some even deeper private joke between the two of them. I never wrote out the entire jodie, but I liked the nonsensical nature of the lines and thought it was more effective to suggest the cadences without spelling them out.

http://blogs.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/07/

Vegeta

Watched the final episode(s) last night and I thought they were a bit disappointing

Just meh to be honest.

Loved the all the series but thought there was a lot of nonsensical things in the last episode

Branoic

Really? I just watched the final episodes again last Sunday and absolutely loved them, again.

Just spent the last two months watching the entire 4 seasons back to back. Started off trying to get my missus into watching "that silly sci-fi", and half way through season one she was hooked and demanded that we watch 2 - 3 episodes a night!

Everything was just as brilliant second time round as I remember, and now that's all over after our two month marathon, our lives feel empty again Come on The Plan!!