BSG 2003 S4E15 "No Exit" **FRACKING SPOILERS**

Goodshape

silvine wrote: »

The Cylons were the 13th tribe who left Kobol.

The 'skinjob' Cylons were the 13th tribe.

They settled on Earth and created their own Cylons who rebelled and killed them.

Created their own slave race of metal Cylons, yeah.

By the time the final five reached the 12 colonies the humans had created their own Cylons and were in a war with them.

Yes.

So the final five gave these new Cylons reseurrection technology if they agreed to stop the war

No, they had resurrection already. The final five gave them the knowledge to build skinjobs.

but they were betrayed had their memories wiped and were sent to live in hiding by Cavil.

Yes.

So: Who created the final five?

The 'final five' were part of the 13th Colony who were the original Cylons from Kobol. 12 tribes of humans, 1 tribe of Cylon skinjobs. So they (or their ancestors... as they did develop biological procreation) were created by the original humans of Kobol.

What happened to the original cylons/humans?

They made up the 12 tribes of humans and 1 tribe of Cylons.

Does the first Cylon war have anything to do with theskin jobs?

The 'first' one that happened 40 years ago? No, not really. That was a war between the 12 human tribes and the metal cylons they created to serve them (history repeating itself / "all this has happened before and will happen again".

Does anyone else's head hurt?

Just a little... but I think I've got a grip on it

Syferus

noodler wrote: »

Truly awful argument there mate. Basically amounts to "I wouldn't really find that interesting". I think the majority of us would love to see how the traitors were dealt with.

What do you mean potential actions? Mutiny is treason and treason warrants the death sentence.

You were hinting at how their potential killing of Lee would mean they might have deserved death, the fact they mutinied is a given. They can't be tried for what might have happened in any case.

And again, it's not that it's not interesting, but it would feel old hat if they had a major storylie the next episode dealing with very peripheral characters like those one or other simliar ones, again retracing the steps taken in 'Collaborators', a few episodes from the end of the series.

It's simply not what I want them - or most other people would want, I'd safely assume - to devote sigificant amounts of time to, at least not from the peripheral characters' point of view.
A more interesting slant would be something to do with Helo and his exprience, especially since Helo's been in the background for quite a few episodes now.

Rented Mule

I watched this episode over agin las night and enjoyed it even more the second time around. The religous overtones are really being played quite well, and in some cases quite subtley.

Did anyone else catch Ellen offering Boomer the apple(knowledge), that she turned down, as she was explaining everything to her ?

My mind suddenly took off in another direction for a moment there. Is Ellen the devil ?? lol

noodler

Syferus wrote: »

You were hinting at how their potential killing of Lee would mean they might have deserved death, the fact they mutinied is a given. They can't be tried for what might have happened in any case.

And again, it's not that it's not interesting, but it would feel old hat if they had a major storylie the next episode dealing with very peripheral characters like those one or other simliar ones, again retracing the steps taken in 'Collaborators', a few episodes from the end of the series.

It's simply not what I want them - or most other people would want, I'd safely assume - to devote sigificant amounts of time to, at least not from the peripheral characters' point of view.
A more interesting slant would be something to do with Helo and his exprience, especially since Helo's been in the background for quite a few episodes now.

You see you are now using the word significant time when I didn't even hint at it! A couple of minutes would have done the trick-not an entire episode! As it is we know nothing although we can assume this or that.

Regarding your Lee point....are you serious? Are you suggesting a man who is stopped from murdering another shouldn't be punished? The scale of the crime is only intensified when the military are involved. Of course you would be punished.

Oh and at least one other fan wanted some explanation on the point since the question was asked by a fan to the writers in the above FAQ.

Syferus

Syferus wrote: »

I really don't want them to spend large amounts of what little time the show has left repeating 'Collabrators', so it's hard for me to be too worried about them putting a nice moralistic you-reap-what-you-sow slant on a storyline, the sorts of things Battlestar has thankfully strayed away from.

I think it's a little much to want those characters dead for their potential actions, but it's hard to imagine any of them being let service anything but the hanger floors aboard Galactica, if ineed, they still are. You also have to remember just how peripheral most of them are - a rung lower than even one-minute storyline wonders like Hotdog. Battlestar has such a huge established cast that it has to centre on groups at a time to avoid it becoming directionless mush.

And again, it's probably too early to assume there won't be references and nuggets about the mutiny's aftermath to come, especially since Battlestar has always done a good job at keeping it's past current.


On a different note, those Cavil-Tyrol counseling sessions is season 2 yet again take on a new perspective when you take into account Cavil's knowledge. And yeah, some of it is on-the-fly filling in, but the show has done such a good job in leaving the gaps to make these turns believable and sensible.

Never disagreed that it could get a cameo part and it would be succinct and thus interesting, but not some sort of thing where all the 'established' cast get nice rounded-out conclusions.

On the Lee thing - again - no one said they wouldn't be punished, but I doubt a death penalty would be fitting, especially given the already fractured nature of the ship. The more quietly the aftermath of something like this can be dealt with, the better for the well being of the fleet and Galactica in particular. Show trials (which would be necessary moral device if characters outside the ringleaders were to be made 'pay' for their actions beyond demotion or discharge) would be anything but, and would again retrace much of the ground covered in Balthar's rather long trial at the end of last season.

Goodshape

Rented Mule wrote: »

My mind suddenly took off in another direction for a moment there. Is Ellen the devil ?? lol

Surely Ellen would be closer to God for the skinjobs. She created them and gave them freewill -- including the free will to accept or decline the apple . Perhaps the symbolism was intended to show that Boomer hadn't yet completely turned against her... she still has respect for her creator and, thus, turned down the appl (unlike Adam and Eve, who ate the fruit and were then expelled from the garden).

Cavill, the fallen one, would be the Devil

mewso

I am looking forward to "Caprica" I must say. That scene where they make the design decision to build large scary looking metal robots with machine guns and red eyes to do their heavy lifting will be good.

BlitzKrieg

Jesjes wrote: »

Thats a good read. I think the next few episodes are going to have us just as wound up. I wonder how long it'd take to watch the whole series from start to finish? A weekend wouldnt be enough.

2 weeks there abouts

I bought the mini series last weekend after the constant badgering of monkeyfudge

Watched it saturday evening, went and got seris 1, got through that by monday night

series 2 was tuesday wednesday thursday and finished friday afternoon

series 3 was the weekend

and I just caught up with you guys last night.

so 12 days with an average of 3-4 episodes a weeknight and 10 a weekend.

Syferus

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

2 weeks there abouts

I bought the mini series last weekend after the constant badgering of monkeyfudge

Watched it saturday evening, went and got seris 1, got through that by monday night

series 2 was tuesday wednesday thursday and finished friday afternoon

series 3 was the weekend

and I just caught up with you guys last night.

so 12 days with an average of 3-4 episodes a weeknight and 10 a weekend.

I could never imagine watching Battlestar, of all shows, in a marathon format. It's such a dense show that I enjoy stewing over each epiosde for a while before moving on almost as much as watching the episode. When I was catching up I made sure to only watch one a night (ok, I own up - I watched both parts of Exodus at once. The first part was all tease and no show, and I couldn't take waiting) to give myself some breathing room.

To each their own.

Goodshape

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

2 weeks there abouts

Haha

So what's your verdict on the show as a whole so far? Must be a fairly different experience to most of us, having had a number of excruciatingly long breaks between seasons and mid-seasons.

BlitzKrieg

my life has been a mess for those 2 weeks.

going to bed at 5qam and getting up for work the next morning and having nothing but galactica on my mind.

I havnt cooked properly either because thats wasting valuable watching time

and now i am behind on terminator and house.

Overheal

lol.

You can catch both on hulu o'course.

BlitzKrieg

Goodshape wrote: »

So what's your verdict on the show as a whole so far? Must be a fairly different experience to most of us, having had a number of excruciatingly long breaks between seasons and mid-seasons.

If i had to experiance those breaks i probably would have killed someone.

especially the last two


And Saul tigh is the best fraking character on the show!

And my question on the whole affair

If earth got nuked by the cylons that the 13th tribe (also cylon) created and the final 5 are of the 13th tribe variant. Where are the nuking cylons? Are they the ones leading Karra Thrace along?

Goodshape

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

If earth got nuked by the cylons that the 13th tribe (also cylon) created and the final 5 are of the 13th tribe variant. Where are the nuking cylons? Are they the ones leading Karra Thrace along?

Best question I've heard so far! Don't think anything has been mentioned about the fate of those Cylons (yet?), and of course that all happened thousands of years ago -- they could have evolved and developed quite a bit since then.

BlitzKrieg

it works when you tie in Starbuck being the harbinger of doom, she's being manipulated by these unseen cylons who might to tie in with john/cavil have gone very much down the machine route of evolution and are now systematicly bringing everyone together for a final clensing.

Cavil etc side with them while the colonials/rebels etc side with the final 5 and we get out finale man vs machine battle where the notion of being a machine and being human is not about wiring or blood but about philosaphy of life and love (or lack of)

Syferus

Goodshape wrote: »

Best question I've heard so far! Don't think anything has been mentioned about the fate of those Cylons (yet?), and of course that all happened thousands of years ago -- they could have evolved and developed quite a bit since then.

The mid-season opener was pretty clear in that they meant that both sides were devestated from the nuclear war, alá every apocalyptic Cold War story ever made.

The Final Five are the 'Final Five' survivors from Earth.

So yeah, you can cut that theory off the pile at least.
Not like we're berift of them, now is it?

Overheal

Syferus wrote: »

The mid-season opener was pretty clear in that they meant that both sides were devestated from the nuclear war, alá every apocalyptic Cold War story ever made.

The Final Five are the 'Final Five' survivors from Earth.

So yeah, you can cut that theory off the pile at least.
Not like we're berift of them, now is it?

"There are 12 Cylon models. I am Number Six."

noodler

Syferus wrote: »

Never disagreed that it could get a cameo part and it would be succinct and thus interesting, but not some sort of thing where all the 'established' cast get nice rounded-out conclusions.

On the Lee thing - again - no one said they wouldn't be punished, but I doubt a death penalty would be fitting, especially given the already fractured nature of the ship. The more quietly the aftermath of something like this can be dealt with, the better for the well being of the fleet and Galactica in particular. Show trials (which would be necessary moral device if characters outside the ringleaders were to be made 'pay' for their actions beyond demotion or discharge) would be anything but, and would again retrace much of the ground covered in Balthar's rather long trial at the end of last season.

I don't think you have trials in these situations. Do you remember the Pegasus episode and Cain? A "court martial" was done and dusted in about 15 seconds. It is nothing like Baltar's trial-all Baltar's charges lack the neccessary evidence and he did nothing wrong on New Caprica in my book. This is open and armed defiance against Adama which the big man promised he wouldn't forgive.

Now I do understand we have time restrictions etc but that doesn't mean some more light being shed on the fate of the mutineers would have been beneficial. Hell it seemed like the majority of the non-civilians were with Gaeta. Also how weak was it when the 10 or so Marines assigned to his execution jumped ship back to Adama's side? I mean did they actually mutiny for a principle or what-even worse why didn't they just take Adama and co down once they got their weapons back. It was a good story but it suffered wildly by having to be put down so succintly and unrealistically.


Back to more recent discussion I am robbing this idead from BSGCast (you guys should check out that site btw if you don't know about it-they have a two person discussion on the episodes as they go and even have some pretty good interviews) but I think there is merit to anyone saying Kara, and possibly Baltar, are Lords of Kobol.

DirkVoodoo

Goodshape wrote: »

Best question I've heard so far! Don't think anything has been mentioned about the fate of those Cylons (yet?), and of course that all happened thousands of years ago -- they could have evolved and developed quite a bit since then.

They dug up centurions with the cylons. The centurions turned on the humanoid cylons, nuked the planet and only the final 5 escaped because they had just developed resurrection. I'm guessing everyone else (cylons and centurions) were wiped out in the ensuing fallout.

Just my understanding.

I like the apple spot as well, I missed that one.

Aren't we lucky to have a great series being wrapped up in an even better final season. I just watched sarah connor chronicles there, what a pile of toss. It tries very hard to be something more but it cant escape the shackles of the terminator 1 & 2 mythos. Its like watching an entire series of badly written fan fiction.

BlitzKrieg

They dug up centurions with the cylons. The centurions turned on the humanoid cylons, nuked the planet and only the final 5 escaped because they had just developed resurrection. I'm guessing everyone else (cylons and centurions) were wiped out in the ensuing fallout.

Sorry I was just under the assumption that the nuking of earth was done in a similar fashion of the nuking of the colonies, from spaceships in orbit.

It does seem a bit weird that the final 5 were able to recreate a very powerful ancient technology and they were also the only one with the spaceship.


It also could be an issue that the cylon *survivors* are like the final five a fringe element that nobody knows about. They could very well be the force behind Starbucks actions, or not.

Slutmonkey57b

I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that the 13th tribe created their own cylons. From what I saw, the 13th and the centurions were living on the planet, and were nuked by an outside force. No reason to believe it wasn't one of the *other* 12 tribes, who at that point may have developed jump drives, or Pythia, or one of the Lords of Kobol. Anders only stated that "they got warning" of an attack.

BlitzKrieg

But the whole point of the final 5's journey was to stop the humans from mistreating their own cylons and destroying each other.

Suaimhneach

CodeMonkey wrote: »

Writers answer questions about episode "No Exit" here.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

2 weeks there abouts

I bought the mini series last weekend after the constant badgering of monkeyfudge

Watched it saturday evening, went and got seris 1, got through that by monday night

series 2 was tuesday wednesday thursday and finished friday afternoon

series 3 was the weekend

and I just caught up with you guys last night.

so 12 days with an average of 3-4 episodes a weeknight and 10 a weekend.

Syferus wrote: »

I could never imagine watching Battlestar, of all shows, in a marathon format. It's such a dense show that I enjoy stewing over each epiosde for a while before moving on almost as much as watching the episode.

I dunno. I joined BSG about mid way through season two, and I watched most of the rest in two episode chunks. Some of it was so good I'd be shouting at the TV. I would have done it in a really long weekender if I wasnt mid-exams at the time. I think I will re-watch it. When it's over anyway.

Niska

Overheal wrote: »

"There are 12 Cylon models. I am Number Six."

I am NOT a number - I'm a free Cylon!

Vokes

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Cavil etc side with them while the colonials/rebels etc side with the final 5 and we get out finale man vs machine battle where the notion of being a machine and being human is not about wiring or blood but about philosaphy of life and love (or lack of)

Wow, that's deep :pac:

DirkVoodoo

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

But the whole point of the final 5's journey was to stop the humans from mistreating their own cylons and destroying each other.

Exactly, I'm pretty sure either Ellen or Anders mentioned this. Or else it is in the link to the writer's interview.

Just watching the episode again, about 23 mins in Anders says "we needed to find the other tribes and warn them, we knew they would continue to create artificial life, we needed to tell them to treat them well, keep them close. But the time we reached the colonies they were at war with the centurions, it had happened again".

Assuming that the cylons on Earth had abandoned resurrection after they began to procreate, it is reasonable to further assume that the Cylons age as we do and Anders could not be referring to the incident on Kobol but to the holocaust on Earth. From this I would infer that the centurions rose up and rebelled against their cylon creators. After all, the Earth cylons are nearly identical to humans, having evolved into their current forms over thousands of years of natural reproduction, so they are less like the Cylon models we know and more like the human colonists.

Syferus

noodler wrote: »

I don't think you have trials in these situations. Do you remember the Pegasus episode and Cain? A "court martial" was done and dusted in about 15 seconds. It is nothing like Baltar's trial-all Baltar's charges lack the neccessary evidence and he did nothing wrong on New Caprica in my book. This is open and armed defiance against Adama which the big man promised he wouldn't forgive.

Now I do understand we have time restrictions etc but that doesn't mean some more light being shed on the fate of the mutineers would have been beneficial. Hell it seemed like the majority of the non-civilians were with Gaeta. Also how weak was it when the 10 or so Marines assigned to his execution jumped ship back to Adama's side? I mean did they actually mutiny for a principle or what-even worse why didn't they just take Adama and co down once they got their weapons back. It was a good story but it suffered wildly by having to be put down so succintly and unrealistically.


Back to more recent discussion I am robbing this idead from BSGCast (you guys should check out that site btw if you don't know about it-they have a two person discussion on the episodes as they go and even have some pretty good interviews) but I think there is merit to anyone saying Kara, and possibly Baltar, are Lords of Kobol.

Well on the, shall we say, luquidity of people's allegiances you have to realise how almost all of the rank and file mutinieers still had a huge amount of admiration for Adama, which of course brings up the question why would they do it in the first place, but it's not a simplistic reason or an absolute one-sided argument.

The cylons killed most of the characters' families and have chase them for years by this point, so of course alot would be receptive to nationalistic extreamism that Gaeta and Zarek represented.
But again, they would be conflicted by the fact Adama has saved the fleet so many times and brought them so far.

So I'd see the flip-flopping as the most realistic thing in the whole storyline, especially if we're to expect after the muntiny that Galactica will be able to function in any meaningful way.

On that Kara theory, I dont know anythng about her now.
The Hybrid's speech: ''Thus will it come to pass. A dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House. The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. End of Line. ''

It seems the 'them' may be the Final Five (their deaths on Earth), Dianna (staying on Earth) and Roslin (the absolute destruction of her self-belief and eventual demise) rather than being the whole of humanity that she will lead to their end. So prehaps her 'destiny' has been fufilled, but then the Razor Hybrid had earlier said she would lead humanity to its end, so I'm not even sure on that.

And to one up your recommendation, anyone that doesn't know about the Battlestar Wiki should check it out: http://en.battlestarwiki.org. Great for bluffing your way through any factual agrument.

Derek Coleman

noodler wrote: »

Back to more recent discussion I am robbing this idead from BSGCast (you guys should check out that site btw if you don't know about it-they have a two person discussion on the episodes as they go and even have some pretty good interviews) but I think there is merit to anyone saying Kara, and possibly Baltar, are Lords of Kobol.

I came to that conclusion by myself when I read the definition of a DEITY which is a term used to describe the lords of Kobol. Google it. The wikipedia definition is Baltar and Kara to a tee.

MisterAnarchy

I see the series has been lengthened by one episode .
There will now be 21 episodes in series 4 instead of 20.Super
So 6 more episodes left .

Overheal

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I see the series has been lengthened by one episode .
There will now be 21 episodes in series 4 instead of 20.Super
So 6 more episodes left .

?

Even the producers have been quoted saying there are 5 episodes left.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html

Who or what, then, is Starbuck?

Ryan: Do you really want to me to answer that with five episodes to go? C’mon… tune in next week.