What do you make of Jesus Christ?

kiffer · 07-02-2009 5:41pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Thanks kiffer, I'll give it a lash. LOL at the dawkins bit. Dawkins is unfortunately disingenuous to say the least. He lumps islam, judaism and Christianity in the same pile each time. As I said. Disingenuous.

Islam, Judaism and Islam are in the same pile, they are the Abrahamic Religions.
While they have some major major differences (Jesus is God, Jesus is a prophet and wise/holy man but not THE Prophet, Jesus was a guy that may have said some interesting stuff 2000 years ago but not a prophet and defiantly not the Messiah)

Hinduism is the third largest religion 900million... We tend to forget that.
Judaism with only 14 million is not all that major. Sikhism has 23 million and we hardly ever talk about them.

kiffer · 07-02-2009 6:28pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

the quotes thing is too high brow for me. I just cant get it.

if it helps you could just copy and paste the tags from the beginning and end of the quote that appears when you quote people...

as for non biblical info try
http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

there are obviously loads more but that will do for now.

Thanks I enjoyed reading that...
Some of them aren't really contemporaneous with the NT events though... for example Pliny the Younger says that the Christians met up before dawn and venerated Jesus like a god and swore vows (don't lie, don't cheat, steal, defraud, all good stuff)... but this is already much later ~70 years after the death of Jesus...

Josephus and Tacitus are probably the best accounts here.
Tacitus says the Pilate had Jesus(Christus) killed (extreme penalty), he has no reason to say this if it's not true, especially considering he doesn't like them (a most mischievous
superstition).
Nothing really about the details of events sadly and I don't trust religions to not 'massage' details of events... Pontius Pilatus washing his hands of the situation... why should he do that? he was executing a seditious criminal (from the Roman point of view).

I especially like the bit from the Talmud, that saying Jesus(Yeshu) had 40days warning that they were going to stone him, but then they hanged him instead on Passover Eve instead...

philologos · 07-02-2009 6:50pm

There is dispute in Judaism over Yeshu being the Jesus we know in Christianity. Christian apologists and some Jews have asserted this is true, but some say he is another character dating about 100 years before he existed. Plenty to be found about it.

studiorat · 07-02-2009 6:59pm

[QUOTE=kiffer;58937725
Some of them aren't really contemporaneous with the NT events though... for example Pliny the Younger says that the Christians met up before dawn and venerated Jesus like a god and swore vows (don't lie, don't cheat, steal, defraud, all good stuff)... but this is already much later ~70 years after the death of Jesus...
[/QUOTE]

Another Essenes characteristic...

ZondaChai · 07-02-2009 9:36pm

Millions of tonnes of wafers and wine

Oh sorry, what do you make of him. I think he was the Derren Brown of two thousand years ago, when people got a lot more amazed for a lot less.

pljudge321 · 07-02-2009 10:01pm

ZondaChai wrote: »

Millions of tonnes of wafers and wine

Oh sorry, what do you make of him. I think he was the Derren Brown of two thousand years ago, when people got a lot more amazed for a lot less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tivLB07Aos4

Zombrex · 07-02-2009 10:24pm

pljudge321 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tivLB07Aos4

lol ... classic

ChocolateSauce · 08-02-2009 2:04am

My opinion (assuming he existed at all) is that he was stark raving, but not bad or mean.

Also, this is totally off topic, but a certain new poster has reminded me of something from my childhood:

Oh say can you say,

There's cracks in my shack
And there's smoke in my stack
And I think there's a Shnack
In the sack on my back!

aidan24326 · 09-02-2009 6:18pm

sukikettle wrote: »

He was most definitely the Son of God and to deny this means eternal death-the bible states this also and just in case you're tempted to say the bible was written by a bunch of men it is the Word of God placed in the mouths and minds of men through His Holy Spirit

LOL. And you know this how exactly?

EskimoErased · 09-02-2009 7:02pm

sukikettle wrote: »

He was most definitely the Son of God and to deny this means eternal death-the bible states this also and just in case you're tempted to say the bible was written by a bunch of men it is the Word of God placed in the mouths and minds of men through His Holy Spirit.

Oh I think I read something along those lines before...

Think it was on the back of a cereal box.

SoWatchaWant · 09-02-2009 10:14pm

sukikettle wrote: »

He was most definitely the Son of God and to deny this means eternal death-the bible states this also and just in case you're tempted to say the bible was written by a bunch of men it is the Word of God placed in the mouths and minds of men through His Holy Spirit.

Hi Sukikettle,

In the light of what you've said there, regarding God acting through men, what is your stance on the soundness of The line of Popes laid down by Jesus?

sHnaCk · 09-02-2009 11:46pm

SoWatchaWant wrote: »

Hi Sukikettle,

In the light of what you've said there, regarding God acting through men, what is your stance on the soundness of The line of Popes laid down by Jesus?

Jesus did not lay down the line of popes - sheesh - popes are man made and man chosen! Peter was not the 1st pope. what a load of nonsense. it was the revelation that Jesus was the christ that was the "rock the church is built on". catholicism has had this wrong since its inception.
and another thing... while i am at it...
the pope is not the Vicar of Christ!
that is blasphemous
the Vicar of Christ on earth is the Holy Spirit.
so there

09-02-2009 11:51pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Jesus did not lay down the line of popes - sheesh - popes are man made and man chosen! Peter was not the 1st pope. what a load of nonsense. it was the revelation that Jesus was the christ that was the "rock the church is built on". catholicism has had this wrong since its inception.
and another thing... while i am at it...
the pope is not the Vicar of Christ!
that is blasphemous
the Vicar of Christ on earth is the Holy Spirit.
so there

Does the Holy Spirit have its own building or chapel or something? It can't be much of a vicar if you can't get into contact with it.

sHnaCk · 09-02-2009 11:55pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe Christ is the Son of God, I do believe that the Essenes were very similar to the branch of ministry that Christ has offered for example, they lived very withdrawn lifestyles, and in the Gospels it is recorded that Jesus withdrew often by himself for prayer, the Essenes also preached an apocalyptic message. I think that Christianity formed out of this, but I don't see how this ruins Jesus as Messiah and Lord. God had developed the previous Judaism to lead up to when Jesus would preach, just look at how many times Jesus quotes from the Tanakh and the Torah in particular to back up his argument. Wouldn't you agree that Christianity formed out of Judaism? Jesus and the Father are one and the same, I agree with that totally, however what is to say that God had not prepared the theology of the Essenes for when Jesus and John the Baptist were to carry out their ministry?

in my humble opinion only somewhat close to the truth. I dont say this condescendingly by the way.
Judaism is correct and true and necessary for christianity... however it is a vica versa theology. Christianity would not exist without the Jews and Judaism will not come to Jesus without christianity. we need each other. unfortunately it is only the evangelical christians who have this revelation. most other "churches" and denominations, including catholicism practice and teach replacement theology. this is apostacy. you need to read, understand and practice romans 9,10 and 11.!!

sHnaCk · 09-02-2009 11:58pm

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Does the Holy Spirit have its own building or chapel or something? It can't be much of a vicar if you can't get into contact with it.

unfortunately that is an ignorant statement jammie. the reason is that firstly the Holy Spirit is a person and secondly He goes where He wishes, although, become born again and submit yourself to the will of the living God and he will reside in you... because we are the church!

10-02-2009 12:03am

sHnaCk wrote: »

unfortunately that is an ignorant statement jammie. the reason is that firstly the Holy Spirit is a person and secondly He goes where He wishes, although, become born again and submit yourself to the will of the living God and he will reside in you... because we are the church!

Wait... He's a person and he goes where he wishes? I take it that was a typo?

fitz0 · 10-02-2009 12:04am

sHnaCk wrote: »

unfortunately that is an ignorant statement jammie. the reason is that firstly the Holy Spirit is a person and secondly He goes where He wishes, although, become born again and submit yourself to the will of the living God and he will reside in you... because we are the church!

mmmm because that makes perfect sense...

sHnaCk · 10-02-2009 12:08am

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Wait... He's a person and he goes where he wishes? I take it that was a typo?

not a typo - as i said it was an ignorant statement. why would you stay and type that when you do not know what you are talking about? you have based some half thought out belief on movies you have watched and girls you have tried to impress... find out who he is or humble yourself and ask.

sHnaCk · 10-02-2009 12:10am

fitz0 wrote: »

mmmm because that makes perfect sense...

which part of it did you not undertand?

10-02-2009 12:15am

sHnaCk wrote: »

not a typo - as i said it was an ignorant statement. why would you stay and type that when you do not know what you are talking about? you have based some half thought out belief on movies you have watched and girls you have tried to impress... find out who he is or humble yourself and ask.

Oh yes, because I watch many movies that concern themselves with the topic of the Holy Spirit. And, indeed, the concept of the Holy Spirit has won me many girls, nothing impresses them like it!

You claimed that the Holy Spirit is Gods representative on Earth - that doesn't make sense. Firstly, the Holy Spirit is God, so how could it be His representative when it is Him? Some kind of a personality duality?

fitz0 · 10-02-2009 12:19am

sHnaCk wrote: »

which part of it did you not undertand?

See Jammy Dodgers post. Thats basically what I don't get. The HS is god and Jesus is God => Jesus is the Holy Spirit? So how can the holy spirit be a representative of itself? Wouldn't it just be god on earth?

Also please refrain from calling people ignorant. It's not very nice.

sHnaCk · 10-02-2009 11:23am

fitz0 wrote: »

See Jammy Dodgers post. Thats basically what I don't get. The HS is god and Jesus is God => Jesus is the Holy Spirit? So how can the holy spirit be a representative of itself? Wouldn't it just be god on earth?

Also please refrain from calling people ignorant. It's not very nice.

I sincerely apologise to all and sundry. As you say, not very nice.

sHnaCk · 10-02-2009 11:28am

Instead of me waffling on; please see here for an abridged explanation of who the Holy Spirit is. http://www.everystudent.com/forum/hspirit.html
If there is anything else unclear about His function (which is not entirely covered by this little page) please let me know and I will do my best to inform you.

philologos · 10-02-2009 11:29am

sHnaCk wrote: »

in my humble opinion only somewhat close to the truth. I dont say this condescendingly by the way.
Judaism is correct and true and necessary for christianity... however it is a vica versa theology. Christianity would not exist without the Jews and Judaism will not come to Jesus without christianity. we need each other. unfortunately it is only the evangelical christians who have this revelation. most other "churches" and denominations, including catholicism practice and teach replacement theology. this is apostacy. you need to read, understand and practice romans 9,10 and 11.!!

I believe that the Jews are the chosen people of God, and that Christianity is the continuation of the revelation of God yes, and I believe the Jewish scriptures are 100% accurate. However what do you make of Paul's teaching concerning Gentiles being attached to the tree of Israel, and many of the previous heirs falling away?

Daemonic · 10-02-2009 12:13pm

To answer the OP, I'm of much the same opinion as a few other posters.
There was very probably a Jesus who was a charismatic preacher/healer. Of all the stories and 'miracles' attributed to him I'm sure a few were originally about other similar preachers or healers of the time but were added to the Jesus myth as the brand was bigged up by his followers. No harm in a little creative advertising when trying to convince potential customers.

sHnaCk · 10-02-2009 1:08pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe that the Jews are the chosen people of God, and that Christianity is the continuation of the revelation of God yes, and I believe the Jewish scriptures are 100% accurate. However what do you make of Paul's teaching concerning Gentiles being attached to the tree of Israel, and many of the previous heirs falling away?

Well, thier falling away and rejection of Christ has allowed me as a gentile to be elected and be "ingrafted", a fact that I will be eternally greatful for, and as such this has now placed a burden of responsibility on me/us to reach out to them and impart the Gospel. Not easy when God has declared that he has closed thier ears and eyes to the truth. Hence Luther' error when He went so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.
Luther like most of the planet did not realise that it was not yet thier (the Jews) time to accept Jesus. they did not understand romans 9,10 & 11. that is why Paul said he would offer his own life if only they could see the truth.

Rev. Kitchen · 10-02-2009 2:02pm

Just my opinion i have nt studied the bible and im not religous but....

I like Jesus from what ive heard he was a good guy accepting forgiving kind generous but he was also a rebel. Its just a shame that the "followers" have become so corrupt that to be part of the christian church now allmost seems to be an afront to what jesus thought.

sHnaCk · 10-02-2009 2:08pm

Rev. Kitchen wrote: »

Just my opinion i have nt studied the bible and im not religous but....

I like Jesus from what ive heard he was a good guy accepting forgiving kind generous but he was also a rebel. Its just a shame that the "followers" have become so corrupt that to be part of the christian church now allmost seems to be an afront to what jesus thought.

Please explain or catagorise the corruption that you are referring to. Thanks

Zombrex · 10-02-2009 2:18pm

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

so how could it be His representative when it is Him? Some kind of a personality duality?

If you are around these parts long enough you eventually realise a simple conclusion - They don't know

The teaching of the Trinity is an attempt by Christians to marry what the Old Testament says (God is One) with the teachings of the New Testament which suggest Jesus and God are the same "thing" (for want of a better word).

This is never explained properly in the New Testament, Jesus simply refers to himself, some what abstractly, as being the same as God.

Some have argued that Christians have it wrong, Jesus is not saying he is God, simply that by following him the people are actually following God. Or something. Have fun debating that one with the Christians.

But ultimately it is just words, without any proper understanding. It is like someone writing down

Jake was the daughter of Mary. He was the son of Mary.

A valid question would be how can Jake be the son and daughter of Mary at the same time, and if all you ever get in answer to that question is a different version of "Jake was the daughter of Mary. He was the son of Mary", that is not going to be very satisfactory, nor does it lead one to believe that the person claiming it actually understands it either.

kiffer · 10-02-2009 2:28pm

Jake was transgendered / intersexed...
Or a functioning true hemaphrodite.

What do you make of Jesus Christ?

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