BSG 2003 S4E20/21 'Daybreak Part 2/Part 3' ***Spoilers***

User45701

homerun_homer wrote: »

Baltar's visions of Six, and at one point another version of himself need to be explained. That's too big of a thing to just leave it open to viewer interpretation. It was such a huge part of the story in S1&2.
Another example of how they inroduce something really interesting you believe over time will be answered but in truth won't be, was when a version of 6 appeared on Galactica and Gaius thought it was one of his visions when she was in fact real to everyone. She disappeared around a corner and nothing else was ever said.

So exectly what kara did at the very end?

I guess that explains it because both of them where corporial and could be phyically interacted with

telemachus

In the podcast he also talks about how there was alot of debate over what they were going to do with the Kara character and wether a concrete explanation was going to be proffered, and he pushed through the mysterious dissapearance as being connected to divinity and the idea that it can't be divinity if they can grasp it logicly.

I'm not sure I totally buy that, it might have worked if there was a bit more grey in it, if the prescence of the character better fitted the whole "divine coincidence" theme, as it stands it's pretty damn black and white, "god" took a direct meddling hand in events, sent her back (along with original Earth co-ordinates in her new ship) and then removed her when she'd done what she needed to. The two divine avatars at the end chatting away further reinforces it, it just jars for me, on the one hand this god of a thousand chance events you can never pin down, and on the other this blatant manipulator with non corporeal beings scurrying about in peoples heads keeping everything on schedule.

tvnutz

telemachus wrote: »

In the podcast he also talks about how there was alot of debate over what they were going to do with the Kara character and wether a concrete explanation was going to be proffered, and he pushed through the mysterious dissapearance as being connected to divinity and the idea that it can't be divinity if they can grasp it logicly.

is this a podcast on the series finale? where might I get hold of this?

telemachus

You can get it here : http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast.php , the final one seems to be for the second last and the final double episode, apparently Moore wanted them shown all on the same night.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in it, he's quite candid about the fact that he wrote a lot of situations with no solutions or ark in sight because he felt that they were right for the characters involved, and is of the belief that a decent writing staff should be able to fashion the plot to fit at a later stage.

One of his comparisons is to a novel writer who rarely knows what the latter sections of the book will be while writing the early chapters, which doesn't seem completely accurate, because the novel writer can start anew, or rewrite his early sections, where with television scripts being written as previously written episodes air what went before is often carved in stone.

homerun_homer

There's a lot of interesting stuff in it, he's quite candid about the fact that he wrote a lot of situations with no solutions or ark in sight because he felt that they were right for the characters involved,

Big mistake by him. He shouldn't be introducing all these mystery strands without having even a hint of a clue how he thinks it should pan out, or have valid answers for them. Very disappointing and lazy.

One of his comparisons is to a novel writer who rarely knows what the latter sections of the book will be while writing the early chapters, which doesn't seem completely accurate, because the novel writer can start anew, or rewrite his early sections, where with television scripts being written as previously written episodes air what went before is often carved in stone.

Too true. The hole was dug from the get go, though the first 2 seasons were the show at it's best.

Volvagia

Stark wrote: »

For goodness sake. I could easily reply to "if you don't like it, don't watch it" with "if you don't like it, don't read it". People enjoy shows in different ways. A show's biggest fans can be its most vocal critics. Be glad that the show does promote strong discussion and we actually have a forum of threads to read.

I'd agree with you here; just because you you criticise something doesn't mean you don't like it. Sometimes you like something so much that you expect it to be perfect every time.

It also reminds of a bit of the article from Jive Magazine entitled Star Wars Fans, Hate Star Wars.

http://www.jivemagazine.com/column.php?pid=3381

But that might be a little extreme in this case.

Pepe LeFrits

Goodshape wrote: »

Heh. Can't help but agree with what Sad Professor and others are saying above.

"Stuff happens because they want it to happen and then all of sudden it's the end and they don't how to resolve everything."

Things definitely felt like that - although I think it's been apparently obvious since the 3rd season. It certainly didn't come as a shock to me in the final that they couldn't / didn't wrap up all those crazy plot-lines. Season 3 in particular will always stand out to me as being overly long and introducing far too much crazy bull**** just to make up the episode numbers.

But the journey I enjoyed and I do feel satisfied by the final. Fantastic spectacle and a fitting conclusion to most things - I'd find it hard to fault this episode for mistakes made in previous ones but, having calmed down and read other peoples more level-headed thoughts on it all, it is a shame they had to resort to the "god did it all" get-out. Though I honestly don't think it'll tarnish my future appreciation of what an excellent show this was.

This sums up my feelings too.

I found the plot of the finale quite weak, but I'm not surprised by this as it has been apparent that the writers were making it up as they went along and stuff was never going to be explained, because they didn't have the answers themselves.

However, the character aspects of the finale were excellent. The resolution of each character's story was very satisfying. BSG (mini-series) aside has always been a character-driven show. It was about the journey, and the impact of the journey on the characters.

Derek Coleman

Regarding myself............ I got out of the wrong side of the bed the other day and got pissed off reading the bad things. We don't have long left in this forum so I wanted to leave on a good note and have fond memories of BSG in my mind.

So ''''''I'm SORRY'''''' I got a bit agro, on a forum... ha.... but I understand its a discussion and I can't convert you all to my "BSG CULT" where Ron Moore is my all knowing God.

I'll continue to just read the thread from this point on to prevent myself from throwing my toys out of the pram! I swear. :rolleyes:

But if this thread ends on a bad note I swear I will post the last word and I'll make it end on a GOOD ONE.

DirkVoodoo

I really liked it, the main character stories were wrapped up nicely, but I had this slight nagging sensation in the back of my head. Completely unable to articulate my feelings, i went googling and came across this. While I don't agree entirely with his view, it does seem to ring true.

http://cinemablend.com/television/Why-The-Battlestar-Galactica-Finale-Is-A-Huge-Copout-And-It-Doesn-t-Matter-16337.html

I thought I would post it in case anyone was at the same point of incompleteness as me. In the end he is right, it doesn't matter, it was great. BSG was great and in a world of TV as unoriginal and frequently repetitive as the cylon model line, it has been a real joy to watch.

Manach

My 2 pence.
Having just watch it on Sky, I found it a decent enough ending to a great series. It is the nature of all Sci-Fi shows to be at the mercy of outside ratings influence (think Firefly) and endings that might not be all that could be. The negatives were flashbacks for the most part seemed filler, Kara Thrace disappearing in I assume a fiery chariot and the fleet just going from hi-tech space age to pastoral. Overall though I enjoyed it, especially how the Opera sequence was re-spun. Deux ex machina happens.

Stark

I thought the Baltar/Six flashbacks were excellent and really helped bring closure to the characters. The Roslin flashbacks were a complete waste of time though.

telemachus

I liked most of the flashbacks too, the Baltar/Six were certainly the best, elevating the seduction and betrayal that led to the near destruction of humanity to something with more depth than the previously assumed tawdry foolish fling by an egocentric manchild. I quite like the Kara/Lee scenes to, as it reinforced the whole doomed romance angle where they never quite make it, and added extra pathos to their final scene together when it appears they might finally have time together.

I wasn't a huge fan of the presidents flashbacks, it didn't really seem to develop substantially from the loss of her family, and the one night stand that led her to signing up with Adar and subsequently leading humanity lacked that satisfying "click" moment most of Moores character backstory sections carry with them, when you comprehend the motivations behind the character and how they illuminate their future actions.

The Bull

wouldnt it be great to see these guys transfered to the big screen for a big screen movie, takin from where the tv show ended, takin on the frackin natives and the dinosaures without there technoligy

Stark

telemachus wrote:

I quite like the Kara/Lee scenes to, as it reinforced the whole doomed romance angle where they never quite make it, and added extra pathos to their final scene together when it appears they might finally have time together.

Yeah I was thinking that at the end "you know, they have all this time now and Dee and Anders are out of the equation" then poof, she's gone.

telemachus

I do feel a bit sorry for Lee , Dee blew her brains out, Kara's presumably off snuggling with Anders on "the other side", his father is going to live out what's left of his life in isolation and Baltar/Six and Helo/Athena are now lovey-dovey couples who will no doubt only entertain other couples at their dinner parties. At least the chief chose solitude on a miserable Scottish rock, Lee seems to have a few decades of mountaineering to look forward to.

Slutmonkey57b

In relation to the "athiests don't like the religion plot", I don't find that a substantial argument. I think that the early episodes clearly show religious subtexts in the arena where they were most effective and comfortable - as subtexts. As Ron Moore got his hand over the show's direction, he introduced religion as "garbled mumbo jumbo" which not only derailed the focus of the show from the situations, characters, and exploration of society, but failed to work itself into anything useful in terms of story direction. Moore did much the same with DS9, where the annoying bajorans and stupid prophets took over the show and flushed it down the toilet.

Compare with religion, predestination, the influence of an agnostic god as an overarching theme in the Northern Lights trilogy and you'll see how this sort of thing can be done well. Moore just isn't the man for the job, he refuses to focus, which is where the finale fell down. Even if the ending they chose had to be done, it could have been done much much better. I don't buy the argument that they painted themselves into a hole in season 3 onward with this, or with the final 5. Choosing God as an explanation doesn't necessarily follow that your closure has to be sloppy, or ill thought out, or cheesy.

telemachus

I think it's the brazen lack of subtlety given to the divine explanation that bother me a bit. I really liked the idea of this god of coincidences working in the background, that could never definitively be proven to be responsible for events.

The head six especially in earlier seasons was a perfect example, you were never entirely sure what she was, a creation of Baltar himself, a manipulation by the cylons, or genuinely an avatar of god. There was a delightful subtlety to it, you could argue that even if it was Baltars brain misfiring due to head trauma , that this itself could be an indirect manifestation of god, a mirror to modern religious argument . Instead we got black and white old testament god, resurrecting Lazarus, with immortal angels strolling through Times Square 150 thousand years in the future, there wasn't alot of room for interpretation.

As much as I like closure at the end of a series, I would have preferred a more ambigous, mysterious background god, to the point where viewers would be split down the middle as to wether it even existed.

noodler

I can't believe in hidsight that they had the audacity to have Head Six talk about God this and god this for so long. I mean she even A) Threatened to have Baltar and the fleet destroyed if he didn't start believing in it and then she Went through the bother of making sure Baltar made a cult which rejected the notion of multiple gods in favour of the "one true god". This is all funny considering the divine entity doesn't "Like" being called god.

I agree with the above poster about 6 in the earlier season though. You could never tell if she was good or evil. I mean she saved the fleet, then she got them caught on New Caprica (told Baltar to give Gina the Nuke) and seemed fairly, whats the word?, smug when the Cylons landed on New Caprica-"Judgement Day" I believe.

DirkVoodoo

What I want to know now is why Angel Baltar said to Angel Six at the end "you know he doesn't like to be called that" when she refererd to "God". It may be a small throw-away line, but it just seemed an odd one to include in the last few lines of the show if it did have some meaning.

DirkVoodoo

noodler wrote: »

You could never tell if she was good or evil. I mean she saved the fleet, then she got them caught on New Caprica (told Baltar to give Gina the Nuke) and seemed fairly, whats the word?, smug when the Cylons landed on New Caprica-"Judgement Day" I believe.

Like she says I guess, God "has no sides".

I do find it odd that her ultimate aim to preserve and advance Baltar from scientist to Vice President, then president on Caprica, then religious leader of an all-female cult (where can I apply for the vacancy!?!) was simply to walk Hera a few steps into the CIC.

And yes, I am puzzled by some of the flashbacks, did they suddenly panic and think "we need to pad out their backstories, quick!". Personally I think we could have done without it, the sight of Adama spewing chunks in the street is not an image I want to keep.

noodler

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What I want to know now is why Angel Baltar said to Angel Six at the end "you know he doesn't like to be called that" when she refererd to "God". It may be a small throw-away line, but it just seemed an odd one to include in the last few lines of the show if it did have some meaning.

Has that question not been asked about 25 times in this thread alone?

tvnutz

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Personally I think we could have done without it, the sight of Adama spewing chunks in the street is not an image I want to keep.

Persoanlly I think they should have ended the show with that scene,what an ending it would have been!

Syferus

Derek Coleman wrote: »

No she tells him she loves him. Which was nice cause she gave him a lotta **** when he wasn't a goldfish/cylon and was a human/cylon. I just think that this show has had so much doom and gloom that they deserved a good ending and we didn't need any big twists or surprises just for the sake of it.

I am a stubborn Atheist. I would go as far as to say that I hate religion, but the religious theme of this show is brilliant to me. I don't have to believe in a god..... I just have to believe that they do!!

And seriously man I was grinning like an idiot when you could see Africa from space.

I did wonder why we had to see Roslins flashback or anyones flashback because only Anders one made sense because he couldn't say anything while he was having a bath so I think his was PERFECTLY done.
But I'm very forgiving when it comes to tv shows that peek my interest. I'll let a lot slide under the radar because I know that picking holes in it only hinders my enjoyment so I'm only hurting myself!!

Adama's shows him choosing to stay on 'active' assignment aboard Galactica, a fateful decision if there ever was one.

Roslin ends up deciding to join the mayor's campaign, which obviously leads her eventally into her positon as education minister of the Twelve Colonies, and her ending up as president.

Lee and Kara's first meeting is paralleled with their last, and Lee's bird flying free symbolises his eventual freedom on Earth.

Ellen and Tigh finally 'retire', just as Ellen thought was going to happen in their flashback.

Baltar starts to embrace his roots on Earth, echoing the change from his demeanour towards his father in the flashback.
And of course Baltar's fateful decision to trust Six leads to the Fall of the Twelve Colonies.

The flashbacks were fantastic and subtle in their fullness, and I think the way most of us saw them, split over two weeks, somewhat coloured our opinions of them as they seemed detached when just viewing the first hour of Daybreak.

The very end could have done without Moore's jarring Hitchcock moment though, as he's so instantly recognisable to most fans of the show that the scene collapses in around him while he's on screen. If he really had to slot himself into it, he should have done it as one of the people Six and Baltar walk by, not someone who takes up half the frame for about 5 seconds.

To that, the angel Six/Baltar speeches where a tad contrived in that we didn't need to be told again after all that happened that we need to break cycles, and heavy handed way of saying ''oooh look how close we are to screwing ourselves over!''.

The robot montage and the general point was embarassingly satisfying for me, though.

BlitzKrieg

I mean she saved the fleet, then she got them caught on New Caprica (told Baltar to give Gina the Nuke) and seemed fairly, whats the word?, smug when the Cylons landed on New Caprica-"Judgement Day" I believe.

they would have stayed on new caprica if she hadnt led the cylons to them though. And the great plan would never have come to fruitition.

At least the chief chose solitude on a miserable Scottish rock

I actually thought he was going to greenland for some reason? Also on the chief, am I the only one who thought he needed to be a victim to an accident or self sacrifice or something, I mean he made so many f*ck ups in season 4 that I was convinced he was gonna do the noble sacrifice routine at some point.

Went through the bother of making sure Baltar made a cult which rejected the notion of multiple gods in favour of the "one true god".

That is a curious element, it is clearly the precursor to the Jewish faith and later on christianity, especially when you combine it with Starbucks Resurrection trick.

Exneigh

I'm mourning the loss of this great Show

I hope Caprica is good, most the write up's I've read so far say it has all the elements that made BSG so good.. except pew pew space fights..

unedited Pilot available on DVD April 24th and should be shown on 'syfy' (what clown thought this was a good re branding) sometime before.. us Irish can rip it off the net any time after that.. as you do.

Syferus

Exneigh wrote: »

I'm mourning the loss of this great Show

I hope Caprica is good, most the write up's I've read so far say it has all the elements that made BSG so good.. except pew pew space fights..

unedited Pilot available on DVD April 24th and should be shown on 'syfy' (what clown thought this was a good re branding) sometime before.. us Irish can rip it off the net any time after that.. as you do.

Or - shock - just buy it.

Exneigh

Syferus wrote: »

Or - shock - just buy it.

Buy a pilot on DVD?

that will happen.

Manic Moran

Count me in on the slightly underwhelmed camp.

The series got off to such a fantastic start way back in Season 1. 2 wasn't that bad either. It lost its way in three, and started to resurrect itself in 4, failing a little at the end. There were just too many loose ends to tie up, and using filler time on Caprica flashbacks instead of tying up the loose ends was a bit of a waste.

When I first got hooked on the series, it was simple. There were the goodies, and there were the baddies. Lots of explosions and actions. (Good for simple men like myself). But the characters had depth, making it believable.

Then it turned into a bit of a diatribe upon humanity. All of a sudden, pretty much every single character had skeletons in their closet. Not flaws, we all have those, but you got to the point of thinking 'If these guys represent humanity, humanity deserves to die.' (I'll give an exception to Cottle)

Then you had it turn into a political essay on Iraq. For crying out loud, I just want to be entertained. If I wanted politics, I'd listen to the Presidential Election Campaigns.

And finally it turned into religion.

WTF? What happened to the series I got hooked on? How about those Cylon characters, those guys with the red light swooshing back and forth that we haven't seen in like the last six episodes (or whatever).

I'm sorry, I didn't like the Opera House thing. It's been going on for years, as if it was an important part of the series. Then it turns out all they needed to do was bring the kid to CIC. Gee, that's a bit of a let-down.

I mean, it wasn't a bad finale. You do get a sense of closure, although there are certainly a few plot holes and things which you wish they had explained a little bit better. Somehow, though, I think they just ended up with a closing episode which just made the best of the bad lot it had been given.

So did Galen Tyrol end up founding the Gaelic tribes? What did they do with the Raptors and why haven't we found one yet? (And why didn't they just park Galactica on the far side of the moon? When Humanity got advanced enough to find it, they might do well to learn whatever lessons they might have left behind)

Overheal wrote: »

On the robots note, last week marked a major milestone for the coming doom when a completely autonomous UAV made a human kill.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25656&Itemid=128

so clearly despite Terminator being a shiny warning to humanity since the 80s, we still aren't listening. So I agree with Moore on the reiteration of the point.

It seems to me that that was no a fully autonomous kill, and that the two human operators were in the loop. That said autonomous systems such as Aegis have been around since the 1980s.

NTM

Rented Mule

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Like she says I guess, God "has no sides".

Seems like 'god' likes to thin the herd ever couple of hundred thousand years or so.

Rented Mule

Manic Moran wrote: »

So did Galen Tyrol end up founding the Gaelic tribes?

NTM

Now you now where all of the inherent begrudgery comes from !!