BSG 2003 S4E15 "No Exit" **FRACKING SPOILERS**

noodler

There was definitely something about an extra episode or maybe is just a vastly extended finale. They were talking about it months ago.

noodler

Syferus wrote: »

Well on the, shall we say, luquidity of people's allegiances you have to realise how almost all of the rank and file mutinieers still had a huge amount of admiration for Adama, which of course brings up the question why would they do it in the first place, but it's not a simplistic reason or an absolute one-sided argument.

The cylons killed most of the characters' families and have chase them for years by this point, so of course alot would be receptive to nationalistic extreamism that Gaeta and Zarek represented.
But again, they would be conflicted by the fact Adama has saved the fleet so many times and brought them so far.

So I'd see the flip-flopping as the most realistic thing in the whole storyline, especially if we're to expect after the muntiny that Galactica will be able to function in any meaningful way.

On that Kara theory, I dont know anythng about her now.
The Hybrid's speech: ''Thus will it come to pass. A dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House. The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. End of Line. ''

It seems the 'them' may be the Final Five (their deaths on Earth), Dianna (staying on Earth) and Roslin (the absolute destruction of her self-belief and eventual demise) rather than being the whole of humanity that she will lead to their end. So prehaps her 'destiny' has been fufilled, but then the Razor Hybrid had earlier said she would lead humanity to its end, so I'm not even sure on that.

And to one up your recommendation, anyone that doesn't know about the Battlestar Wiki should check it out: http://en.battlestarwiki.org. Great for bluffing your way through any factual agrument.

Again, your argument pretty much amounts to "it had to be that way otherwise we would have no Galactica for the last few episodes". Again you are making it sound like I want half the crew executed.

You should work for RDM, you'd do a job trying to explain away any weaknesses in plotline!

kevmy

noodler wrote: »

There was definitely something about an extra episode or maybe is just a vastly extended finale. They were talking about it months ago.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the last episode is a double one. In fact think it's offically 3 hours long but split over 2 weeks into two parts one normal length the other a double ep

Branoic

So do we know yet if "Earth" is really Earth, or is this still up in the air?

When the first 4 of the final 5 were revealed, many people were saying, "Nah, there's something else up, these 4 aren't really Cylon", and then when Ellen was revealed as the 5th lots of people didn't believe it either, so I'm just wondering if we're doing something similar with Earth, telling ourselves that it's not really Earth, and then we'll be disappointed if there's no big "real" Earth reveal in the last episodes.

And if it *is* Earth, is it our Earth? I mean, is it meant to be in our reality or dimension or whatever, and not in some alternate universe? If it is our Earth in our universe, then where are we? At what point in the Earth's history did the nuking occur? Out of all the series' questions, these are the ones I'm most interested in finding out.

todd10k

monosharp wrote: »

Tigh served in the first cylon war ...

I'm confused.

Tigh didnt. He thinks he served in the first war. Big difference.

As for the episode, awww hell yeah. I absolutly love this show, it is the finest example of how sci-fi has matured to become the premier genre of our generation. Im so glad the admiral came around at the end to saving galactica from "osteoparosis", as i call it. I wonder though, with this new technology that they're bringing from the cylon base star, ever wonder if the ship could develop it's own "personality"?

Just a thought.

Vokes

Branoic wrote: »

And if it *is* Earth, is it our Earth? I mean, is it meant to be in our reality or dimension or whatever, and not in some alternate universe? If it is our Earth in our universe, then where are we? At what point in the Earth's history did the nuking occur? Out of all the series' questions, these are the ones I'm most interested in finding out.

+1

Hope our Earth is weaved into the BSG mythology somewhere. "Life here began out there...".

Will be disappointed if it isn't.

kowloon

Johnny Storm wrote: »

The other major character who needs some explaining is Balthar and his head-Six. Tortured supergenius = "sensitive", "frail", "artistic", Daniel?

What happened to head-six? And on that matter: what happened to six's head-Balthar? I've forgotten so much.

DirkVoodoo

I hope people are not expecting 1980s earth where Adama will save us from the invading cylons, that would suck.

If it is earth, then it is simply a setting for the 13th tribe that has been woven into the BSG mythos. What do people want? That they find us, on earth and live happily ever after? Somehow I don't think RDM works that way.

I think we found earth, not the earth we live on but the earth of the BSG universe (fiction people!) and it was populated by cylons.

That's where we are, dealing with that emotional knockback that the promised land for humanities survivors is a nuclear wasteland and the fleet is disintegrating rapidly: both in a physical and social sense.

Surely that's much more exciting and interesting than seeing if they reach "our" earth?

Derek Coleman

+1 on the above

Don't know what people were expecting from Earth.

Hi, we are humans from another planet and we want to stay because your like our distant cousins. But just FYI that there might be a few killer robots behind us but they're harmless.

I want them to go back to Earth and uncover some secrets or something but I'm happy for Earth to be destroyed and leave it at that.

Sad Professor

Yeah, I think I'll be pissed if it turns out there's another "real" Earth. If they find a new planet and call it "New Earth" that's fine. But if we discover out the planet in Revelations was just a wrong turn, it will make everything that's happened since kinda pointless. It would be like pressing the old reset button.

I'm also hoping that Moore has something more profound planned for the end than the fleet just finding another planet and having a big battle with the cylons over it.

Syferus

todd10k wrote: »

Tigh didnt. He thinks he served in the first war. Big difference.

As for the episode, awww hell yeah. I absolutly love this show, it is the finest example of how sci-fi has matured to become the premier genre of our generation. Im so glad the admiral came around at the end to saving galactica from "osteoparosis", as i call it. I wonder though, with this new technology that they're bringing from the cylon base star, ever wonder if the ship could develop it's own "personality"?

Just a thought.

Wooh there, horse!
The travesties that where Star Trek Voyager, Flash Gordon and Bionic Woman (made by Battlestar's seemingly vastly over-rated David Eik) still resonate strongly and the fact Battlestar is the only sci-fi tv show to capture the imagination of the public and be halfways realistic seem to contradict your love-in.

Sci-fi is, if anything, more hit-and-miss than any other genre. It can hit spectacularly better than other genres (Battlestar), but it's base-line quaility is all over the place.

You can say everything under the Sun about the seemingly hundreds of US crime dramas in production now, but even they are mostly competent.

''Premier genre of our generation'' is a little too much to stomach, especially with the mingling of genres that has happened recently, where shows thread the lines between genres rather than being blockcaded into one or the other.

Syferus

noodler wrote: »

Again, your argument pretty much amounts to "it had to be that way otherwise we would have no Galactica for the last few episodes". Again you are making it sound like I want half the crew executed.

You should work for RDM, you'd do a job trying to explain away any weaknesses in plotline!

You're simplifying my argument into something that it's not.

Every little strand doesn't deserve a neat end, and in the oppisite sense Battlestar has always been very good at having reprocussions for peoples' actions. The fact is, as I've tried to get across more than once, we're only one episode removed from the muntiny. I'm sure the results of some characters will feature, but it's unreasonable to expect every little character to even get a few seconds.

And if anything, the mutiny makes Galactica far weaker for the last few episodes. In the event of an attack or some sort of disturbance in the fleet, who exactly can Adama trust? Having some mutineers still involved creates an extra schism, but it is realistic to expect some them might still feature given the fact Galactica is far from overstocked with trained soliders, pilots and engineers.

Talisman

noodler wrote: »

Okay in respose t the New Caprica thing first. I think that situation was different, I mean even Adama couldn't declare Baltar guilty and he was the head of the puppet government.
Whereas he says clearly that, unlike with he situation on New Caprica, there will be no amnesty for outright mutiny. With no basestar presentat New Caprica for so long I argue lines were blurred down there.

Racetrack, Skulls and Connor were also all a second away from killing an unarmed Lee in coldblood before Starbuck showed up. Whatever about his own life being threatened, I couldn't see William Adama being as forgiving when it comes to Lee's.
I guess we can assume that the more senior members of the mutiny were demoted or put in less sensitive areas but the fact that we have to assume doesn't do much to support the argument that the mutiny ending was well done IMO.

With regards Zarek misleading people: no doubt that the killing of the Quarom was not sanctioned by the mutineers but I think it is a stretch (based on what they showed us) to say the mutineers were misled into their actions. They still did a bunch of despicable things, I mean try to kill Lee, beat the crap out of Anders and Lee, try to Kill Adama (and kill poor Jaffy instead) etc etc. What I am tryinf to say in this final paragraph is that much of the traitorous acts against people who have saved the fleet time and time again were done without much of Zarek's misleading.

Regarding Gaeta's mutiny - it was feeding off of ill feeling towards individuals rather than the ideals of Gaeta. Zarek had the support of nobody on the Qorum.

The Galactica being an old ship and Adama's opposition to the deployment of a computer network facilitated the actions of Gaeta. He was able to single handedly control the situation from the bridge because all access to information sources went through his console. If the Galactica was relatively modern then Gaeta would have had a harder task.

Throughout the series we have seen that the people of the fleet are sheep. They will follow anybody who was willing to step up and manipulate them. When the decisions on the fate of the fleet was left to the populace they inevitably made the bad choice - settle on New Caprica versus continuing the search for Earth. Roslin stepping back from her role as leader of the government created a vacuum which Zarek was more than willing to fill.

Zarek and Gaeta were the source of a cancer and by eliminating them, the notions of the rebellious individuals will evaporate sharpish - there isn't another leader amongst them. They may harbour ill feeling but they won't dare act upon it.

The main players in terms of remaining leaders within the civilian fleet are Baltar and Lee Adama. Baltar has the monotheism believers and Adama is the democratic leader. Interestingly the Cylons could by put into those two categories - Centurions and Raiders -> Monotheism, Skinjob Models -> Democracy.

Overheal

I'm much happier knowing that was Earth, but then I do wonder where the hell it is they are going

Derek Coleman

There was 12 planets but we only ever see Caprica getting nuked. Surely to god one of those 12 planets can support the 30+ thousand people left.

Actually if they resolve their differences with the cylons they can go back to new Caprica.

P.S. It was pretty good luck that the 12 colonies found 12 inhabitable planets in the one solar system way back when they left Kobol. Damn lucky.

Slutmonkey57b

Derek Coleman wrote: »

P.S. It was pretty good luck that the 12 colonies found 12 inhabitable planets in the one solar system way back when they left Kobol. Damn lucky.

Who said all 12 planets were in the same system? Or that they were all planets? They are only ever referred to as "colonies".

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

But the whole point of the final 5's journey was to stop the humans from mistreating their own cylons and destroying each other.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Exactly, I'm pretty sure either Ellen or Anders mentioned this. Or else it is in the link to the writer's interview.

Just watching the episode again, about 23 mins in Anders says "we needed to find the other tribes and warn them, we knew they would continue to create artificial life, we needed to tell them to treat them well, keep them close. But the time we reached the colonies they were at war with the centurions, it had happened again".

Those ideas don't necessarily prove, or even suggest, that Earth was nuked by rebelling mechanoid cylons created by humanoid cylons. All we're told is that the 5 got warning of an impending attack, worked to save themselves, then left to try and warn the other 12 tribes, to show them that through understanding and compassion, humans and cylons didn't have to be at war. That last point, and the presence of centurions on Earth, points to me that this came about as a result of the 13th tribe living in peace and harmony, only to have that destroyed be persons or entities unknown.

Syferus

Derek Coleman wrote: »

There was 12 planets but we only ever see Caprica getting nuked. Surely to god one of those 12 planets can support the 30+ thousand people left.

Actually if they resolve their differences with the cylons they can go back to new Caprica.

P.S. It was pretty good luck that the 12 colonies found 12 inhabitable planets in the one solar system way back when they left Kobol. Damn lucky.

It's never been said that the twelve colonies where in one system, and it's hugely unlikely that they are, especially since FTL means that large distances can be tranversed relatively quickly, even baring the fact twelve habitable planets in one system is impossible to begin with.

And while Caprica featured prominently being nuked, others ones where shown being simliarily devestated by nuclear attacks from orbit in both the mini-series and Razor. Remember, the Cylons intended to wipe out humanity one attack, so it'd be pretty stupid of them not to nuke all twelve.

All twelve would be just like Caprica, in a condition where humans can only survive with radiation medication, and as radiation has a habit of making people sterile the Twelve Colonies are pretty much a no go, even if Cavil somehow decided he was completely wrong and made happy times with the fleet.

Just look at Earth, simliarily devestated by nuclear explosions and without the capacity to support the fleet even 4,000 or so years after the end of the war there.

Overheal

Derek Coleman wrote: »

There was 12 planets but we only ever see Caprica getting nuked. Surely to god one of those 12 planets can support the 30+ thousand people left.

Actually if they resolve their differences with the cylons they can go back to new Caprica.

P.S. It was pretty good luck that the 12 colonies found 12 inhabitable planets in the one solar system way back when they left Kobol. Damn lucky.

It is never actually said they were all in one system, only that Galactica had not performed an FTL jump in 40 years. That doesnt mean the enlistees aboard had never experienced a jump (Cally: I really hate this part...) or that other ships regularly perform jumps to other neighbouring star systems or orbits.

DirkVoodoo

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Those ideas don't necessarily prove, or even suggest, that Earth was nuked by rebelling mechanoid cylons created by humanoid cylons. All we're told is that the 5 got warning of an impending attack, worked to save themselves, then left to try and warn the other 12 tribes, to show them that through understanding and compassion, humans and cylons didn't have to be at war. That last point, and the presence of centurions on Earth, points to me that this came about as a result of the 13th tribe living in peace and harmony, only to have that destroyed be persons or entities unknown.

So who do you think this attack was from? Martians are out of the picture, we have never come across Alien life in BSG and I don't think that is going to change. If the Cylons on earth had abandoned resurrection a long time ago and begun to reproduce naturally, essentially becoming human themselves, why would the centurions continue in the same state over the course of thousands of years since leaving Kobol. It is reasonable, is it not, that the Cylons leaving Kobol evolved over thousands of years, created artificial life of their own which then rebelled and attacked, leaving Earth in ruins and destroying all of that civilization in the process.

This would fit perfectly with the repeating cycle, the created destroying the creator. Just because the Cylons are "organic" machines themselves, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't eventually create life to serve them and eventually mistreat them. The Cylons from the colonies have evolved over a very short space of time, yet even the human models treat the centurions as second class citizens (remember Cavil's Lobotomizing idea).

I don't think the cylons on Earth lived in peace and harmony with the centurions they created, why then would the final 5 be so desperate to reach the colonies and warn the humans about how they use artificial life in a servile capacity? Why would they live on Earth for thousands of years, then decide "ya know, they might have created cylon servants, we should go warn them not to be mean. Oh wait, the martians are attacking us!"

EDIT: In the above I'm leaving out Starbuck's role on Earth. I don't know how she fits into this as the "Harbinger of doom" or whatever she is, so I'm ignoring making any assumptions about her until the very end

Vokes

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I hope people are not expecting 1980s earth where Adama will save us from the invading cylons, that would suck.

If it is earth, then it is simply a setting for the 13th tribe that has been woven into the BSG mythos. What do people want? That they find us, on earth and live happily ever after? Somehow I don't think RDM works that way.

I think we found earth, not the earth we live on but the earth of the BSG universe (fiction people!) and it was populated by cylons.

That's where we are, dealing with that emotional knockback that the promised land for humanities survivors is a nuclear wasteland and the fleet is disintegrating rapidly: both in a physical and social sense.

Surely that's much more exciting and interesting than seeing if they reach "our" earth?

Nahhh, not 80s Earth. A future Earth would be cool.

Don't think it will be that now though. Cavil mentioned "The Colony" where all of Ellen et al's resurrection equipment is.

That's where the Fleet will be heading.

Slutmonkey57b

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

So who do you think this attack was from? Martians are out of the picture, we have never come across Alien life in BSG and I don't think that is going to change. If the Cylons on earth had abandoned resurrection a long time ago and begun to reproduce naturally, essentially becoming human themselves, why would the centurions continue in the same state over the course of thousands of years since leaving Kobol. It is reasonable, is it not, that the Cylons leaving Kobol evolved over thousands of years, created artificial life of their own which then rebelled and attacked, leaving Earth in ruins and destroying all of that civilization in the process.

Why would artificial lifeforms feel the need to create artificial life? It's far more logical to assume that cylons were attacked by humans, which would also fit better into a cyclical model - they attack us, we attack them, they attack us. Or even we create life, it rebels and destroys us, we destroy them and forget what happened, then create life again.

I don't think the cylons on Earth lived in peace and harmony with the centurions they created, why then would the final 5 be so desperate to reach the colonies and warn the humans about how they use artificial life in a servile capacity? Why would they live on Earth for thousands of years, then decide "ya know, they might have created cylon servants, we should go warn them not to be mean. Oh wait, the martians are attacking us!"

The cycle perpetuates because humans forget what went before, and fail to learn the lessons of the past - and the assumption that humans and cylons were incapable of living in harmony, which is the dynamic being played out in the fleet. The 5 needed to prove to the humans that it was possible for that assumption to be overturned, and that peace could reign if we only gave ourselves over to it.

EDIT: In the above I'm leaving out Starbuck's role on Earth. I don't know how she fits into this as the "Harbinger of doom" or whatever she is, so I'm ignoring making any assumptions about her until the very end

There's also the roles of the Lords of Kobol to consider. At any rate, what happened on earth hasn't been explicitly stated yet, the only one giving information on the subject is brain dead, so we'll have to wait and see what Ellen Tigh says.

MisterAnarchy

Vokes wrote: »

+1

Hope our Earth is weaved into the BSG mythology somewhere. "Life here began out there...".

Will be disappointed if it isn't.

Well if the rumours of the final scene of the series are to believed then you may get your answer.;)

DirkVoodoo

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why would artificial lifeforms feel the need to create artificial life?

Why wouldn't they? Is this not one of the central themes of BSG: What is humanity? Are we human because we are living organisms or is it because we have consciousness? If the Cylons are conscious and self aware, does that not make them human also? The lines between humanity and cylon are either blurred or almost non-existent.

One could argue that Cylons have been programmed to mimic humans, but are we not also programmed to behave a certain way? Is our humanity and our emotions not a part of our programming?

I don't see where the problem is.

Also, why would humans destroy the 13th tribe? The only humans that left Kobol went to the colonies. While Kobol may have become a religious icon as fact became myth over thousands of years, I can't believe that cataclysmic events would occur between humans and cylons that would annihilate entire civilizations and not leave any mark on history as if we had "forgotten". Something would remain, even if it had been diluted by mythology like the Kobol scriptures.

You make some interesting points however, and its good we can have these debates over a show that isn't exactly straightforward and genuinely challenges us to think.

Slutmonkey57b

I think if the 13th had been nuked by their own creations, then the 5 wouldn't have been so keen to tell the humans to embrace their creations - they would have left to warn the humans to stop doing it. It's been deliberately left vague for the moment I suspect. Only a few hours to go....

Suaimhneach

I cant frakin' wait.
Saturday mornings are awesome with BSG.
Though the NTL guy is coming, hopefully not half way through the episode!!

Derek Coleman

Just posting this for any unbelievers that think there isn't infact 12 planets. No mention of the same solar system but I guess we'll learn that in time.

http://www.thedeadbolt.com/news/105371/caprica_interview.php

How often in Caprica will there be reference sort of to the world of Battlestar Galactica? Will we be seeing, like, Gaeta's grandfather ...
MOORE: I don't think so. I'd like to hope that we probably don't do that.
STOLTZ: We say no now.
MOORE: We say no now. It might be one of those things you just can't resist, but I think the plan is not to really do that. We kind of felt ...
AUBUCHON: I think we made a pretty conscious decision to only make the Adamas the only touchstone to that, I think.
MOORE: Yeah.
AUBUCHON: It's also a whole different world. I mean the 12 planets in Caprica - I don't think I'm giving too much away - are not united in - at all. Each planet has its own government, each - in fact, we're calling this the - there's a prime minister on Caprica now, and there will be a lot of -- part of the plotting will be the conflict between the 12 Colonies.

Overheal

^^^^

Also before anyone says They all exist in a star system called Caprica from reading thet theyre reffering to the name of the new Series :rolleyes:

Johnny Storm

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Well if the rumours of the final scene of the series are to believed then you may get your answer.;)

Spoilers?

DirkVoodoo

Just to back up Derek's point, the 12 colonies are all separate planets and all contained within one system:

"The mythology of the new Galactica is heavily influenced by that established in the original. I've always approached this project with an eye toward taking the original material and making it work in a new context. I still try to do this whenever possible. Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show. The mythology of the old show centered around Kobol and the thirteen 'tribes of man,' so I've kept it as the centerpiece of ours. Not every single element is the same and not every element is even intact, but the roots are there. The point was to make another version of Battlestar Galactica, not just use the name."