BSG 2003 S4E11 - "Sometimes a Great Notion" **FRACKING SPOILERS**

kevmy

First of this episode was way better than I expected it to be. After suffering from slow starts over the last couple of seasons. Good to see it get right back in there.

Dee. Holy fcuk didn't see that coming. While it looked like she was depressed it had seemed that in Lee she had something to live for then all of a sudden some new red paint for the bunk wall.

Happy enough with the reveal of the final cylon. I had presumed it was someone already dead but had bet on Kendra Shaw or Admiral Cain. Glad to see its not Baltar, Starbuck, Roslin or either of the Adamas.

It will be now really interesting to see how all this pans out in the end

jor el wrote: »

The Final 5, being re-born, end up back with the colonials, and with their partially remembering, partially forgetting, of what had gone before, are ultimately responsible for (or connected in some way to) the development of new metal Cylons, based on the ones they created on Earth, though somewhat different.

Programmed somewhere in these new Cylons, were the instructions to make the current Skinjobs. These could just be grown, based on the physiology of the original 13th tribe humans. This would explain the similarity between Skinjobs, and the 13th tribe. Remember, from Razor, that the metal cylons were developing something in the lab where Adama found the captive humans. My guess is this was the experiments they needed to do, in order to develop and grow the 7 models.

That's my take on it anyway. The re-birth of the 5 from Earth, and them not quite remembering the past, could be what gave rise to the various prophecies, "All this happened before, and will happen again", and so on. I think it's all connected to these 5, what they did on Earth, and their re-insertion into the colonies.

I think it's a good shout that they were involved in the creation of the Caprica Cylons.

Not sure what all this means but as long as decent explanations are given I'll be happy enough.

Have no bloody idea what the hell is going on with Starbuck though.

stakey

Something just triggered in my memory here and it might have something to do with Ellen/Starbuck/Earth. If anything it might be highly beneficial to the writers.

When Ellen first appeared she was deemed dead on the colonies. No one remembers administering any care to her. So, what if she did die on the original colonies? It'd make sense, her re-appearance is very similar to that of Starbucks, ie. they just appeared out of fracking nowhere and had really crap stories to cover their miraculous reappearances.

So, could the original five somehow have created some sort of resurrection technology that brings them back any time time they kick the bucket? If so it's possible that Kara when she crashed on Earth was brought back by the same technology (though perhaps she wasn't meant to have).

If this is the case that the original five can ressurect whenever they die, then it'd be a very easy way to bring back Ellen for the final few episodes.

Just a thought....

Volvagia

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

It's better than Voyager anyway, I mean how many times did Janeway throw away a route home to save some space moss and the crew were just like "thats ok, i dont mind, another 70 years in space never seeing my family again suits me".

That's a very good point, it shows just how much more realistic BSG is and how characters. In fact look at the methods of Admiral Cain contrasted with that of voyager.

If these final episodes keep up the dark theme until the end would could have one really fcuked up ending.

Can't wait!

noodler

Voyager had its Admiral Cain. Captain Ramsey was it? Committed genocide to try and get the crew home.

Sherifu

noodler wrote: »

Voyager had its Admiral Cain. Captain Ramsey was it? Committed genocide to try and get the crew home.

You mean Ransom?

noodler

The very one. How did Cain try and get Pegasus to Earth?

All she did was try and continue fighting a losing battle with the Cylons.

nhughes100

Excellant, I got to the end of this thread without reading a single spoiler, now there's willpower. So much going on, firstly the final five - Maybe the final five aren't five at all, they found 250 bodies, all of which were cylon, did 5 get reborn? Did 12? None of the original skinjobs seemed to experience the flashbacks that the 4 Galactica skinjobs did. Surely there was more then 250 people living on this planet. Would the remains last 2000 years? For the final five to be it then there'd have to be a ressurection ship built 2000 years ago?

I don't think we're finished with the time travel aspect of it either. I thought Starbuck was the fifth when I saw her read her own dogtag, I'm not convinced Ellen is the final skinjob, she may be a skinjob, they might all be skinjobs. I think Ellen is being thrown in to cause Tigh to do something crazy later on. Maybe the fleet decides to leave "Earth", Cavel jumps in just as Galactica is prepping for a jump and Tigh somehow gets in the way seeing as he doesn't want to leave Ellen.

Another twist that came into my head was maybe the Cylons were the original race and created Humans, the humans rebelled and caused the cylons to leave and populate the 12 colonies?

Anyway as usual more questions then answers but a very gripping episode, didn't see the Dee thing coming(as if anyone did), looking very much forward to the next two months viewing. Great to have a good series to watch again, had taken to watching re-runs of the X-files on Bravo lately seeing as there was shag all on TV.

jor el

kevmy wrote: »

Have no bloody idea what the hell is going on with Starbuck though.

That's a doozy, isn't it. Was she brought back by whatever Ellen was talking about, "we'll be reborn"? If so, how did it re-create her body, and ship, and how did she get back to the Nebula, without FTL? All very strange. I relaly don't think time travel plays a part in it, or at least I hope it doesn't anyway.

stakey wrote: »

When Ellen first appeared she was deemed dead on the colonies. No one remembers administering any care to her. So, what if she did die on the original colonies? It'd make sense, her re-appearance is very similar to that of Starbucks, ie. they just appeared out of fracking nowhere and had really crap stories to cover their miraculous reappearances.

Ellen turned up, on the Rising Star, after apparently being rescued from Picon, while unconscious, and taken on one of the last transports to leave. Why would they take an unconscious woman, when there were likely many conscious people there? No one on the Rising Star had any knowledge of her, or record of treating her. No one knew where she had come from. That was the first hint that she was a Cylon, and the writers kind of had that idea at the time, though not in the same way that she is now. I'm guessing that she died on Picon, resurrected (somehow) and ended up back with the fleet.

stakey wrote: »

If this is the case that the original five can ressurect whenever they die, then it'd be a very easy way to bring back Ellen for the final few episodes.

I'm full sure we will be seeing Ellen, very soon.

DirkVoodoo

noodler wrote: »

The very one. How did Cain try and get Pegasus to Earth?

I don't recall making that link. What I meant was a crew on a ship, isolated from home and without much hope for either making it back or in BSG's case, making a new one somewhere else, voyager rarely showed the darker side.

And the Ransom storyline was just a way of showing what voyager could have become, but without any real threat of voyager ever becoming like that crew, they just served as a foil to make Voyager (especially Harry Kim!!!) and her crew make look even more saint like.

What I'm saying is that Dualla's reaction was very believable and tragic.

Kiith

At least if Ellen comes dows come back, they can stop switching between herself and Six when Tigh is talking to Six. Sitting there, enjoying staring at the fantastic looking Six, then bam! old Ellen ruining my fantasy. Not nice at all :eek:

pirelli

Kiith wrote: »

At least if Ellen comes dows come back, they can stop switching between herself and Six when Tigh is talking to Six. Sitting there, enjoying staring at the fantastic looking Six, then bam! old Ellen ruining my fantasy. Not nice at all :eek:

The silo's are very liberated about sexuality or just very randy.

Slutmonkey57b

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I don't recall making that link. What I meant was a crew on a ship, isolated from home and without much hope for either making it back or in BSG's case, making a new one somewhere else, voyager rarely showed the darker side.

And the Ransom storyline was just a way of showing what voyager could have become, but without any real threat of voyager ever becoming like that crew, they just served as a foil to make Voyager (especially Harry Kim!!!) and her crew make look even more saint like.

What I'm saying is that Dualla's reaction was very believable and tragic.

Star Trek's guiding philosophy was to show humanity at the best it could possibly be. In that respect, Voyager did well for the first few years.

allj97

hi guys

new here and a huge bsg fan,

is sky 1 the earliest time to catch it on tv ( other than downloads ! )

i noticed that some of your posts are dated before tuesday and was wondering where it is on ? have the sci-fi channel but cant see it on any listings.

noodler

allj97 wrote: »

hi guys

new here and a huge bsg fan,

is sky 1 the earliest time to catch it on tv ( other than downloads ! )

i noticed that some of your posts are dated before tuesday and was wondering where it is on ? have the sci-fi channel but cant see it on any listings.

Friday nights on Sci-Fi in the States. Probably on the net by Saturday if you can't wait.

meep

Kiith wrote: »

At least if Ellen comes dows come back, they can stop switching between herself and Six when Tigh is talking to Six. Sitting there, enjoying staring at the fantastic looking Six, then bam! old Ellen ruining my fantasy. Not nice at all :eek:

What if Ellen IS a Six?

Think about it: Tigh is a cylon but we know that he ages (as Adama has known him 30 years and would have noticed if he did not age).

So, obviously Tigh is a cylon that grows old. What if, when he dies, he gets resurrected into his younger body (20 or so).

Ellen is of a similar age to Tigh (50 ish?). What if when she resurrects she gets put back to her 20 year old body and is a 6.

Therefore, Ellen could be a cylon but not necessarily one of the final 5 (leaving room for Starbuck or someone else to fill that role).

I do prefer the earth as resurrection environment theory to the above but it's something that struck me - especially as Tigh sees Ellen in 6 all the time! On the downside, surely Adama would recognise 6 as a young Ellen?

P

Tristram

noodler

meep wrote: »

What if Ellen IS a Six?

Think about it: Tigh is a cylon but we know that he ages (as Adama has known him 30 years and would have noticed if he did not age).

So, obviously Tigh is a cylon that grows old. What if, when he dies, he gets resurrected into his younger body (20 or so).

Ellen is of a similar age to Tigh (50 ish?). What if when she resurrects she gets put back to her 20 year old body and is a 6.

Therefore, Ellen could be a cylon but not necessarily one of the final 5 (leaving room for Starbuck or someone else to fill that role).

I do prefer the earth as resurrection environment theory to the above but it's something that struck me - especially as Tigh sees Ellen in 6 all the time! On the downside, surely Adama would recognise 6 as a young Ellen?

P

That is a good argument even if you turn out to be wrong. Maybe what Tigh sees in Six isn't just out of lovesick desperation?

Maybe the Six only has that effect on Tigh because he is a Cylon?-Maybe she is projecting or whatever they call it.

On a sidenote, did anyone see the BSG cast for this episode? Christ tell me you're all not that nerdy!

DirkVoodoo

The final 5 are a different race of Cylon to the 7 models we know, aren't they?

I mean, it would seem that the Cylons on Earth (us?) are all unique and individual, not 5 copies repeated over and over. Like the rest I'm only theorizing, the event happened 2000 years ago, they don't say when in Earth's history and last time I checked there were no centurions floating about.

Hopefully it will all make sense in the end, but I don't know where the link is between the cylons we know and the earth cylons. All we know is "the cycle repeats itself". The earth cylons fled Kobol, leaving a trail of clues in their wake while the humans who fled kobol established the 12 colonies, a civilization rose up, AI was created and eventually the cylon slaves overthrew their masters, left for greener pastures and evolved into the humanoid forms we see now.

Talisman

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

The final 5 are a different race of Cylon to the 7 models we know, aren't they?

Yes. Ellen and Tigh passed the cylon detector test. The 7 models knew of the final 5 but their programming was to prevent them from thinking about them. In their encounters with him, Cavil didn't recognise Tyrol or Ellen as cylons. Deanna only knew who the cylons were because she saw their faces - how she knew that Ellen was no longer alive is still unclear.

Hopefully it will all make sense in the end, but I don't know where the link is between the cylons we know and the earth cylons.

The link is the Cylon God - both groups of cylons obviously believe in resurrection and are capable of being reborn. There doesn't appear to be any such reference in the colonial religion.

All we know is "the cycle repeats itself". The earth cylons fled Kobol, leaving a trail of clues in their wake while the humans who fled kobol established the 12 colonies, a civilization rose up, AI was created and eventually the cylon slaves overthrew their masters, left for greener pastures and evolved into the humanoid forms we see now.

Remember the beacon that the base ship picked up? It carried a lethal virus which the colonial humans had only developed an immunity to a couple of hundred years before. Given the fact that the cylon tribe had left it there thousands of years before, it would seem that the beacon was intended to deter the human tribes from following them rather than acting as a marker for the way to Earth.

OVO

After watching last tuesdays BSG, one of the questions that I would like to know is....who nuked the cylons 2000 years ago....me thinks it was the humans!

Also the cylons then are the same cylons now...thats odd (although centurion design is different)...how is that possible? had the old cylons a hand in making the new ones...would make sense if some original cylon survivors and those resurrected went after their killers...maybe the new cylons are just dupes by some 2000 year old cylons to get revenge on an old enemy!

Also starbuck with the hybrids prophecy hanging over her head "you are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end"...is that for the humans or cylons or perhaps an older enemy...we know now that starbuck resurrected and shes not a new cylon...that only leaves one option, she is like the final five a older cylon, perhaps a sleeper agent unlike them!

maybe all of that is wrong

let me know what you think!

Calibos

Interesting OVO and Talisman!

Virus actually intended to deter humans from following and humans nuking them 2000 years ago.

I think you guys may have hit the nail on the head. The cycle thats happened before and will happen again may not refer to humans inventing cylons who nearly wipe them out leaving just enough alive to start again and re-invent cylons aeons later who nearly wipe them out leaving just enough alive.........

It happened before and will happen again could simply be an allegory to the cycle of violence. The show is after all big on the mirroring current events/themes.
Humans Wipe Cylons out, Cylons wipe humans out, Humans wipe cylons out......

Talisman

I remembered something that would contradict my earlier theory but you are right about the cycle, Calibos.

The tomb on Kobol displayed the star constellations as viewed from Earth. This means that there was some interaction between the 13th tribe and the home world of Kobol after they had settled on Earth otherwise the other tribes would have had no knowledge of it.

Battlestar Galactica Timeline

4000 years ago - 13th tribe leaves Kobol.
3600 years ago - Pithia writes about the landing on Earth, includes drawings of Temples on Earth.
3000 years ago - The beacon is left in the nebula.
2000 years ago - The Cylon colony is destroyed in a nuclear holocaust
2000 years ago - The 12 tribes leave Kobol.

The last two points are related I think because it's too much of a coincidence that they both happened in such a close time period.

"All this has happened before, and will happen again"

What if after the Cylons colonised Earth they began to develop resurrection technology which would essentially allow them to live forever. The 12 tribes decided that this could not be allowed and destroyed the colony (the nuclear holocaust of the flash backs). In abhorrence at what they had done and fearing retaliation, the 12 tribes left Kobol vowing not to make the same mistakes again. 2000 years later, the colonials created a Cylon race again, the Cylons rebelled and after the war ended, they established their own home world. 40 years later they returned and wiped out the colonies.

Maybe some of the original cylons survived the holocaust and headed for the stars taking the resurrection technology with them - this would explain how the final five were living amongst the colonials. 40 years seems a very short period of time for the current Cylons to develop their own skin jobs and resurrection technology, even if the were working on it during the Cylon War.

For their own protection when one of the original cylons is reborn it has no memory of the past, but the AI that controlled/maintained the system did not forget and some how made itself known to the new generation of Cylons. This is how they know about the final five but were programmed not to think about them. The current cycle is the AI/Cylon God exacting vengeance for the holocaust 2000 years previous.

stakey

Interesting Talisman, that last ep really has got the gears ticking over here. Thinking way too much about this.

What if there was some major differences between the tribes on Kobol, the Cylons leave and head towards Earth. Much like the Cylon war in the new colonies ambassadors are sent back and forward between Earth and Kobol. Kobol is a much more powerful colony and learns that the Cylons have come up with a way to ressurect themselves making themselves essentially unbeatable as long as that technology exists. They have also begun to create an army of cylon centurions.

Fearing that Kobol will be attacked, humanity launches an attack on Earth, wiping out the Thirteenth Colony and in doing so hopefully wiping out the threat to their civilisation.

The tribes of Kobol fearing a possible retaliation flee Kobol to the stars so they can't be found by the survivors.

I'm being really speculative here, but what if the original five models were important socio/political/scientific/religious leaders who somehow knew the holocaust was going to occur and prepared for it?

This would cover Ellen's statement that all was in place for their ressurection. Now suppose they had the means to be ressurected into Kobolian society (anywhere in space). Could they have instigated the creation of cylon technology and the other seven models in the twelve colonies in a plan to recreate their lost civilisation and also destroy humanity in revenge for their civilisations destruction and then return to Earth or settle a new planet?

Too many ideas! Too many questions to be answered in nine episodes!

Zith

Anyone else see the coincidence about Adama's fox swimming to sea story and then Tigh heading off out into the water? Like he hinted for him to do it.

noodler

I though Saul was going to kill himself first to be honest.

Scruff

io9 has a good roundup of Battlestar goings-on

Talisman

Zith wrote: »

Anyone else see the coincidence about Adama's fox swimming to sea story and then Tigh heading off out into the water? Like he hinted for him to do it.

It's linked to the title of the episode.

... the day before we began writing, I flashed on my favorite American novel, Sometimes a Great Notion by Ken Kesey. It is a much underappreciated and towering work. Anyone interested in fine literature and great story telling should read Kesey’s masterpiece.

The book opens with a childish rhyme that enunciates the theme of the book and what to me was the theme of our show. “Sometimes I live in the country. Sometimes I live in the town. Sometimes I get a great notion. To jump in the river and drown.”

In Kesey’s book, the hero --Hank Stamper, an Oregon logger -- does constant battle with the river that runs past his home, a river that has claimed the lives of pets and loved ones and comes to symbolize the vast and indifferent power of the universe that both gives life and cruelly snatches it away again. In his notes to himself as he was writing the book, Kesey scribbled something that has become one of the shorthand phrases Brad and I use while writing scripts. Kesey wrote: “Try to make Hank quit.” By that he meant: take this strong, heroic character and pile one misfortune on his back after another until he finally falls. What happens in that moment? Does he despair? Does he get up and go on? For me, there is no more defining moment for a character.

We tried to do this with almost all the characters in this episode: Adam, Laura, Kara, Lee. We ripped everything out from under them then sat back to see what they would do. What were their individual breaking points? And if they did break, would they stay broken or grope toward a recovery...

Taken from the Chicago Tribune blog: 'Battlestar Galactica's' Ron Moore addresses the shocking developments of 'Sometimes a Great Notion'

mrak

There are a lot of interesting theories in this thread but I hope the actual plot is a bit simpler and easier to get your head around than some of the ones above. The series is amazing and I'd like it to have an elegant ending and not one that you'd need maps, timelines and some sillmarillion-scholar nerddom to understand.

I watch it with my wife and I think if it went all nerdy and obscure at the final hurdle I'd be okay with it, but wouldn't be able to get her to watch a sci-fi series in a hurry again.

lostexpectation

why are they in their mind )in adamas mind)so willing to cooperate with the their new alllies.

The Gnome

Not sure if it's been mentioned but I found t a bit odd that in the flashbacks to their previous lives both Tyrol, Saul and Ellen were their current age. Probably just for the sake of simplicity but maybe.....