What do you make of Jesus Christ?

fitz0 · 07-02-2009 3:37pm

You say that you are not religiou and yet you assert that

sHnaCk wrote: »

the only reason pagans have any "moral" code, personal or otherwise is due to the truth that God wrote the 10 commandments on our hearts.

So make up your mind whether you believe in god or not. Don't just spout religious babble and then say you don't believe it. And mindblindness as far as I can find originally refers to autism

I do see what you did there SilkySmooth but I don't proselytize, I don't have the right. I can, however, express my opinion as to whether religion is deserving any respect, especially on a dedicated atheism and agnostisism board. I just get a bit annoyed when others come galloping onto this board on the their high horses telling us what we should think. I also get a good chuckle from seeing them getting taken down a peg or two.
I wouldn't use the word oppression to describe atheists at the hands of christians, just misrepresented. And when they take that misrepresented mindset on here, they should be prepared to get a less than friendly reaction.

sHnaCk wrote:

Sheesh - 1st it is historical and irrefutable fact that Jesus existed as a man. stop the ignorance man.

2nd - He did not claim to be God - We were told by God that He is Gods Son - also irrefutable, why irrefutable? the Gospels are corrobarated by secular history with too many eye witnesses and were written within the 70 year myth timespan also endorsed by secular historians.

It is not irrefutable. As religious folks are very fond of saying nothing is irrefutable (as regards evolution most of the time) Also I don't know where you are getting the 70 year thing from but sources would be nice.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 3:46pm

DarkJager wrote: »

*deep breath* As I have said already in this thread, I am not for anybody in this arguement. I do not believe in a god, i do not believe in a satan and I do not believe any of the background to christianity. It is not just christiantity, I am against all forms of religion. As you so perfectly confirmed in an earlier post, its a supression tool - do as we say or you're going to hell. I cannot stand that ill-informed fantastical bull****, or the people who are so deluded to actually preach it like its written fact. This thread has proved that christians are unable to argue against the facts presented against their religion, yet they will spout anything to try and claw back some sort of validity for their beliefs.

Well we agree on something so... I also am against religeon! And Dark... IT IS WRITTEN fact. Try refute any of it. I have not spouted a thing. You say you are not for or against, well the fact that you are a fence sitter is very sad. When talk of ill formed fantastical - sheesh, better you not go there. If you were any way "informed" you would not be a fence sitter. as it says, "...because you are neither hot nor cold I vomit you from my mouth..." now who said that eh?

MrPudding · 07-02-2009 3:49pm

useful_contacts wrote: »

How do you explain RISING FROM THE DEAD?????

Did you know David Copperfield can do real magic?

No? How do you explain THESTATUE OF LIBERTY DISAPPEARING?????

MrP

philologos · 07-02-2009 3:49pm

sHnaCK: Are you a Christian? If so the Scriptures particularly the writings of James and Paul both refer to Christianity as a religion.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 3:53pm

DarkJager wrote: »

OK, how about you prove that somebody has actually gotten rid of the "mindblindess" as you call it, by following the advice in your post? Do you get a certificate or some sort of "welcome to the club" letter once the "mindblindness" is removed? Also, I only asked you about it because it isn't actually a word

true, it is not a word. I used poetic licence to discuss Eph 4:18.:cool:

Húrin · 07-02-2009 3:56pm

jackpalance wrote: »

Thanks a million sukikettle. I wanted to discuss Jesus Christ with like minded people and you turned it into a panto. I suppose it was inevitable.

You should have put an Atheist response only notice on it. At the Christianity forum we find such a system useful for keeping out the trolls from the other side.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:06pm

Jakkass wrote: »

sHnaCK: Are you a Christian? If so the Scriptures particularly the writings of James and Paul both refer to Christianity as a religion.

tut tut

you too smart for me - truth is, translation is easier that way. by all means go look up strongs dictionary etc. to find the " Religious" words in thier original greek. please be mindful that not all words can be transliteration. also, like most people you are committing exegesis so most of what you are saying cannot be trusted or correctly answered.

70 years before legend remark is a well known and normal historical implication. look it up yourself.

DarkJager · 07-02-2009 4:10pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Well we agree on something so... I also am against religeon! And Dark... IT IS WRITTEN fact. Try refute any of it. I have not spouted a thing. You say you are not for or against, well the fact that you are a fence sitter is very sad. When talk of ill formed fantastical - sheesh, better you not go there. If you were any way "informed" you would not be a fence sitter. as it says, "...because you are neither hot nor cold I vomit you from my mouth..." now who said that eh?

I don't see what you are claiming to be written fact, please clarify. And as for sitting on the fence...there is no fence as far as I am concerned. If you want to categorise it, there are people in this world who are so weak of mind they are scared to think there is nothing there watching over them or there for them after they die.These people find comfort and prison within the various religions. It is fear, not faith that makes these people follow religion.

Then you have people like me. I am happy and confident enough in myself and my life to be able to enjoy myself without worrying about what will happen to me when the day arrives that my heart stops and I release my last breath. I believe only in myself and my ability to make my circumstances or the circumstances of those around & close to me, even a small bit better. I don't need guidelines or rules from some fantasy book to do that.

I am who am I am and if you want to define that with a metaphor of a fence, I'm in the next yard.

07-02-2009 4:10pm

Húrin wrote: »

You should have put an Atheist response only notice on it. At the Christianity forum we find such a system useful for keeping out the trolls from the other side.

I was just thinking that. It's ridiculous how most threads (on both sides) all converge onto the one and same topic.

Lads, can ye please keep it on topic - if you want to argue for or against God, just make a new thread.

Have any of you ever seen Apocalypse Now? You know General Kurtz (the guy who goes "insane" in Cambodia)? You know how he has a massive following who worship him as a god? That's how I picture Jesus. Well, obviously without all of the extreme violence and insanity. I picture him as having a massive cult following, a following which "bigged" him up in every possible way. So, in that way, it's impossible to actually know what he was like - because everything was probably exaggerated. Of course, I have no evidence for thinking this, this is just how I think of him.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:11pm

Jesus did not like the Sadducees and the Pharisees becuase of Religion. He called them hypcrites. Now why would he say that about them. hmm...?

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:13pm

Jammy - straight off, you sound like a kid. Does mommy know you on the internet?

philologos · 07-02-2009 4:20pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Jesus did not like the Sadducees and the Pharisees becuase of Religion. He called them hypcrites. Now why would he say that about them. hmm...?

A read of the New Testament seems to suggest that Jesus didn't have an issue with religion, but rather with the human traditions or the Rabbinical Judaism that the Pharisees had begun to form, and indeed being hypocritical and not holding to Jewish teachings with the seriousness that they claimed to.

07-02-2009 4:22pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Jammy - straight off, you sound like a kid. Does mommy know you on the internet?

Yes, actually, she does. She allows me to use it between three and four PM - pity, I've only got fourty minutes left on it now: too bad, isn't it?

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:28pm

Fairplay Jack...

extremely well put.

"...by your traditions you have made the word of God to no affect..."

Jesus by all accounts was a revolutionary leader and servant.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:29pm

LOL.

OK Jammy, if you good you can stay!

07-02-2009 4:32pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

LOL.

OK Jammy, if you good you can stay!

Just a tip sHnaCk, personal attacks (albeit light) won't get you very far in this forum.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:38pm

DarkJager wrote: »

I don't see what you are claiming to be written fact, please clarify. And as for sitting on the fence...there is no fence as far as I am concerned. If you want to categorise it, there are people in this world who are so weak of mind they are scared to think there is nothing there watching over them or there for them after they die.These people find comfort and prison within the various religions. It is fear, not faith that makes these people follow religion.

Then you have people like me. I am happy and confident enough in myself and my life to be able to enjoy myself without worrying about what will happen to me when the day arrives that my heart stops and I release my last breath. I believe only in myself and my ability to make my circumstances or the circumstances of those around & close to me, even a small bit better. I don't need guidelines or rules from some fantasy book to do that.

I am who am I am and if you want to define that with a metaphor of a fence, I'm in the next yard.

Sorry Dark. I almost missed this.

I appologise for categorising you. I dont know you.

The written fact is the Bible Dark. As yet there is not a single piece of evidence against its authenticity. If you have any, except of course your own self centred belief system I would certainly appreciate the teaching.

also - point of fact - religion is always based on control. not fear. fear is the domain of a political spirit, not a relgious one.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 4:40pm

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Just a tip sHnaCk, personal attacks (albeit light) won't get you very far in this forum.

thats fair jammy.

My sincerest apologies:o.

DarkJager · 07-02-2009 4:48pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Sorry Dark. I almost missed this.

I appologise for categorising you. I dont know you.

The written fact is the Bible Dark. As yet there is not a single piece of evidence against its authenticity. If you have any, except of course your own self centred belief system I would certainly appreciate the teaching.

also - point of fact - religion is always based on control. not fear. fear is the domain of a political spirit, not a relgious one.

I wouldn't call the Bible "written fact" sHnaCK. Its the book of christianity, but at the same time islam claims its quran to be truth and I'm sure other faiths feel the same about their scriptures. Their books are not written fact to me at all, they apply only to those within the religion and those who follow it.

As for control, I agree with you there but I feel fear plays a big part in a persons decision to follow a religon. Free thought isn't exactly a friend of religions would you agree?

kiffer · 07-02-2009 4:51pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Sheesh - 1st it is historical and irrefutable fact that Jesus existed as a man. stop the ignorance man.

I did say it was highly possible ... maybe I should have said probable...
I didn't say there was no Jesus (the holy man/teacher/preacher).
It's likely that there was such a man, that may have been killed by the Romans (for tax and sedition reasons (or for annoying the Rabbis although why the Romans should care about that I'm not sure)).
However... in order for you to claim it was an irrefutable Historical fact I'd like you to provide some references, obviously non-biblical ones, those Romans were keen on record keeping... perhaps something from them?

2nd - He did not claim to be God

Bible says otherwise... but you might be right anyway, later followers may have put words in his mouth to plump up the story...

John 10:30-33 wrote:

"I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God,"

- We were told by God that He is Gods Son

Really? by God? or by the Book?
Did God appear to you and tell you?
Or did you read it in a book or hear it from an other human and then feel strongly that it was true?
Strong feelings are ~great~ proof.

- also irrefutable, why irrefutable? the Gospels are corrobarated by secular history with too many eye witnesses and were written within the 70 year myth timespan also endorsed by secular historians.

Could you produce some reliable eye witness testimony of these events?
Romans writing home about events maybe?
Jewish records saying things like "There's this chap wandering round gathering a following of thousands."
I'm sure there were a fair few people wandering round preaching and teaching at the time. Jesus was probably one or more of them.
You've stated that there is evidence... have you seen it? if so produce it. if not drop the irrefutable historical accurate angle.

as for the pilate bit... ah forget it

Well the Pilate bit is a bit off the top of my head... so it should be fairly easy to poke holes in. Feel free to do so.

Asiaprod · 07-02-2009 4:52pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

thats fair jammy.

My sincerest apologies:o.

I am glad you said that.

Moderators Note:
Please refrain from attacking the poster. That will get one banned.

philologos · 07-02-2009 5:01pm

I personally think that Jesus and John the Baptist were both charismatic Jewish preachers probably influenced by the Essenes speaking of an inclusive Jewish theology which would have been frowned upon by the Pharisees and others who believed in the chosen people mentality, Jesus was teaching that He would call people, and that few would be chosen which many Pharasaic Jews of his day could have seen to be utterly offensive, leading to blasphemy charges which essentially became treason charges against the Emperor Tiberius by which he was crucified.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 5:03pm

WOW kiffer.
Let me just take a deep breath and figure out how you did the seperate quotes thing first. I am new to boards.ie you see.

perhaps you could tell me how to do the seperate quotes thing? this way i can give your essay due dilegence

kiffer · 07-02-2009 5:08pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Dawkins is actually ignorant in that he is unable to seperate any of the 3 major religeons and take them on.

The three major religions? Christianity, Islam and Hinduism?
Yeah... he hardly ever attacks the Hindus

kiffer · 07-02-2009 5:13pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

WOW kiffer.
Let me just take a deep breath and figure out how you did the seperate quotes thing first. I am new to boards.ie you see.

perhaps you could tell me how to do the seperate quotes thing? this way i can give your essay due dilegence

just put [ quote] or [ quote=postername] before the quoted text and [ /quote] after it... (i had to add a space between the [ and the q to stop the tag taking affect)

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 5:20pm

Jack, dude, what happened?

Essenes? sheesh, way too much conjecture. interesting, but, smacks of apostasy. I would think that since there had not been a prophet for over 400 years til John it is more than unlikely. If He had any teaching or influence other than the Father He ceases to be who He is.

Bobeagleburger · 07-02-2009 5:22pm

Jesus had the X-factor

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 5:23pm

Thanks kiffer, I'll give it a lash. LOL at the dawkins bit. Dawkins is unfortunately disingenuous to say the least. He lumps islam, judaism and Christianity in the same pile each time. As I said. Disingenuous.

sHnaCk · 07-02-2009 5:32pm

the quotes thing is too high brow for me. I just cant get it.

as for non biblical info try
http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

there are obviously loads more but that will do for now.

philologos · 07-02-2009 5:37pm

sHnaCk wrote: »

Jack, dude, what happened?

Essenes? sheesh, way too much conjecture. interesting, but, smacks of apostasy. I would think that since there had not been a prophet for over 400 years til John it is more than unlikely. If He had any teaching or influence other than the Father He ceases to be who He is.

I believe Christ is the Son of God, I do believe that the Essenes were very similar to the branch of ministry that Christ has offered for example, they lived very withdrawn lifestyles, and in the Gospels it is recorded that Jesus withdrew often by himself for prayer, the Essenes also preached an apocalyptic message. I think that Christianity formed out of this, but I don't see how this ruins Jesus as Messiah and Lord. God had developed the previous Judaism to lead up to when Jesus would preach, just look at how many times Jesus quotes from the Tanakh and the Torah in particular to back up his argument. Wouldn't you agree that Christianity formed out of Judaism? Jesus and the Father are one and the same, I agree with that totally, however what is to say that God had not prepared the theology of the Essenes for when Jesus and John the Baptist were to carry out their ministry?

What do you make of Jesus Christ?

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